Crap or get off the pot about CRT. Name the school district that teaches it.

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ProfAaron

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2021
16
5
36
Homer,

Here is a reader on CRT:


I know that your first reaction will be to dismiss this because it is a conservative source, but please do not—some of those articles in that collection are good. Like you, I do not care for a great many of the people who have chosen to oppose CRT. I have little doubt that many of their reasons are reprehensible. However, that doesn’t mean that CRT makes sense either. I am a lifelong liberal and Democrat. In fact, I have only voted for a Republican once and that person was also fairly liberal (this is NJ after all). So I have no love for either Republicans nor conservatism.

What I do believe, however, is that I have always believed in liberal values because to me they made the most sense. CRT does NOT make sense. As a professor of history I see this as a perversion of my discipline by people who are ideologues and, worse, often not historians! For example, one of CRT’s proponents is a microbiologist. She is entitled to her opinion, but referring to her as a source on this debate is laughable. Can you imagine if someone with a PhD in history was being asked about what approach we should take to COVID!? I would feel very uncomfortable if one of my colleagues was speaking out on an issue like that. So why are people like this microbiologist telling us about American history? That is part of what is going on here.

If you are interested I can give you more feedback. In re: to your OP, my stepfather is a counselor in a local school district here in NJ and parts of the CRT approach have been pushed but rejected. So while I cannot give you an example where CRT is being taught, I can assure you that it is being pushed. You need to keep that in mind in your search for an answer. Just because it is getting shot down doesn’t mean that it isn‘t being pushed.
 
Reactions: Pohemi

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
CRT does NOT make sense

Do you care to state why? The notions put forth by CRT are that there is an inherent racist undertone that is pervasive in society. It does not mean that all of society is racist, but that measures and actions have been taken to demean minorities (whether on purpose or inadvertently). An easy example of the former is redlining, which essentially allowed for legal segregation using bank loans. An example of the latter is the higher incarceration rate for specific crimes compared to whites.

For example, one of CRT’s proponents is a microbiologist.

While I may not normally go to someone with a science background for historical discussions, it doesn't mean that I should write them off immediately. This is arguably more of an ad hominem attack on the person's credibility simply because of their background. In other words, you aren't debating what this microbiologist says, you're debating their credentials. Does it mean they're necessarily right? No, but you aren't exactly giving me any reason to believe that they aren't. I mean... if that's how you look at things, you can just ignore my post, because I'm a software engineer!
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
I bet if there were some way to.track this, I think we'd find out that CRT doesn't make sense to much the same people who had trouble understanding common core math.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,282
28,141
136
Homer,

Here is a reader on CRT:


I know that your first reaction will be to dismiss this because it is a conservative source, but please do not—some of those articles in that collection are good. Like you, I do not care for a great many of the people who have chosen to oppose CRT. I have little doubt that many of their reasons are reprehensible. However, that doesn’t mean that CRT makes sense either. I am a lifelong liberal and Democrat. In fact, I have only voted for a Republican once and that person was also fairly liberal (this is NJ after all). So I have no love for either Republicans nor conservatism.

What I do believe, however, is that I have always believed in liberal values because to me they made the most sense. CRT does NOT make sense. As a professor of history I see this as a perversion of my discipline by people who are ideologues and, worse, often not historians! For example, one of CRT’s proponents is a microbiologist. She is entitled to her opinion, but referring to her as a source on this debate is laughable. Can you imagine if someone with a PhD in history was being asked about what approach we should take to COVID!? I would feel very uncomfortable if one of my colleagues was speaking out on an issue like that. So why are people like this microbiologist telling us about American history? That is part of what is going on here.

If you are interested I can give you more feedback. In re: to your OP, my stepfather is a counselor in a local school district here in NJ and parts of the CRT approach have been pushed but rejected. So while I cannot give you an example where CRT is being taught, I can assure you that it is being pushed. You need to keep that in mind in your search for an answer. Just because it is getting shot down doesn’t mean that it isn‘t being pushed.
I'll read it later. I'm in favor of this countries ENTIRE history being taught. As a history professor I wonder did you ever speak up when students were being taught Columbus discovered America? I remember those days.

As a history professor did you ever wonder why students in Tulsa Ok were never taught about their cities race massacre until approx 2003?

Just to add a little context to this discussion.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
Do you care to state why? The notions put forth by CRT are that there is an inherent racist undertone that is pervasive in society. It does not mean that all of society is racist, but that measures and actions have been taken to demean minorities (whether on purpose or inadvertently). An easy example of the former is redlining, which essentially allowed for legal segregation using bank loans. An example of the latter is the higher incarceration rate for specific crimes compared to whites.



While I may not normally go to someone with a science background for historical discussions, it doesn't mean that I should write them off immediately. This is arguably more of an ad hominem attack on the person's credibility simply because of their background. In other words, you aren't debating what this microbiologist says, you're debating their credentials. Does it mean they're necessarily right? No, but you aren't exactly giving me any reason to believe that they aren't. I mean... if that's how you look at things, you can just ignore my post, because I'm a software engineer!

I just want to say that this is an excellent post. You questioned his failure to define CRT (much less explain why it doesn't make sense), then provided an accurate definition of CRT, and then called him out for the selection bias is his appeal to authority argument.

Only thing I want to add is that the Prof's post appears to the kind of propaganda that right-wingers like to spread amongst themselves to make them feel moderate. They often tell the story of a repentant Democrat, fed up with some kind of nebulously-defined woke leftism, who's finally seen the light because of buzzwords and appeals to authority and 'common sense.' A proven effective means of manipulating those in search of confirmation bias.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,665
24,968
136
In re: to your OP, my stepfather is a counselor in a local school district here in NJ and parts of the CRT approach have been pushed but rejected. So while I cannot give you an example where CRT is being taught, I can assure you that it is being pushed. You need to keep that in mind in your search for an answer. Just because it is getting shot down doesn’t mean that it isn‘t being pushed.
Of course it's being pushed. How the fuck else would you correct problems caused by systemic racism if you didn't try to "push" policies that address those issues. That's a far cry from CRT itself being taught in schools. So is your stepfather talking about receiving professional education on the subject or polices being proposed with with the intent of addressing problems caused by systemic racism or actual curriculum that teaches CRT?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,324
15,123
136
Homer,

Here is a reader on CRT:


I know that your first reaction will be to dismiss this because it is a conservative source, but please do not—some of those articles in that collection are good. Like you, I do not care for a great many of the people who have chosen to oppose CRT. I have little doubt that many of their reasons are reprehensible. However, that doesn’t mean that CRT makes sense either. I am a lifelong liberal and Democrat. In fact, I have only voted for a Republican once and that person was also fairly liberal (this is NJ after all). So I have no love for either Republicans nor conservatism.

What I do believe, however, is that I have always believed in liberal values because to me they made the most sense. CRT does NOT make sense. As a professor of history I see this as a perversion of my discipline by people who are ideologues and, worse, often not historians! For example, one of CRT’s proponents is a microbiologist. She is entitled to her opinion, but referring to her as a source on this debate is laughable. Can you imagine if someone with a PhD in history was being asked about what approach we should take to COVID!? I would feel very uncomfortable if one of my colleagues was speaking out on an issue like that. So why are people like this microbiologist telling us about American history? That is part of what is going on here.

If you are interested I can give you more feedback. In re: to your OP, my stepfather is a counselor in a local school district here in NJ and parts of the CRT approach have been pushed but rejected. So while I cannot give you an example where CRT is being taught, I can assure you that it is being pushed. You need to keep that in mind in your search for an answer. Just because it is getting shot down doesn’t mean that it isn‘t being pushed.

Lol you don’t know what CRT is. Do you know how I know this? Because you linked to a propaganda website that also doesn’t know what CRT is.

But if you’d like us to believe you aren’t just another idiot brainwashed by right wing talking points, then by all means explain what CRT is in YOUR OWN words.
 
Reactions: Meghan54 and Pohemi

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,324
15,123
136
I just want to say that this is an excellent post. You questioned his failure to define CRT (much less explain why it doesn't make sense), then provided an accurate definition of CRT, and then called him out for the selection bias is his appeal to authority argument.

Only thing I want to add is that the Prof's post appears to the kind of propaganda that right-wingers like to spread amongst themselves to make them feel moderate. They often tell the story of a repentant Democrat, fed up with some kind of nebulously-defined woke leftism, who's finally seen the light because of buzzwords and appeals to authority and 'common sense.' A proven effective means of manipulating those in search of confirmation bias.

It really was and now that they’ve given the answer I’m sure the other poster will be asking any minute now to concede their ignorance.
 
Reactions: Meghan54

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,806
29,557
146
Friday Nov 19 2021 and still nobody can name the school district where CRT is taught

the people that complained about it already forgot that they complained about.

CRWhatsit?

in 2022, it will be CRT-teaching single mothers amassing at the border, to drive nightmares into the bed-wetting conservative children.
 
Reactions: Meghan54

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,806
29,557
146
Homer,

Here is a reader on CRT:


I know that your first reaction will be to dismiss this because it is a conservative source, but please do not—some of those articles in that collection are good. Like you, I do not care for a great many of the people who have chosen to oppose CRT. I have little doubt that many of their reasons are reprehensible. However, that doesn’t mean that CRT makes sense either. I am a lifelong liberal and Democrat. In fact, I have only voted for a Republican once and that person was also fairly liberal (this is NJ after all). So I have no love for either Republicans nor conservatism.

What I do believe, however, is that I have always believed in liberal values because to me they made the most sense. CRT does NOT make sense. As a professor of history I see this as a perversion of my discipline by people who are ideologues and, worse, often not historians! For example, one of CRT’s proponents is a microbiologist. She is entitled to her opinion, but referring to her as a source on this debate is laughable. Can you imagine if someone with a PhD in history was being asked about what approach we should take to COVID!? I would feel very uncomfortable if one of my colleagues was speaking out on an issue like that. So why are people like this microbiologist telling us about American history? That is part of what is going on here.

If you are interested I can give you more feedback. In re: to your OP, my stepfather is a counselor in a local school district here in NJ and parts of the CRT approach have been pushed but rejected. So while I cannot give you an example where CRT is being taught, I can assure you that it is being pushed. You need to keep that in mind in your search for an answer. Just because it is getting shot down doesn’t mean that it isn‘t being pushed.

lol, no way in fuck you are a professor of anything.
 

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,366
12,739
146

I know that your first reaction will be to dismiss this because it is a conservative source...
No. Not just a conservative source, but one of the most dishonest and laughably false sources that conservatives use.
Hi everybody! Thanks for welcoming me to the forum. I'm a liberal history professor who recommends the National Review! I'm so glad to be here!
Uh huh. Like a sore thumb wearing clownshoes.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,505
27,801
136
No. Not just a conservative source, but one of the most dishonest and laughably false sources that conservatives use.

Uh huh. Like a sore thumb wearing clownshoes.
Back when Bill Buckley ran the show, he would take the time to apply a lip gloss of pseudo-intellectualism to the pig. The current editors can't be assed to even pretend to respect their readers.
 
Reactions: Pohemi

ProfAaron

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2021
16
5
36
I'll read it later. I'm in favor of this countries ENTIRE history being taught. As a history professor I wonder did you ever speak up when students were being taught Columbus discovered America? I remember those days.

As a history professor did you ever wonder why students in Tulsa Ok were never taught about their cities race massacre until approx 2003?

Just to add a little context to this discussion.

Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. Without context all discussion is meaningless.

I commonly teach students that not only did Columbus not discover America, the Vikings may have had competition as well. Some people want to take this back to the Phoenicians, though I think that it excessive. It is plausible, but unlikely and AFAIK unprovable. As for me, there is a case to be made for the Polynesians making it to South America and the possibility, based on some admittedly tenuous evidence, that Japanese sailors also made the voyage. I also get a kick out of mentioning the plausibility that Zheng He made the voyage, but that needs WAY more proof. So yes, I absolutely do these things and more.

One of my issues with CRT is that it is based on some very poorly thought out ideas. For example, the teaching of the Enlightenment is being pushed aside. It is too western, too European, and too white. But in my classes I provide context. For example, we always read Denis Diderot’s* eloquent attack on the slave trade in the Encyclopedie in the 18th century. But CRT wants to do away with this or, at the least, minimize it. So the people who benefitted most from the end of slavery should not have to learn why? That would actively sabotage their understanding of history. After all, it isn’t like it was a foregone conclusion slavery would end. In fact, with chocolate slavery and things of that nature we are seeing slavery rise again. So it is an easy argument to make that people like Diderot helped to found a movement that we have benefitted from greatly and their actions had just as much to do with, say, Afro-American history as they do with European and American history.

The point you make about Tulsa is an important one, but CRT isn’t needed to address this. (to be fair, I don’t usually cover Tulsa either, I dwell more on the issues of the Deep South, segregation, etc., but that is another matter and your point stands) You need to address the curriculum on the local level and reform it. The fact that it hasn’t been done is a disservice, but it would need more context. For example, one CRT supporter writes about how unjust it is that we do not cover how Afro-Americans have been treated by the housing authorities after WWII. True, I don’t cover that either. Then again I also tend not to cover how veterans of all stripes have been shafted again and again by the US Govt. (if you’d like I can elaborate). But CRT advocates highlight the issue of minorities and that makes it sound like only their issues have been ignored When there are many subjects that get shorted. Sometimes this is simply due to time, other times there are more malicious reasons. In the Tulsa case I have no trouble believing that you’re right and that needs to be rectified. But in a general survey of American history I don’t have time to deal with every grievance. If I did so fairly it would be a class on oppression, not US History (some will argue that is synonymous).

Thanks for the response Homer and I apologize for being so verbose. It is a failing of mine.
-ProfAaron


As for the other responders, I will try to write more for some of you as there are some good points. I do notice a surfeit of ad hominem attacks. Attack my veracity if you’d like, attack the veracity of the National Review (I don’t really care since I have no dog in that fight), but at least make a cogent argument. But these replies are exactly what has pushed me away. For example, the National Review list some of you deride is just that, a list. It provides BOTH pro- and anti-CRT views, albeit with an anti-CRT lean, just as the NYT does the opposite. But a knee jerk rejection of a source—a source that is merely citing other sources you’re not familiar with without looking at it—is a reaction of pure unadulterated ignorance. Still, if you think you know so much then please make your argument. If your case is that good surely you will want to showcase it…. Right?

———————————

*—for some of those with your snide replies, here is what Diderot says about slavery. Now read this and tell me why this should NOT be taught to young African-Americans?:

”Slave trade is the purchase of Negroes made by Europeans on the coasts of Africa, who then employ these unfortunate men as slaves in their colonies. This purchase of Negroes to reduce them into slaveryis a negotiation that violates all religion, morals, natural law, and human rights.

According to an Englishman of today, who is full of enlightenment and humanity, the Negroes did not become slaves by any right of war; nor did they voluntarily sacrifice themselves to slavery. Therefore, their children are not born as slaves. Everyone knows that Negroes are being purchased from their princes, who believe they have the right to own their freedom. Everybody is also aware that merchants transport these Negroes as if they were merchandise, either to their colonies or to America, where they are put on display to be sold.

If a trade of this kind can be justified by a moral principle, then there is absolutely no crime, however atrocious, that cannot be legitimized. Kings, princes, and magistrates are not owners of their subjects; therefore they are not entitled to their subjects’ freedom, nor do they have the right to sell anyone into slavery.

Moreover, nobody has the right to buy these subjects or to call himself their master. Men and their freedom are not objects of commerce; they can be neither sold, nor purchased, nor bought at any price. Thus, a man must blame only himself if his slave escapes. He paid money for illicit merchandise, even though all laws of humanity and equity forbid him to do so.

Thus, each of those unfortunates who are merely considered slaves, has the right to be declared free since he never lost his freedom and never could. Furthermore, neither his prince, nor his father, nor anybody else in the world has the ability to own this freedom. Accordingly, the purchase of it is worthless: this Negro does not, nor could he ever, deprive himself of his natural right. He carries it everywhere, and can demand that he be allowed to enjoy it wherever he goes. It is thus an obvious inhumanity that, in the free country to which the Negro is transported, judges do not immediately decide to liberate him by declaring that he is free, as he is the judges’ fellow man and has a soul like theirs.

There are some authors who set themselves up as political legal experts and who boldly say that questions relating to a society’s condition must be decided by its national laws. They also argue that when a man is denoted a slave in America, he must remain a slave when he is transported to Europe. However, this results in deciding the rights of humanity by despicable civil laws, as Cicero said. Must not the magistrates of a nation, out of consideration for another nation, have any regard for their own species? Is it their deference to a law, which obliges them to nothing, that forces them to trample on the Law of Nature, which obligates all men in all times and places? Is there any law that is as necessary as the external laws of equity? Can one raise the question of whether a judge is more obligated to observe them, than to respect the arbitrary and inhumane customs of colonies?

One might say that these colonies would be quickly ruined if the slaveryof Negroes were abolished. If this is true, must we then presume that the Negro population must be horribly wronged for us to enrich ourselves, or provide for our luxury? It is true that robbers’ purses would be empty if stealing were put to an end: but do men have the right to enrich themselves in such cruel and criminal ways in the first place? What gives a bandit the right to steal from passer-bys? Who is permitted to become wealthy by robbing his fellow men of their happiness? Is it legitimate to strip the human species of its most sacred rights, only to satisfy one’s own greed, vanity, or particular passions? No...European colonies should be destroyed rather than create so many unfortunates!

However, I do not believe that the abolition of slavery would ruin the European colonies. Their commerce would temporarily suffer: I wish for this. Since the outcome is always affected by new situations, one could not immediately follow another system. However, many other advantages would result from this abolition.

It is this trade of Negroes, it is the usage of servitude, which prevented America from being populated as promptly that it could have. If one frees the Negroes, in a few generations this vast and fertile country will have an infinite number of inhabitants. The arts and talents will flourish there, and instead of being barely populated by savages and ferocious beasts, America will be populated by industrious men only. It is freedom, it is also industry that will be the real sources of abundance. As long as a population conserves this industry and this freedom, there will be nothing to fear. Industry, just out of necessity, is ingenious and inventive. It finds a thousand different ways to procure riches, and if one of these channels of opulence gets blocked, a hundred others immediately open.

Sensitive and generous souls would undoubtedly applaud these reasons in the name of humanity, but the avarice and greed that dominate the earth, will always refuse to listen to them.”
 

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,366
12,739
146
But a knee jerk rejection of a source—a source that is merely citing other sources you’re not familiar with without looking at it—is a reaction of pure unadulterated ignorance.
LOL...knee jerk? Not exactly. More like learned experience that nothing truly honest and informative comes from national review. That any self-respecting so-called liberal would be reading it and quoting it as evidence of something is laughable.

You can pretend to have a valid complaint about CRT if you choose. But when you do nothing but copy and paste, especially from questionable sources...it objectively invalidates your stated viewpoint.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,989
18,336
146
Wow, national review, the bastion of facts and integrity. I'm sold, must be Marxism, that's what all those people are fighting....😏
 
Reactions: Pohemi

ProfAaron

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2021
16
5
36
LOL...knee jerk? Not exactly. More like learned experience that nothing truly honest and informative comes from national review. That any self-respecting so-called liberal would be reading it and quoting it as evidence of something is laughable.

You can pretend to have a valid complaint about CRT if you choose. But when you do nothing but copy and paste, especially from questionable sources...it objectively invalidates your stated viewpoint.

Did you look at it? If not then by definition it is a knee jerk reaction. Do you have an answer to the points in the links? Apparently not. After all, you’re aware that it isn’t even an article, right? What I have linked to is simply a list of items leading to OTHER articles. The list is simply posted on NR. By your definition this would mean that those anti-COVID vaccine idiots are correct, right? After all, they don’t trust the government and anything the govt posts cannot be trusted, therefore they ignore it. You are doing the same thing and calling it enlightenment. I call it pig ignorance.

People like you are exactly what is fueling the right and destroying the things I hold dear. You actually think ignoring people, their POV, their arguments, etc. is somehow liberal but it isn’t in the least. The is being an ideologue. Sadly, liberals have ideologues as well, but being an ideologue does not make one a liberal

As for my opinion, I have provided my own experiences and information which you choose to overlook, twice. You have provided nothing. I have twenty years of student surveys proving you and your ilk wrong. I have lived in minority neighborhoods my entire life among the people we are talking about whereas I strongly suspect you are one of those suburban liberals who talk a good game but are afraid to set foot in a ”poor” or “dangerous” neighborhood, which is almost always code for black neighborhoods. I have met many like you and I think you’re closest racists who think that you need to tell these po’folk what they need and act as their white saviors. Please stop doing damage to these communities.
 
Reactions: Pohemi

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,806
29,557
146
Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. Without context all discussion is meaningless.

I commonly teach students that not only did Columbus not discover America, the Vikings may have had competition as well. Some people want to take this back to the Phoenicians, though I think that it excessive. It is plausible, but unlikely and AFAIK unprovable. As for me, there is a case to be made for the Polynesians making it to South America and the possibility, based on some admittedly tenuous evidence, that Japanese sailors also made the voyage. I also get a kick out of mentioning the plausibility that Zheng He made the voyage, but that needs WAY more proof. So yes, I absolutely do these things and more.

One of my issues with CRT is that it is based on some very poorly thought out ideas. For example, the teaching of the Enlightenment is being pushed aside. It is too western, too European, and too white. But in my classes I provide context. For example, we always read Denis Diderot’s* eloquent attack on the slave trade in the Encyclopedie in the 18th century. But CRT wants to do away with this or, at the least, minimize it. So the people who benefitted most from the end of slavery should not have to learn why? That would actively sabotage their understanding of history. After all, it isn’t like it was a foregone conclusion slavery would end. In fact, with chocolate slavery and things of that nature we are seeing slavery rise again. So it is an easy argument to make that people like Diderot helped to found a movement that we have benefitted from greatly and their actions had just as much to do with, say, Afro-American history as they do with European and American history.

The point you make about Tulsa is an important one, but CRT isn’t needed to address this. (to be fair, I don’t usually cover Tulsa either, I dwell more on the issues of the Deep South, segregation, etc., but that is another matter and your point stands) You need to address the curriculum on the local level and reform it. The fact that it hasn’t been done is a disservice, but it would need more context. For example, one CRT supporter writes about how unjust it is that we do not cover how Afro-Americans have been treated by the housing authorities after WWII. True, I don’t cover that either. Then again I also tend not to cover how veterans of all stripes have been shafted again and again by the US Govt. (if you’d like I can elaborate). But CRT advocates highlight the issue of minorities and that makes it sound like only their issues have been ignored When there are many subjects that get shorted. Sometimes this is simply due to time, other times there are more malicious reasons. In the Tulsa case I have no trouble believing that you’re right and that needs to be rectified. But in a general survey of American history I don’t have time to deal with every grievance. If I did so fairly it would be a class on oppression, not US History (some will argue that is synonymous).

Thanks for the response Homer and I apologize for being so verbose. It is a failing of mine.
-ProfAaron


As for the other responders, I will try to write more for some of you as there are some good points. I do notice a surfeit of ad hominem attacks. Attack my veracity if you’d like, attack the veracity of the National Review (I don’t really care since I have no dog in that fight), but at least make a cogent argument. But these replies are exactly what has pushed me away. For example, the National Review list some of you deride is just that, a list. It provides BOTH pro- and anti-CRT views, albeit with an anti-CRT lean, just as the NYT does the opposite. But a knee jerk rejection of a source—a source that is merely citing other sources you’re not familiar with without looking at it—is a reaction of pure unadulterated ignorance. Still, if you think you know so much then please make your argument. If your case is that good surely you will want to showcase it…. Right?

———————————

*—for some of those with your snide replies, here is what Diderot says about slavery. Now read this and tell me why this should NOT be taught to young African-Americans?:

”Slave trade is the purchase of Negroes made by Europeans on the coasts of Africa, who then employ these unfortunate men as slaves in their colonies. This purchase of Negroes to reduce them into slaveryis a negotiation that violates all religion, morals, natural law, and human rights.

According to an Englishman of today, who is full of enlightenment and humanity, the Negroes did not become slaves by any right of war; nor did they voluntarily sacrifice themselves to slavery. Therefore, their children are not born as slaves. Everyone knows that Negroes are being purchased from their princes, who believe they have the right to own their freedom. Everybody is also aware that merchants transport these Negroes as if they were merchandise, either to their colonies or to America, where they are put on display to be sold.

If a trade of this kind can be justified by a moral principle, then there is absolutely no crime, however atrocious, that cannot be legitimized. Kings, princes, and magistrates are not owners of their subjects; therefore they are not entitled to their subjects’ freedom, nor do they have the right to sell anyone into slavery.

Moreover, nobody has the right to buy these subjects or to call himself their master. Men and their freedom are not objects of commerce; they can be neither sold, nor purchased, nor bought at any price. Thus, a man must blame only himself if his slave escapes. He paid money for illicit merchandise, even though all laws of humanity and equity forbid him to do so.

Thus, each of those unfortunates who are merely considered slaves, has the right to be declared free since he never lost his freedom and never could. Furthermore, neither his prince, nor his father, nor anybody else in the world has the ability to own this freedom. Accordingly, the purchase of it is worthless: this Negro does not, nor could he ever, deprive himself of his natural right. He carries it everywhere, and can demand that he be allowed to enjoy it wherever he goes. It is thus an obvious inhumanity that, in the free country to which the Negro is transported, judges do not immediately decide to liberate him by declaring that he is free, as he is the judges’ fellow man and has a soul like theirs.

There are some authors who set themselves up as political legal experts and who boldly say that questions relating to a society’s condition must be decided by its national laws. They also argue that when a man is denoted a slave in America, he must remain a slave when he is transported to Europe. However, this results in deciding the rights of humanity by despicable civil laws, as Cicero said. Must not the magistrates of a nation, out of consideration for another nation, have any regard for their own species? Is it their deference to a law, which obliges them to nothing, that forces them to trample on the Law of Nature, which obligates all men in all times and places? Is there any law that is as necessary as the external laws of equity? Can one raise the question of whether a judge is more obligated to observe them, than to respect the arbitrary and inhumane customs of colonies?

One might say that these colonies would be quickly ruined if the slaveryof Negroes were abolished. If this is true, must we then presume that the Negro population must be horribly wronged for us to enrich ourselves, or provide for our luxury? It is true that robbers’ purses would be empty if stealing were put to an end: but do men have the right to enrich themselves in such cruel and criminal ways in the first place? What gives a bandit the right to steal from passer-bys? Who is permitted to become wealthy by robbing his fellow men of their happiness? Is it legitimate to strip the human species of its most sacred rights, only to satisfy one’s own greed, vanity, or particular passions? No...European colonies should be destroyed rather than create so many unfortunates!

However, I do not believe that the abolition of slavery would ruin the European colonies. Their commerce would temporarily suffer: I wish for this. Since the outcome is always affected by new situations, one could not immediately follow another system. However, many other advantages would result from this abolition.

It is this trade of Negroes, it is the usage of servitude, which prevented America from being populated as promptly that it could have. If one frees the Negroes, in a few generations this vast and fertile country will have an infinite number of inhabitants. The arts and talents will flourish there, and instead of being barely populated by savages and ferocious beasts, America will be populated by industrious men only. It is freedom, it is also industry that will be the real sources of abundance. As long as a population conserves this industry and this freedom, there will be nothing to fear. Industry, just out of necessity, is ingenious and inventive. It finds a thousand different ways to procure riches, and if one of these channels of opulence gets blocked, a hundred others immediately open.

Sensitive and generous souls would undoubtedly applaud these reasons in the name of humanity, but the avarice and greed that dominate the earth, will always refuse to listen to them.”

no one actually talks like this.

no one.

you're a fucking spambot.
 

ProfAaron

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2021
16
5
36
no one actually talks like this.

no one.

you're a fucking spambot.

Another intellectually scintillating response. My ignore button quivers in anticipation with your next keyboard spillage as you micturate on this discussion.

Of course it's being pushed. How the fuck else would you correct problems caused by systemic racism if you didn't try to "push" policies that address those issues. That's a far cry from CRT itself being taught in schools. So is your stepfather talking about receiving professional education on the subject or polices being proposed with with the intent of addressing problems caused by systemic racism or actual curriculum that teaches CRT?

Let me call my stepfather tomorrow and ask him again. I would like to give you an accurate answer. This was a few months ago—maybe a year?—but I believe it was a few different things. The thing that stuck out most in my mind was when he described a new grading theory being pushed that would assess students on differing scales depending on racial and social backgrounds. This upset both of us quite a bit. However, let me get him on the details and get back tomorrow (48hours at most).

You’re right that you need to push policies to address inequities. Please don’t think that I am against that. But doesn’t it matter which policies? To me CRT not only fails to address many of these, where it does address them it does so poorly. For example, Homer points

I just want to say that this is an excellent post. You questioned his failure to define CRT (much less explain why it doesn't make sense), then provided an accurate definition of CRT, and then called him out for the selection bias is his appeal to authority argument.

Only thing I want to add is that the Prof's post appears to the kind of propaganda that right-wingers like to spread amongst themselves to make them feel moderate. They often tell the story of a repentant Democrat, fed up with some kind of nebulously-defined woke leftism, who's finally seen the light because of buzzwords and appeals to authority and 'common sense.' A proven effective means of manipulating those in search of confirmation bias.

See my following responses please.

Do you care to state why? The notions put forth by CRT are that there is an inherent racist undertone that is pervasive in society. It does not mean that all of society is racist, but that measures and actions have been taken to demean minorities (whether on purpose or inadvertently). An easy example of the former is redlining, which essentially allowed for legal segregation using bank loans. An example of the latter is the higher incarceration rate for specific crimes compared to whites.



While I may not normally go to someone with a science background for historical discussions, it doesn't mean that I should write them off immediately. This is arguably more of an ad hominem attack on the person's credibility simply because of their background. In other words, you aren't debating what this microbiologist says, you're debating their credentials. Does it mean they're necessarily right? No, but you aren't exactly giving me any reason to believe that they aren't. I mean... if that's how you look at things, you can just ignore my post, because I'm a software engineer!

I get where you are coming from. Where I think the difference exists is in giving opinion and providing authority. Many people have commented over the years how foolish so many experts sound when they sound off outside their areas of expertise and I would argue that this is the same this. However, I wouldn’t ignore your post both because you make excellent points, no matter what your profession, and because you are entitled to your opinion even if I disagree with you (something I think others here might learn to do). But if I cited you as the reason I held certain beliefs or appealed to your authority then it sure better be in software engineering, right? Otherwise the burden is on me (or you) to show why you’d be a worthwhile source.

This goes to why I think CRT makes no sense. Firstly, it actively applies narrative over empiricism. Translating, how you feel about something trumps what I can prove. This is very twisted thinking and is a direct descendent of the debate in the above paragraph. Liberals like me used to take glee is Patrick Moynihan’s reprimand when he said that a person was entitled to their own opinions and NOT their own facts. Now people in my side of the aisle have flipped the argument with CRT and literally argue that you can have your own facts. Sorry, this isn’t true.

How does CRT do this? Well, I pointed out the way the Enlightenment has been handled in my own experience. I can provide other personal experiences but methinks the proletariat here wants something juicier, so let’s deal with the 1619 fiasco. Most people in my field consider it a tremendous misuse of history and those that do support it often do so because it is a sure fire way to get tenure (getting tenure is all about doing something different, not necessarily doing “good” history.). The basis of 1619 is that the USA is founded in slavery and institutional white supremacy. Many of the sources supporting this have been taken out of context and, worse, the entire counter argument has been ignored. You need just a single point to destroy the entire premise: slavery would have been put into the constitution had the northern states had their way after the American Revolutionary War, but they couldn’t pay their war debts. The south could pay their debts and literally bought acquiescence. How then can you argue that slavery was so utterly ensconced in American society when half of said society was already giving it up at the dawn of the nation and was prepared to try to force the other half?

None of this means slavery didn’t play a huge role. Nor does it mean that white supremacy hasn’t played a role. But what CRT argues is that those are the dominant themes in American history and, to support this, they use people outside of history and historians with an agenda. You see this in the defenses of CRT. Despite the repeated ad hominem attacks—people claiming I am a spambot, not a professor, and so on—there hasn’t been much REAL defense of CRT. You‘ve made a much better case than some of the most of the people who seem to be passionate defenders of the idea.

I think where you and I differ are in the application of this ideal. I suspect that what you want is what I want, and what I have been teaching for 20 years. I’ve covered redlining at times, other times I deal with different civil rights issues. However, the image of CRT you’re imagining is just one of many, which is why it is impossible to ask where CRT is taught. It is like asking where history is taught. If you define teaching a subject as teaching ALL of it then history is literally taught nowhere, not even Yale, Harvard, or Oxford. But if we are talking about large chunks of it or even a majority (maybe) then there are plenty of places. So which CRT would you want? If it is teaching like how I have described in this thread and proving context then CRT serves no purpose in most places; we already do this. If you mean taking to more extreme elements of CRT and placing them into the curriculum them I am against that emphatically.
 
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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,366
12,739
146
Did you look at it? If not then by definition it is a knee jerk reaction. Do you have an answer to the points in the links? Apparently not. After all, you’re aware that it isn’t even an article, right? What I have linked to is simply a list of items leading to OTHER articles. The list is simply posted on NR.
Any other sources that NR would link to are going to be as invalid as NR itself. They don't utilize actual verifiable facts, or link to other sites that do. Care to defend the indefensible some more? Feel free, but you're a fool.
By your definition this would mean that those anti-COVID vaccine idiots are correct, right? After all, they don’t trust the government and anything the govt posts cannot be trusted, therefore they ignore it. You are doing the same thing and calling it enlightenment. I call it pig ignorance.
Bahahahaha...okay, wait a sec. Sorry...mwahahahahaha. Wow, that's too fucking much. Yes, because the government is as untrustworthy as one of the most slanted and partisan "news" outlets I've seen? Bwahahahahahaha...that's quite the pile of deflection, there.
People like you are exactly what is fueling the right and destroying the things I hold dear. You actually think ignoring people, their POV, their arguments, etc. is somehow liberal but it isn’t in the least. The is being an ideologue. Sadly, liberals have ideologues as well, but being an ideologue does not make one a liberal
Bahahahaha. "People like you"...yes, yes...I'm the entire reason that rethuglic*nts are maintaining power through the minority. I'm the reason they are mostly shit-headed people with no integrity. Let me guess...I'm also the thing 'driving you away from liberalism'. Gimme a fucking break, tool.
I have twenty years of student surveys proving you and your ilk wrong. I have lived in minority neighborhoods my entire life among the people we are talking about whereas I strongly suspect you are one of those suburban liberals who talk a good game but are afraid to set foot in a ”poor” or “dangerous” neighborhood, which is almost always code for black neighborhoods. I have met many like you and I think you’re closest racists who think that you need to tell these po’folk what they need and act as their white saviors. Please stop doing damage to these communities.
Sure. You're a real expert. Says you, who has no history or authority here. But, you're making a fast place for yourself in the forum clowncar. Welcome to the stupid club.



This goes to why I think CRT makes no sense. Firstly, it actively applies narrative over empiricism. Translating, how you feel about something trumps what I can prove. This is very twisted thinking and is a direct descendent of the debate in the above paragraph. Liberals like me used to take glee is Patrick Moynihan’s reprimand when he said that a person was entitled to their own opinions and NOT their own facts. Now people in my side of the aisle have flipped the argument with CRT and literally argue that you can have your own facts. Sorry, this isn’t true.
Nobody here is buying the bolded and italicized remarks.
...But what CRT argues is that those are the dominant themes in American history and, to support this, they use people outside of history and historians with an agenda. You see this in the defenses of CRT. Despite the repeated ad hominem attacks—people claiming I am a spambot, not a professor, and so on—there hasn’t been much REAL defense of CRT.

I think where you and I differ are in the application of this ideal. I suspect that what you want is what I want, and what I have been teaching for 20 years. I’ve covered redlining at times, other times I deal with different civil rights issues. However, the image of CRT you’re imagining is just one of many, which is why it is impossible to ask where CRT is taught. It is like asking where history is taught. If you define teaching a subject as teaching ALL of it then history is literally taught nowhere, not even Yale, Harvard, or Oxford. But if we are talking about large chunks of it or even a majority (maybe) then there are plenty of places. So which CRT would you want? If it is teaching like how I have described in this thread and proving context then CRT serves no purpose in most places; we already do this. If you mean taking to more extreme elements of CRT and placing them into the curriculum them I am against that emphatically.
A few here have given heartfelt and genuine responses to your bullshit, but don't think we haven't seen "your ilk" here before. You try to sound intelligent, make no real verifiable statements, and end up sounding like a mealy-mouth, pretend-to-be-liberal-but-really-a-bothsides-conservative.

This is exactly why others (like me) don't bother engaging in real discussion with you. Because you started off on the wrong clownshoe and have done nothing but dig in your heel. It deserves nothing but ridicule in my book. Be more honest about your political leanings, and don't think people here can't see right through you. We can and do.
 
Last edited:
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ProfAaron

Junior Member
Nov 19, 2021
16
5
36
Someone doesn’t know the difference between the 1619 project and CRT. Please keep writing and showing us how you really don’t know what the fuck you are talking about.

Here is someone who agrees with you, is a PhD student, and also talks about how the two have become conflated (to borrow the author’s wording)….


“This rejection of CRT and the 1619 Project is a growing problem and is definitely something that I, a researcher of CRT and hopefully future professor, am concerned about.”


Wow, I had thought this might actually be a place to have a conversation but apparently many of you just throw tantrums when someone disagrees. What s great indictment of our society…..

Next.
 
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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,366
12,739
146
Wow, I had thought this might actually be a place to have a conversation but apparently many of you just throw tantrums when someone disagrees. What s great indictment of our society…..
People disagree here constantly, and good discussions do come of it. What you're doing is trying to make your viewpoint 'more valid' than others' using bullshit evidence. That's why you're a clown. And so obvious, too.

Nice job playing the victim though...we know how oppressed you are.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,324
15,123
136
So now that you know the difference between the two maybe you edit your post to remove all references to crt and replace it with the 1619 project. Of which, from a historical standpoint, absolutely does have issues.

Now if you don’t feel like editing your posts and you want to continue conflating the two subjects and essentially repeat Republican talking points, then don’t be surprised at the level of animosity you are receiving and will continue to receive.
 
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