CPU speed- Please read

jmitchell

Senior member
Oct 10, 2001
212
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When a new processor core is put into production, such as the new 'northwood' core, is there a technical reason for why we will see a steady output of faster cpu's as time goes by? When the .13 micron northwood will undoubtedly bee seen at 3ghz+, why will we not see them until much later this year? What physical differences could there possibly be between todays .13 micron northwood at 2.2ghz, and septembers (future) .13 micron northwood at 3ghz? Maybe this is a very amateurish question to ask, but I am too lazy to go look elsewhere for an easy, logical answer. Is the release schedule based solely on marketing strategies, and $$? Or is there some kind of supposed 'refinement' they make to their processes as they go along, that magically allows the chips to run faster? I'd like to know....
 

MustPost

Golden Member
May 30, 2001
1,923
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For one thing they usually manage to become more experienced in the new manufacturing methods at the .13um. Thus yields increase. They could probobly put out 3GHz even 4 right now, but most of them one the wafer wouldn't be able to scale that high.

Also there are revisions that go unannounced.
 

Rand

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,071
1
81
Marketing, fabrication tweaks on their existing .13u process, yields improving over time etc etc.
 

Ronin

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2001
4,563
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0
server.counter-strike.net
I concur on the marketing standpoint. The slow influx of higher speed CPUs allow for greater revenue over a period of time than if they simply flooded the market with multiple speed CPUs with the same core design. It's always been that way, but obviously much more so in the past 2 years or so as the CPU wars have heated up considerably.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
I disagree with the marketing answer.

Although it may happen that occassionally products are released more slowly due to marketing reasons, this is practically never the case. The CPU market is extremely competitive, the market window for a product is very tight. Due to the nature of the industry, performance is time which is money. By this I mean if you have a product that could, for example, outperform everyone else by 40%, then you can price it higher than everyone else. But if you wait and hold it back from public sale, then it's value only decreases as everyone catches up to you. There may be rare cases where you are trying to keep products within a particular marketing segment and thus you only release speed increases to a lower end product gradually as you improve the higher end, but there's no reason not to ship the fastest possible version of your flagship product as soon as you can.

There are several reasons why semiconductor products get gradually faster with time on the same process technology: manufacturing improvements, reliability improvements, and design improvements. The first two are tied together. When a process is first released, there is usually still tweaks that can be made to improve performance. The manufacturing team tries various experiments and tweaks the huge number of variables at their control and can gradually improve the transistor switching speed with time. Similarly, they may tweak the process to improve reliability at a given voltage, thus enabling higher voltages to be used with the design while not compromising reliability. Finally, the design team will "peel the onion back" and figure out what the frequency limiters are of a given design on a process and then fix those paths with design changes.

For example, I worked on the Pentium P54CS (Pentium 133-200MHz) design back in 1995-6 on a 3.3V/0.35um process. We released the design at 133MHz and then continued to tweak the design for more than a year gradually improving the reliability, the manufacturability, and the frequency. In the industry, this is generally done by running the design at the maximum rated frequency on a very accurate tester and then increasing the frequency until the processor starts generating errors. You then use either complex machinery or testability features within the design (or a combination of the two), to figure out what is causing the error at that frequency. When you discover the cause of the problem, you then try to figure out a way to fix the circuit so that it will run at a higher frequency without generating errors. Then you move on to the next one, hence the term "peeling the onion". Similarly, the process guys were busy improving the 0.35um process to improve transistor performance by changing the process recipe. And in parallel the reliability team were working with the process guys to improve reliability allowing increases to the design voltage (which improves the transistors switching characteristics at the cost of reduced long-term reliability). By the time we were done, the P54CS design was capable of running in excess of 200MHz on the same (albeit tweaked) 0.35um process.

This increase was not at all due to the marketing team determining when we start production of a given frequency - about all we ever heard from them was "when can we ship the 166MHz?" and "can you finish sooner?" and "the 166MHz Pentium processors are selling great, can it run at 200MHz? How soon can you get it working at 200MHz?". In reality, it was due to hard work, a lot of patience, some creativity, and a lot of teamwork between a lot of different groups.

Patrick Mahoney
Microprocessor Design Engineer
Intel Corp.
 

jmitchell

Senior member
Oct 10, 2001
212
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0
thank you all for your answers! I found them informative, but at the same time, I remain a bit skeptical. I believe that based on the process described by Patrick, cpu releases, relating to their speed/date realeased, would not follow such a linear pattern. I believe that we would see more spectacular speed increases as engineers overcome crucial weak points that limit processor speeds. For example, if problems limit current speeds to 2.2ghz, is it not possible that one single weak point is causing that limitation, and that alleviating that problem could instantly allow the chip to reach 3ghz? In such a case, I am certain we would not see a 3ghz chip... but rather the standard 2.3 and 2.4 that we expect...
 

dajeepster

Golden Member
Apr 15, 2001
1,974
16
81
I agree with PM 100%... I work in the engineering/manufacturing industry and we are constantly finding ways to improve our products (hand held radios). improvements come in the form of programming tweaks, manufacturing process, new hardware in the industry that makes the process more accurate and yielding a better product.

let's compare it to the auto industry... if we went by the analogy that we should have 3Ghz chips, then that would mean the same as everycar made should go at least 200mph... ok .. ok... bad analogy... but I would like my to do 200mph
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81


<< thank you all for your answers! I found them informative, but at the same time, I remain a bit skeptical. I believe that based on the process described by Patrick, cpu releases, relating to their speed/date realeased, would not follow such a linear pattern. I believe that we would see more spectacular speed increases as engineers overcome crucial weak points that limit processor speeds. For example, if problems limit current speeds to 2.2ghz, is it not possible that one single weak point is causing that limitation, and that alleviating that problem could instantly allow the chip to reach 3ghz? In such a case, I am certain we would not see a 3ghz chip... but rather the standard 2.3 and 2.4 that we expect... >>



Some examples of what Patrick said: Athlons came out in groups of a few hundred MHz. I don't know why the XP 2000 came out by itself, but if you look at sandpile you will see that on Mar 6, 2000, 900, 950, and 1000 MHz athlons were released and on Jun 5, 2000, 750, 800, 850, 900, 950, and 1000 MHz TBirds were released. (IIRC, slower, 700mhz slotA ones "escaped" earlier)

On Oct 9, 2001, 1333, 1400, 1466, and 1533 MHz XP were released. this, to me, appears to be signs of breakthroughs.

the P54 was very linear in speed increases, but the P55 made some jumps in clock speed.
 

Hoo

Junior Member
Dec 13, 2001
7
0
0
Could it be that the 1333, 1400, 1466, and 1533 MHz XP are coming from the same die, i.e. no tweak/improvement, except that they are rated as such based on their quality and ability to perform at those speed?

If so, this is a different phenomenon all together.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81


<< I found them informative, but at the same time, I remain a bit skeptical. I believe that based on the process described by Patrick, cpu releases, relating to their speed/date realeased, would not follow such a linear pattern. >>

I'm not sure whether or not to be offended by this statement. jmitchell, whether or not you are skeptical this is the way things work. This is the way things really are. I have no motivation to lie about my work - Intel doesn't pay me to post here.

They very rarely jump substantially because everyone does their job correctly. I described the process of speed path debug... for there to be a huge jump in frequency, it would have to mean that one (or just a few) circuits were holding back the rest of the chip from a substantially higher frequency. For this to occur, one of the designers would have had to really goof. And in the rare cases where this does happen, they are caught during the silicon debug process prior to release. Because everyone is designing to a target frequency, all of the circuits should run at approximately the same speed. There may be a few that don't due to modelling issues or possibly minor issues in the way that design was created, and these can be tweaked up with small changes.

What you find with speed path debug is that you get initially large jumps with very little effort (correcting mistakes), but as time goes on the gains gradually get harder and require more time and effort for lower return until eventually the gains are not worth the effort. Somewhere after the intial easy gains, the chip is released to manufacturing and from that point on, the design is merely tweaked. The gains get more gradual until at some point there no point in further tweaking and you wait for the next design to appear which may be an architectural revision, a compaction, or a process shrink.

The same occurs with manufacturing process development. Companies generate new process components for several years before the process is released for manufacturing, and the initial parts tend to be slower than the older process that they are replacing. So a 0.25um process will initially be quite a bit slower than a 0.35um process that it will eventually replace. And then gradually it is tweaked. The big gains come early - before the process is even used commercially. After that it's just gradual improvements.

For big jumps to occur, either people have to be making mistakes or you have to have a new paradigm. And engineers are well educated and there is a lot of peer review so the former is fortunately fairly rare, and the latter has not happened for as long as we've been using silicon. Silicon is evolutionary not revolutionary.


<< For example, if problems limit current speeds to 2.2ghz, is it not possible that one single weak point is causing that limitation, and that alleviating that problem could instantly allow the chip to reach 3ghz? >>

Not unless someone messed up badly. The way this works is that you have a process team designing a new process technology and they have a target for transistor parameters. The design team uses this data to set a goal for the design, say 2GHz. So, they design using the transistor parameters to run at 2GHz and all circuitry on the chip needs be designed to run at 2GHz or faster. When the chip is finished it should run at 2GHz. And if you want it to run at 3GHz you need to redesign all of the circuitry that is slower than 3GHz. But that should be nearly every major circuit on the chip because to design circuitry to run faster than the target just wastes power. So since engineers always try to pad their designs slightly, there may be only a few circuits holding the design back from 2.1GHz, and you can figure out what they are and fix them. But there will a lot more holding it back from 2.2GHz and you can maybe figure out these and with a lot of effort fix them. But at some point you will hit the limit where practically every circuit on the chip is holding you back, and there's no way you can fix them all, or if you could then it's easier just to redesign the chip from scratch.


<< In such a case, I am certain we would not see a 3ghz chip... but rather the standard 2.3 and 2.4 that we expect... >>


Why? What possible reason would you have to do this? It will cost you no more to make this hypothetical 3GHz chip than a 2.4GHz, and at 3GHz and, due to this jump that you described, you'd be miles ahead of the competition. You could charge a huge amount of money for it, and people would buy it. For data centers, space is money and you buy the fastest thing that you can whatever it costs. And if you are fast enough, you can start to move into the high-end space occupied by the $50k+ products (like PA-RISC, Alpha, Power4, UltraSPARC) and charge even more money because you are so much faster than these high-end workstation designs. Why would you trickle the release? Why would you deliberately let everyone catch up with you?
 

Loba

Junior Member
Nov 10, 2001
15
0
0
it is all well and good releasing so called 3ghz or 4 ghz but Intel need to get that performance issue right ,there current batch boasts higher cpu ratings in terms of GHz or Mhz but they lack the performance to say a lesser rated processor from AMD .I think the whole concept of GHz etc has lost its track and too much marketing or brainwashing is happening.

just a thought

 

rimshaker

Senior member
Dec 7, 2001
722
0
0


<< Patrick Mahoney
Microprocessor Design Engineer
Intel Corp.
>>



Wow pm, i had no idea you were the real brains around here till i saw your day job I'm trying to get into Intel right now actually... phone interrogation soon... wish me luck for a on-site interview, i'll need it for sure... tips are welcome, lol. I hope AMD comes calling soon too, dunno which i'd like to work for at the end though.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81


<< I'm trying to get into Intel right now actually... phone interrogation soon... wish me luck for a on-site interview, i'll need it for sure... tips are welcome, lol. I hope AMD comes calling soon too. >>

AMD called for a 2nd interview the day after I accepted my offer for Intel. At that time they didn't do microprocessor design in Silicon Valley (where I was living... this was before they acquired Nexgen), so I don't know what I would have done there, but anyway... As far as tips, email me. Or PM. Or enable your email address in your profile, or enable your PM's (so many choices). Or start a new thread. Hiring techniques for high tech companies can't be farther off topic than other stuff on here. FWIW, I love working for Intel and I have worked at several other high tech companies so I have something to compare against. It's a nice place to work and I have never seriously considered leaving to work elsewhere.
 

rimshaker

Senior member
Dec 7, 2001
722
0
0
Hmm... thanx! i'm pretty confident i can do the positions they want me for.... it's the interviewing and selling yourself part that i always dread i'm just naturally one of those quiet people... i've never been good at all when it comes to bragging about myself.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0


<<

<< I'm trying to get into Intel right now actually... phone interrogation soon... wish me luck for a on-site interview, i'll need it for sure... tips are welcome, lol. I hope AMD comes calling soon too. >>

AMD called for a 2nd interview the day after I accepted my offer for Intel. At that time they didn't do microprocessor design in Silicon Valley (where I was living... this was before they acquired Nexgen), so I don't know what I would have done there, but anyway... As far as tips, email me. Or PM. Or enable your email address in your profile, or enable your PM's (so many choices). Or start a new thread. Hiring techniques for high tech companies can't be farther off topic than other stuff on here. FWIW, I love working for Intel and I have worked at several other high tech companies so I have something to compare against. It's a nice place to work and I have never seriously considered leaving to work elsewhere.
>>



PM, the exact same thing happened to me. AMD called me with an offer the day after I accepted from another company. I specifically told them I was going to decide on Nov15. I called 3 times and reminded them. They called me on Nov 16 and gave me an offer. Something is really messed up in scheduling over there. Spend all that money flying me over from east coast, and then...
 

Sid03

Senior member
Nov 30, 2001
244
0
0
"thank you all for your answers! I found them informative, but at the same time, I remain a bit skeptical. "

what's up with that?!? you can't seem to believe the one guy on these forums (who still visits) who would know the answer to your question?

sounds to me like you have only one answer that you'll accept. if so, then what's the point of asking, if you already think you know the answer.

just out of curiousity, what's your theory?
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81


<< "thank you all for your answers! I found them informative, but at the same time, I remain a bit skeptical. "

what's up with that?!? you can't seem to believe the one guy on these forums (who still visits) who would know the answer to your question?

sounds to me like you have only one answer that you'll accept. if so, then what's the point of asking, if you already think you know the answer.

just out of curiousity, what's your theory?
>>


he's trying to drive away all the knowledgeable people who have actual experience in the stuff we talk about. :|
(^ "actual experience" referring to pm, "he" referring to the one who flamed)

edit: it sounded like i was saying pm was bad. reworded it
 

rimshaker

Senior member
Dec 7, 2001
722
0
0


<<

<< "thank you all for your answers! I found them informative, but at the same time, I remain a bit skeptical. "

what's up with that?!? you can't seem to believe the one guy on these forums (who still visits) who would know the answer to your question?

sounds to me like you have only one answer that you'll accept. if so, then what's the point of asking, if you already think you know the answer.

just out of curiousity, what's your theory?
>>


he's trying to drive away all the knowledgeable people who have actual experience in the stuff we talk about. :|
(^referring to pm)
>>




There's people here that actually work in the industry like for Intel and AMD. And many others around are actual EE peeps with solid backgrounds in this very field.... what more convincing arguments/theories you need?? pm pretty much summed it up.
 

element

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,635
0
0
he's trying to drive away all the knowledgeable people who have actual experience in the stuff we talk about.

Whaaaaaat?

He is one of "the knowledgeable people who have actual experience in the stuff we talk about"!!!

I for one agree with what PM said, have no hidden agenda (as if that were ever in question), and do not understand the reason for your skepticism.

FWIW I found this thread interesting and informative, and would like to thank PM for his post. I do hold a BSEE degree which perhaps puts me in a better position to understand where he is coming from.

I will try not to be as insulting to you as you have been to PM but I feel as though perhaps you are just incapable of understanding the explanation given to you jmitchell.
 

subflava

Senior member
Feb 8, 2001
280
0
0
Hmmm...let me give jmitchell a little help here. I think I understand what he's trying to say, although he's not really said much. I also think everyone is getting away from the original question. Reading jmitchell's original question, I believe he's more wondering about what the reasons are that we don't always see the fastest processors coming from Intel that they can make ASAP.

Based on what PM says, we can safely say that Intel does not have the capability to make Pentium 5's (hmm...is that then a Pentium^2?) and they aren't just "holding back" on purpose due marketing reasons. However, I don't think it's unreasonalbe to assume that Intel could have easily released ~2.5Ghz P4 Northwoods on the 7th when they actually announced at 2.2GHz (I say 2.5GHz from the early overclocking results around the web. I'm assuming that overclocking results are an indication of the overall progress of the core here...if anyone disagrees with this we can start another thread, but let's just assume this is true for the purposes of this discussion).

So why didn't they go with 2.5GHz? Wouldn't 2.5GHz put an even bigger gap between them and their competition, namely AMD? I think it's reasonable to say in this case that marketing factors heavily influenced choosing 2.2GHz. First of all, psychologically 2.2GHz is a smoother, more natural increase from 2.0GHz. It also allows their pricing scale to remain the same. It also prevents Intel from "wasting" the speeds between 2.0GHz and 2.5GHz and would allow them to squeeze out a few more "new" product cycles from the new .13u process.
(If anyone has ever looked at their roadmaps, Intel divides/targets certain chips to go into certain systems "levels" at specific price ranges. They can't raise the price of their highest end chip and still keep the price of the highest end system in the same range. Their product segments would get all screwed up and the OEM's would not be happy.)

Also, marketing is not *always* holding back the engineering/technology. We can look at the case with the late stages of the .18u PIII when Intel was pressured into releasing 900mhz, 933mhz and 1Ghz (and also the recalled 1.1Ghz) without the engineering to back it up. For the longest time you could not buy a 1GHz PIII and it was well known that Intel had very limited quantities of the high speed grades. In this case Intel was forced into this situation due to competitive pressures. In this case you could say that the engineering was holding back the marketing.

Another case of marketing influencing product releases: take the recently released 845D chipset for example. This chipset has had DDR capability all along and yet it was released to support only SDRAM. The functionality is already in the silicon and it doesn't cost them anymore to support DDR...so why would Intel deliberately not use DDR in the first place? Would DDR not make them more competitive and have faster systems? Again, they've chosen this route due to marketing reasons.

As everyone has mentioned, I appreciate the insights that PM is able to offer everyone into the engineering side of CPU manufacturing.

Now, if we had a marketing person for Intel that could give us their insights into that side of the issue, I'm sure we could hear some interesting things from him/her too.

 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81
I doubt thta intel has high enough yeilds on the 2.5GHz parts to release them. It would probably not be worth the time separating the few that do make 2.5GHz from the rest yet. If they did, they could keep current pricing the same, and put the 2.5GHz parts priced well above the rest, with no adverse affects on other sales.
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81


<< he's trying to drive away all the knowledgeable people who have actual experience in the stuff we talk about.

Whaaaaaat?

He is one of "the knowledgeable people who have actual experience in the stuff we talk about"!!!

I for one agree with what PM said, have no hidden agenda (as if that were ever in question), and do not understand the reason for your skepticism.

FWIW I found this thread interesting and informative, and would like to thank PM for his post. I do hold a BSEE degree which perhaps puts me in a better position to understand where he is coming from.

I will try not to be as insulting to you as you have been to PM but I feel as though perhaps you are just incapable of understanding the explanation given to you jmitchell.
>>


My apologies! it was very poor wording on my part - I edited the post. it should now be clear that I was not intending to insult pm at all.
 
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