Covidiots thread

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Feb 4, 2009
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I don’t ever expect a “cure” for Covid. We’ve been trying to create anti-viral drug treatments for various diseases for decades and it’s really difficult. The best we have for the flu are drugs like Tamiflu which merely reduce the severity and duration.

We mostly don’t have antivirals that work with the same efficacy as antibiotics on bacteria which is what it seems he would prefer.

Now is the chance simply because the revenue from such a treatment would be enormous it could happen and that could change everything.
The current vaccines are a great example they can spin up a vaccination for nearly anything using the same processes and the time would be unthinkably short (historically).
Also who knows didn't one of the older vaccines also prevent a bunch of kidney failure or something. Maybe it was the polio vaccine? Something about people got infect by it or something similar and didn't realize it and that infection fucked up their immune system somehow. Decade after everyone was vaccinated kidney failure dropped unexpectedly.
*I know this is very vague*
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,601
26,720
136
So the next time your doctor suggests you take something ask him to show you his research.
"The proportion of US physicians engaged in research has decreased from a peak of 4.7% of the overall physician workforce in the 1980s to approximately 1.5% today. "

Look you posted something that was weak and you couldn't support it. You should stop digging the hole deeper.
 
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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,037
2,615
136
My point was that the vaccines are not working as we had hoped and that, in my opinion, there should be a greater emphasis on treatment and other forms of prevention. I used those 2 drugs as examples we all would recognize, not to say that they are effective as treatments but illustrate how so many were quick to say they would not or could not work, even while there were and are still clinical trials in progress. The reasons as to how those drugs work and why they were selected for clinical trials are available to anyone. I'm also well aware of the FDA approval of Sotrovimab and the ongoing studies for use as a prophylactic. While vaccines remain the primary option for covid prevention, mAbs are an effective treatment for those already infected, and at least one is showing the potential to prevent infection, illness and death by the delta variant on par with the current vaccines.

The current vaccines are not going to get us to herd immunity and are proving to not be effective enough against the delta variant at preventing infection, transmission, illness or death that we can count on vaccines alone to give us a chance at returning to normal. This point was not based on my own research but the opinions of the head of the CDC and that of the Chief Investigator on the University of Oxford COVID-19 Vaccine (ChAdOx-1 n-CoV-19) trials.

I don't mean to sound anti-vax in any way. Vaccines have eliminated and/or controlled some horrible infectious diseases and will continue to do so. It's just quite apparent that the current crop of covid vaccines aren't living up to expectations.

Since I presented no research or data of my own, my education level, areas of expertise, work experience or any other personal information is irrelevant and off limits to discussion on a public, worldwide forum.
The current vaccines for COVID are actually more effective than well established vaccines like the flu shot, shingles shot, etc. Those shots are in the 50-60% efficacy range. Even shots for things like HepA and B only have uptakes in the 80% range after the full course.
The idea that the COVID vaccine is somehow a failure is asinine. Right now in my state, the ratio of vaccinated to unvaccinated patients hospitalized with COVID is >9:1. That's pretty darn good. To put it simply, the only reason we're still in this mess is stupid people ruining life for the rest of us.

So the next time your doctor suggests you take something ask him to show you his research.
"The proportion of US physicians engaged in research has decreased from a peak of 4.7% of the overall physician workforce in the 1980s to approximately 1.5% today. "
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. All doctors generally practice using the best available research. However, its unlikely a specific doctor is studying your specific disease and so its stupid to expect all doctors to be able to pull up their personal papers on your personal disease. All doctors should be practicing using the best available research and data. Its almost by force actually because insurance companies do monitor requests for testing and medications and won't pay for things in general that don't have evidence behind it. Basically if a doctor is out there doing stuff not supported by the research and something bad happens leading to a lawsuit, he has zero defense and will lose the case hard. In malpractice suits, its doctors testifying against other doctors in a nutshell and the only thing to really talk about is what the evidence shows and the person involved either didn't follow it or did. You can at any time ask a doctor to show you the data behind a recommendation and they should be able to show you an article or guideline statement supporting his recommendation. However expecting your doctor to personally be researching your disease is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

As for the percentage of docs doing active research or not, that has to do with the distribution of academic physicians vs private practice physicians. Some docs go into academics. They do it because it's slower paced, they don't have to see as many patients and they have freedom to study things they think are interesting. However it pays less, there's pressure to compete and apply for grants, and there's a lot of uncompensated work you have to do like give talks, lectures, QI work for your organization, national committee work, etc etc. I think the pressure to apply for grants is probably the major detractor academic medicine and so many people go into private practice which is a different lifestyle: you see patients pretty much exclusively but your get paid nicely and don't have any uncompensated side work to deal with. There's also the fact that training programs are increasingly slanted towards private practice careers because of doctor shortages nationwide.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,626
8,518
136
When you can't debate the message, attack the messenger.

ad ho·mi·nem
/ˌad ˈhämənəm/

adjective

  1. (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.


That wasn't an attack, though, was it? You made a claim without any supporting evidence or argument, in effect asking people to just take your word for something - which makes it reasonable to ask about your qualifications for making such a claim.
 

RY62

Senior member
Mar 13, 2005
890
153
106
The current vaccines for COVID are actually more effective than well established vaccines like the flu shot, shingles shot, etc. Those shots are in the 50-60% efficacy range. Even shots for things like HepA and B only have uptakes in the 80% range after the full course.
The idea that the COVID vaccine is somehow a failure is asinine. Right now in my state, the ratio of vaccinated to unvaccinated patients hospitalized with COVID is >9:1. That's pretty darn good. To put it simply, the only reason we're still in this mess is stupid people ruining life for the rest of us.

The data you're looking at includes pre-delta variant stats. The numbers are changing daily due to reduced efficiency against delta. When the guy who is Chief Investigator on the University of Oxford COVID-19 Vaccine (ChAdOx-1 n-CoV-19) trials says the delta has eliminated the possibility of herd immunity, it's probably not bs. Vaccinated folks are still being infected and spreading covid. The bigger problem is that many vaxxed people don't seem to realize how at risk they are to catch and spread the disease. Vaxxed or not we should still wear a mask, distance and wait for the real solution.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,701
3,727
136
The data you're looking at includes pre-delta variant stats. The numbers are changing daily due to reduced efficiency against delta. When the guy who is Chief Investigator on the University of Oxford COVID-19 Vaccine (ChAdOx-1 n-CoV-19) trials says the delta has eliminated the possibility of herd immunity, it's probably not bs. Vaccinated folks are still being infected and spreading covid. The bigger problem is that many vaxxed people don't seem to realize how at risk they are to catch and spread the disease. Vaxxed or not we should still wear a mask, distance and wait for the real solution.

The real solution like all getting the vaccine and not worrying about catching covid19 because it’s no longer a significant threat? At this point the disease is endemic and we’ll need to just accept seriously reduced mortality and disease severity thanks to the vaccines.
 
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RY62

Senior member
Mar 13, 2005
890
153
106
That wasn't an attack, though, was it? You made a claim without any supporting evidence or argument, in effect asking people to just take your word for something - which makes it reasonable to ask about your qualifications for making such a claim.
You should probably go to the beginning and read all of my posts on the subject. I presented evidence from top experts in the field and gave my opinion that I was in agreement with them. My qualifications for having an opinion are no more or less than any other shit poster on the forum. If you have anything of value to add the topic at hand, feel free to post but my personal life history is not open for discussion on this forum.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,626
8,518
136
The data you're looking at includes pre-delta variant stats. The numbers are changing daily due to reduced efficiency against delta. When the guy who is Chief Investigator on the University of Oxford COVID-19 Vaccine (ChAdOx-1 n-CoV-19) trials says the delta has eliminated the possibility of herd immunity, it's probably not bs. Vaccinated folks are still being infected and spreading covid. The bigger problem is that many vaxxed people don't seem to realize how at risk they are to catch and spread the disease. Vaxxed or not we should still wear a mask, distance and wait for the real solution.


Seems as if there's still some debate on that question, because though vaccinated people still have a high level of the virus in their noses, they don't spread the virus for as long a time as do the unvaccinated. But, sure, I agree that even when vaccinated caution is advisable, especially if you are in a group at high risk of bad outcomes from COVID.

The thing I'd quibble with, is what do you mean by "the real solution"? What is that likely to be? Other than just everyone being vaccinated and the spread being significantly reduced with fewer people who get it ending up dead from it.

 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,601
26,720
136
You should probably go to the beginning and read all of my posts on the subject. I presented evidence from top experts in the field and gave my opinion that I was in agreement with them. My qualifications for having an opinion are no more or less than any other shit poster on the forum. If you have anything of value to add the topic at hand, feel free to post but my personal life history is not open for discussion on this forum.

I didn't attack you. But I take your point, you've got no expertise you're willing to share that informs your opinion and I'll give your opinion the weight that entails.
 
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RY62

Senior member
Mar 13, 2005
890
153
106
The real solution like all getting the vaccine and not worrying about catching covid19 because it’s no longer a significant threat? At this point the disease is endemic and we’ll need to just accept seriously reduced mortality and disease severity thanks to the vaccines.
What makes you think that covid would not continue to be a serious threat if everyone were vaccinated with the currently available vaccines?
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,626
8,518
136
You should probably go to the beginning and read all of my posts on the subject. I presented evidence from top experts in the field and gave my opinion that I was in agreement with them. My qualifications for having an opinion are no more or less than any other shit poster on the forum. If you have anything of value to add the topic at hand, feel free to post but my personal life history is not open for discussion on this forum.


You said

"I have much more hope in this line of research than the current crop of vaccines. "

Nowhere did you provide evidence as to why anyone should agree with you on that.
 
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RY62

Senior member
Mar 13, 2005
890
153
106
Seems as if there's still some debate on that question, because though vaccinated people still have a high level of the virus in their noses, they don't spread the virus for as long a time as do the unvaccinated. But, sure, I agree that even when vaccinated caution is advisable, especially if you are in a group at high risk of bad outcomes from COVID.

The thing I'd quibble with, is what do you mean by "the real solution"? What is that likely to be? Other than just everyone being vaccinated and the spread being significantly reduced with fewer people who get it ending up dead from it.


At this time, I'm just coming to the realization that the current vaccines aren't the solution we were hoping for. What will be the solution remains to be seen. Perhaps there will be another type of vaccine and we can start the immunization process again or maybe some of the treatment options being studied will offer better prophylactic protections than the vaccines. I can't see the future but time will tell what the real solution is.
 

RY62

Senior member
Mar 13, 2005
890
153
106
You said

"I have much more hope in this line of research than the current crop of vaccines. "

Nowhere did you provide evidence as to why anyone should agree with you on that.
I also have much hope that you'll choose to add something of value or find someone else to harass and I'll not provide evidence as to why anyone should agree with me on that either.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,626
8,518
136
I also have much hope that you'll choose to add something of value or find someone else to harass and I'll not provide evidence as to why anyone should agree with me on that either.


You start making statements and engaging in arguments, then call all responses 'harrasment'.

Clearly you are another troll for the 'ignore' list.

Too many recently have been taking the title of this tread as meaning "a thread for covidiots to post in"
 
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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,701
3,727
136
What makes you think that covid would not continue to be a serious threat if everyone were vaccinated with the currently available vaccines?



Along with countless articles and studies saying the same thing. You can do what you want, hide in your house or whatever but I’m back to living my life as normal. If I get exposed so be it, the data says that the current mRNA vaccines offer enough protection that public life is now within my risk tolerance.
 
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Reactions: DarthKyrie

VW MAN

Senior member
Jun 27, 2020
677
861
96
"Previous studies suggest that berberine, an isoquinoline alkaloid, has shown various biological activities that may help against COVID-19 and SARS, including antiviral, anti-allergy and inflammation, hepatoprotection against drug- and infection-induced liver injury, as well as reducing oxidative stress."
Getting someone to further study berberine is the problem. Pharmaceutical companies have zero interest in studying herbal formulas because they can't make money off of them.
So the next time your doctor suggests you take something ask him to show you his research.
"The proportion of US physicians engaged in research has decreased from a peak of 4.7% of the overall physician workforce in the 1980s to approximately 1.5% today. "

You keep putting statements in quotes without any sited sources!! Who the fuck is saying those things you are quoting?

And you conveniently ignored my question earlier about how you conduct your research, at this point I do not think you even need to bother answering because your posts are telling everyone here with a half a brain that you are a big idiot and your research comes from propagandized Q memes and other such bullshit!

You can fuck off now, thank you very much!
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
So what? Seriously? Vaccines are a part of the solution but they don't appear to be the "one real" solution at all.

Experts are now saying that the Delta variant makes herd immunity impossible.

Reaching herd immunity is “not a possibility” with the current Delta variant, the head of the Oxford Vaccine Group has said.
Giving evidence to MPs on Tuesday, Prof Sir Andrew Pollard said the fact that vaccines did not stop the spread of Covid meant reaching the threshold for overall immunity in the population was “mythical”. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ant-renders-herd-immunity-from-covid-mythical


We currently have nothing that will completely stop transmission. The CDC says the viral load of vaccinated people with breakthrough cases is the same as in unvaccinated people.

Documents shared at the confidential congressional briefing also show that vaccine efficacy has taken a hit from delta. The CDC estimates efficacy may be 75 to 85 percent against the new variant rather than 94 percent effective or more against the original COVID-19 strain.
There are 35,000 symptomatic breakthrough cases each week, the presentation shows.
Up to 15 percent of deaths in May were among vaccinated people, the presentation shows. That contrasts with previous public CDC data showing deaths occur in a tiny number of vaccinated people, just 0.0005 percent. https://www.rollcall.com/2021/07/30/cdc-report-shows-vaccinated-people-can-spread-covid-19/


Even if everyone were vaxxed, covid is not going away. People will still be spreading and dying from covid. It is time to turn a much greater focus toward treatment options and nothing should be off the table especially off label trials of existing drugs which have been proven safe. Before anyone tries to twist my words, I don't recommend at home trials of any "prevention, cure, etc" you've researched on TikTok. Leave the trials to the experts.

Yeah, I agree herd immunity isn't possible with delta. We may need an updated vaccine for that.

But where I don't agree is this unseen slide which says UP TO 15% of COVID deaths in May were of vaccinated people. "Up to" means there was uncertainty in the data and that 15% was considered the top end of a range. But it conflicts with raw data from the states which is recent.


  • The data reported from these states indicate that breakthrough cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are extremely rare events among those who are fully vaccinated against COVID-19 (see Figure 1). The rate of breakthrough cases reported among those fully vaccinated is below 1% in all reporting states, ranging from 0.01% in Connecticut to 0.54% in Arkansas.
    • The hospitalization rate among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 ranged from effectively zero (0.00%) in California, Delaware, D.C., Indiana, New Jersey, New Mexico, Vermont, and Virginia to 0.06% in Arkansas. (Note: Hospitalization may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)
    • The rates of death among fully vaccinated people with COVID-19 were even lower, effectively zero (0.00%) in all but two reporting states, Arkansas and Michigan where they were 0.01%. (Note: Deaths may or may not have been due to COVID-19.)

All that means that if we had a 100% vaccination rate, deaths and hospitalizations would be rare. This would be the equivalent of the flu, if not less deadly.
 

Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,890
3,616
136
At this time, I'm just coming to the realization that the current vaccines aren't the solution we were hoping for. What will be the solution remains to be seen. Perhaps there will be another type of vaccine and we can start the immunization process again or maybe some of the treatment options being studied will offer better prophylactic protections than the vaccines. I can't see the future but time will tell what the real solution is.
"Some other kind of treatment options" for viruses have been under research for decades, with minimal success other than helping mitigate some specific symptoms. The only massive breakthroughs have been in the relatively recent development of vaccines that work against specific viruses. By all means we should continue research, but assuming anything new for treatment options being imminent (or even likely in the next decade) other than highly effective vaccines is just wishful thinking at best.

Something like remdesivir may have moderate efficacy in treating and helping avoid death from COVID, at a cost of >$3,000 per patient, with no new improved version likely in sight. Ventilators and supplemental oxygen treatment are also fairly effective in reducing chance of death in severe cases, as long as hospitals aren't overloaded. But in comparison, even against Delta variant, existing vaccines are vastly more effective, and orders of magnitude cheaper, and safer.

And yes, we are likely to get into a cycle of having to put out a new vaccine update / booster to better target latest variant virus, but the vaccines really are a miracle compared to all other options and all other likely options in the foreseeable future.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,017
8,544
136
WTF Clapton? He's now written an antivax song.

This Has Gotta Stop': Eric Clapton Drops Apparent Anti-Vax Anthem

Between him and Van Morrison I've lost respect for a couple of my classic rock favorites.

You know, between being an anti-vaxxer, ranting on stage about how England is for whites only and all the foreigners need to leave, and writing an entire album about how much he wanted to fuck his best friend’s wife then cheating on her multiple times after finally getting her, I’m starting to think that Eric Clapton might just be fucking asshole
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,583
2,942
136
"Previous studies suggest that berberine, an isoquinoline alkaloid, has shown various biological activities that may help against COVID-19 and SARS, including antiviral, anti-allergy and inflammation, hepatoprotection against drug- and infection-induced liver injury, as well as reducing oxidative stress."
Getting someone to further study berberine is the problem. Pharmaceutical companies have zero interest in studying herbal formulas because they can't make money off of them.
Of course they can make money off them. Just cause theyre natural products doesnt mean they cant be patented. Paclitaxel is a frontline chemotherapy agent, it's a compound from the bark of the pacific yew tree. Completely natural. Organic even!

It was patented just fine, and is a frontline chemotherapeutic because it fucking works and someone thought it might work and proved it with carefully designed clinical trials. Same story with vincristine (orchids) for leukemia and other cancers.

If berberine worked, there's nothing stopping a pharma company (at least to my miniscule understanding of the IP landscape) to patent it and put it through clinical trials to prove it works.

And there's the rub. Clinical trials are the most expensive part of drug development; no company will undertake them unless there's there's considerable probability of recouping their costs.

So if it did work, and was proved to work, it would no longer be an "herbal remedy", it would be a drug. And it wouldn't be cheap, because proving something works is fucking expensive.

The only time proven drugs are cheap is after they've gone off patent or they're so old they're essentially backdoored into approval. If I recall, no one has ever run a clinical trial on aspirin (willow bark) because by the time the laws were written it was so plentiful that no one would try to do so.

Supplements or natural remedies that have been proven to work are just called drugs. And if they haven't been proven to work, they're snake oil bullshit.

That's how our society should work.

Source: I have a PhD in chemistry and I do drug development for a living.
 
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