Crash of Transasia ATR-72

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LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
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Twin engine planes can easily fly on one engine right? I'm guessing mmntech is right. The engine did not just flame out but had a failure that damaged some flight controls.

The failed engine needs to have it's prop feathered to eliminate the drag from the prop.

The prop is supposed to auto-feather on engine failure on this airplane.

It looks to me like the port prop is windmilling, meaning it is not feathered.

That would make it very hard to stay airborne and maintain control.

However, it's not entirely clear on the video to say for certain.
 

NoTine42

Golden Member
Sep 30, 2013
1,387
78
91
There wasn't enough power with the left engine out.

He was into a death stall.

Was it the human pilot or the autopilot?

After MH370, it was reported that in simulators, after the engines ran out of fuel, the plane loses speed, and thus altitude. Autopilot doesn't like to lose altitude, so it raises the flaps to increase altitude, which makes the plane slower ... Eventually a death stall.

Using common sense, you might encourage a loss of altitude to maintain speed and, at least, maintain some control towards a more gentle landing.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,217
5,076
146
The inoperative engine was auto-feathering, but it will continue to windmill slowly. It is not a high drag condition. The power section and compressor section of a turbine is not hard linked, and the windmilling propeller is not driving a high load like it does with a piston engine.
If it did not clip that building as it came into view ( don't think it did), then what you are seeing is a plane that has decelerated below the redline, or VMCA. This is the airspeed at which the pilot can no longer maintain directional control with one engine inoperative in a worst condition, with a propeller windmilling, gross weight and aft Center of Gravity (CG) condition, and operative engine at full power. Because this redline depends on all those conditions, the actual VMCA will move some due to loading and conditions.
The only recourse is to lower the nose, or reduce power on the operative engine to maintain control.
Redline is also near the stall speed. If you get slow enough, the aircraft will roll over because you don't have rudder authority to correct the yaw, and the wing with the inoperative engine is making less lift due to both the yawed condition and the lack of coanda effect, created by that big propeller blowing high velocity air over the wing.
This was a spin entry that did not have the altitude to develop.

There is no term "death stall". Some aircraft do not recover well from a stall, and get into a condition called a "deep stall". The aircraft is stable and will not recover from the stalled attitude, due to the elevator being blanked by the wing or not having enough control authority to fly out of the stalled condition. Those aircraft are equipped with stick shakers and stick pushers that are activated when the plane is approaching the critical angle of attack. If a pilot ignores the shaker or overcomes the pusher, which is a hard thing to do, the plane will get into that deep stalled condition and not be recoverable. That might be where the media has come up with this "death stall" bogus term.
 

who?

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2012
2,327
42
91
That "deep stall" situation can occur in planes with a T tail but many of those planes are built nose heavy with the engines pointing a bit upwards in the back so that it will have a natural tendency to rotate nose down so that it gains airspeed and the horizontal stabilizer gets out of the turbulent airflow from the stalled main wing.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,217
5,076
146
That "deep stall" situation can occur in planes with a T tail but many of those planes are built nose heavy with the engines pointing a bit upwards in the back so that it will have a natural tendency to rotate nose down so that it gains airspeed and the horizontal stabilizer gets out of the turbulent airflow from the stalled main wing.
It is also common on swept wing aircraft. Not many of those can be stalled safely.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,217
5,076
146
That data seems odd. 116 kts was the highest speed he attained? Can an ATR take off at 110 kts?
The limited info I found was V1 rotate @110, V2 initial climb @115.

It was in trouble from the start if that data is correct. In normal conditions it will be accelerating to 130, retract flaps and cruise climb at ~190 KTs.
 

Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
Because the flaps make the air going over the top of the wing travel an even longer distance the air going over the top of the wing has to speed up more which reduces its pressure even more compared to the air going under the wing causing the wing to get sucked up more.

As informed as your later post on deep stall is, I'd expect you to know better. It doesn't magically speed up anymore than it does from the compression-venturi effect the upper leading edge creates. It sticks to the upper surface (or is supposed to) of the flap due to the Coanda effect, depending on the flap type. There will be some loss in air velocity from surface drag as the air approaches the trailing edge of the complete airfoil + flap but it should still be moving around the same or faster than the lower surface air. The upper and lower surfaces don't just magically meet back up where they were split.

Lift is created in three ways: Bernoulli Effect (upper surface pressure), Newton's 3rd Law (trailing edge downwash), and the higher pressure on the lower surface.

I'd hate to be in the kind of situation this plane was put through, with that much yaw + roll effect when one engine goes out on climb with the higher α, especially when you have prop wash acting on the wing with some flaps still deployed. Trying to roll right puts even more drag on the left wing (which I assume was the one with the dead engine) as the aileron goes down and induced drag increases. Reminds me of the Sabre dance.
 
Last edited:

who?

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2012
2,327
42
91
This aircraft had had a faulty left engine which was replaced.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
13
81
www.markbetz.net
The limited info I found was V1 rotate @110, V2 initial climb @115.

It was in trouble from the start if that data is correct. In normal conditions it will be accelerating to 130, retract flaps and cruise climb at ~190 KTs.

And he made it to 1350 feet at 98 knots? That thing must literally have been on the edge of falling out of the sky. Was this simply due to the loss of power on the left engine? Could he not climb out on one?

Btw, I assume those altitudes are above-ground because they start at 0... or maybe the airport actually is at sea-level, I don't know.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
That 98kts is probably ground speed. We need the air speed to determine if the plane could climb out or was at or near stall.

Overall though, I would bet on a stall.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
13
81
www.markbetz.net
That 98kts is probably ground speed. We need the air speed to determine if the plane could climb out or was at or near stall.

Overall though, I would bet on a stall.

Ah yeah good point. We don't know what the wind was doing.
 

Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
Btw, I assume those altitudes are above-ground because they start at 0... or maybe the airport actually is at sea-level, I don't know.

I was wondering if the data was altitude above sea level or radar altimeter.

Basically we had crazy yaw and roll effects thanks to power loss on take off, which is compounded by higher AoA. Seems pretty simple.

We should be asking why the engine died.
 

who?

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2012
2,327
42
91
CNN has a story of a man who heard an odd noise and was allowed to reseat with his wife and child in the back of the plane. They survived.
 

skyking

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
22,217
5,076
146
Unless the plane was overloaded or out of CG limits, it should have decent performance on one engine if you do things properly.
By decent I mean 200~300 FPM.
 
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