Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
PJABBER
I have personally been close to death a couple of times and can assure you that I had no sudden interest in any god. (One of the times a doctor was honest enough to answer my question by telling me that if I lived through the night, I would likely recover. I spent the night trying to stay awake instead of sleeping through what might have been my last hours. Plenty of time for some mystic revelation, but it never occurred.) I doubt that I am unique in that respect.
Schaeffer is far better positioned to understand the mentality of the religious far right than you or I ever will be. Because of this, I think he has the potential to offer a far more accurate analysis of the religious right than most people. If I cannot find fault with his reasoning, I would tend to accept it.
The "Hitler" connection with Obama has always mystified me. I had tried all kinds of mental gymnastics to see how such a link might be possible, without success. This interview has offered a view that is new and interesting for me to contemplate.
I know death, and the anticipation of death, is experienced differently by everyone. Some are lucky enough to die in a comfortable bed, others covered with the detritus of their own shattered limbs and intestines.
I do not question your experience, nor that of anyone else who might venture a personal opinion on this. Being no stranger to the death of others has taught me to be sensitive to the wishes of those passing. The majority of people I have seen make some kind of a resolution or prayer if they are capable. Most want the comfort of a loved one, particularly their mother, rarely available, or the reassurance that something, God or whatever, will relieve them. I guess the less time you have to think about it the better.
True story: When I was a kid, I choked on an ice cream cone. Couldn't swallow, couldn't breathe. I asphyxiated long enough that my soul/consciousness/whatever separated from my body. I could see myself for a few moments and then I was heading up that long tunnel toward the light which so many other people with near death experiences have described. I had a few flashbacks but nothing significant (I believe someone else with more life experience might have more of a flashback experience.) It felt damn good. It felt better than anything I have felt before or since. Complete calm. Complete peace. The cone melted in my throat, I inhaled and pulled back into my body. I was angrier than I had ever felt before. I was so unhappy to be pulled back from what I was so joyful to be going toward.
Now, I do not want to extrapolate that into a religious experience. I have read quite a bit about near death experience and it all might be a function of progressive brain death and the sequential shut down of brain function. Maybe mystical vision and insight is the result of some kind of epilepsy or early dementia. The person experiencing something like that is getting a massive jolt of emotion, perceived lucidity and a lot more besides. I don't wonder that some may believe God is talking to them at those times.
As a result of my own childhood experience, however, I have absolutely no fear of death. I don't want to die uncomfortably but I don't fear the ending of life. After all, we are all due to check out sooner or later. When I talk to people about how there are many things that are worse than death, they think this is something strange, but I have found it is true.
We are contemplative creatures and the exercise of such consideration is one that gives many of us comfort, even respite from what may afflict us. I do understand and appreciate the depth of true belief in something beyond oneself that can occur. There are some exceptional true believers out there that live a quality of life that is way beyond ordinary existence. Bodhisattvas and saints do walk this earth, but they are rare indeed. But as there are saints so there are manifestations of evil.
Scott Peck wrote two books worth reading on this topic. The first is an homage to a good life, "The Road Less Traveled." The second is an examination of evil, "People of The Lie: The Hope For Healing Human Evil." The first will uplift most who read it, the second should be approached with caution by anyone in a sensitive state or experiencing psychological trauma themselves.
As I stated, I am no moral absolutist and my own belief system is pretty much that I don't have the confidence that man is much capable of understanding divinity, being as we ourselves are not divine.
I have no real understanding of the religious right, though I lived amongst Baptists and fundamentalists for a while. Most are good folks. Many have a calmness which comes from not being the centers of their own universe. It is something worth emulating.
Schaeffer comes across to me as someone sick within his soul. I know, it might just be a projection on my part as I never met the guy and I don't care to spend my time listening to him. He seems to have grown sick with cynicism and carries an air of bitterness that I don't want to expose myself to unduly.
He thinks people on the religious right see Obama as Hitler? I hadn't heard that. Most of the references to commonality come from people who see an encroachment of a developing totalitarian state, or statism.
Obama as another Hitler, the man, is an interesting concept. Both achieved unlikely political power as a result of domestic economic turmoil and in the aftermath of war. Both came from political perspectives that see government as a solution and not a problem. Both had troubled childhoods which caused them to have great inner conflict and ultimately an expression of action beyond what might be expected and against the perceived cause of that childhood trauma, but that is a characteristic of all charismatic leaders, ie Napoleon, Stalin, etc. Hitler was a creature of the Right, while Obama is of the Left, but I believe the extremes are mirror images. It is still early, isn't it, to reach a definitive conclusion?
I believe you would gain much better insight as to where Obama is coming from by reviewing the short program made by Glen Beck today. It apparently kind of wraps up a number of his earlier shows, which I have not seen, about the current Administration and puts it in recent historical focus. If you think Beck's points are valid, then you can watch the earlier segments for more detail.
The One Thing
Originally posted by: JKing106
It's not anti-religion. It's anti-scumbag assholes who use religion to mislead the gullible.
Some people need to believe in supernatural fantasy because their mind is too weak to deal with reality.
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: ericlp
I believe this guy hit's the nail right on the head.
I have not read his book, but I will soon. I can relate to this...
I think PJ and PJ Wanna Be's should take a listen to this...
Religion is this countries down fall. It's too big. These people had a lot of power when bush was sitting at the helm letting them do whatever they wanted to do. Now that the power has swung away they are basically FREAKING out. I dunno how you control a religious group that is still powerful and will start doing crazy things when they continue to lose power. It will be interesting to see how our own government will react to this problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E1SLJgATvM&f
Frank Schaeffer is and always has been, as far as I can tell, a fringy kind of guy. I've seen interviews by him before but then I switch channels inside of my 30 second window of establishing and maintaining interest. I think he hates himself more than Moonbeam. And that takes some doing.
Maybe he should marry his boss Arianna Huffington, have their kids godfathered by Arlen Specter and then start a cloning business backed by George Soros where the kids can alternate between being sane and not every other day. Snap! I forgot. They are already into that.
BTW, don't try me on a religious discussion unless you want to have your ass handed to you. Intellectually speaking, of course.
Fuck off!!! Tell your god I could give a shit next time you see him/her/ it ok?
I am agnostic, I guess the operative word floating around some of these threads is "deist." I trained heavily in philosophy and I LOVE the thought and the writings of Thomas Aquinas and David Hume equally. This is a forum on politics but if it were on religion I could really show you what fer.
Having said that, I've never met an atheist in a foxhole and if you want to know if you believe in God or not, get yourself into a place where you expect to meet Him real soon. I've seen lots of deathbed conversions. Funny how that goes, isn't it?
I don't believe in god. Thanks tho... Next time try to stay on topic about how crazy the right wingers have really become. I've probably sat in more fox holes then you have. And my Dog Tags state "Non Believer". I don't need any asshole hovering over my dead body wishing it to go to some made up land in the sky. Keep your own mind viruses to yourself please.
Atheists have the strongest belief system of all.
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: ericlp
I believe this guy hit's the nail right on the head.
I have not read his book, but I will soon. I can relate to this...
I think PJ and PJ Wanna Be's should take a listen to this...
Religion is this countries down fall. It's too big. These people had a lot of power when bush was sitting at the helm letting them do whatever they wanted to do. Now that the power has swung away they are basically FREAKING out. I dunno how you control a religious group that is still powerful and will start doing crazy things when they continue to lose power. It will be interesting to see how our own government will react to this problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E1SLJgATvM&f
Frank Schaeffer is and always has been, as far as I can tell, a fringy kind of guy. I've seen interviews by him before but then I switch channels inside of my 30 second window of establishing and maintaining interest. I think he hates himself more than Moonbeam. And that takes some doing.
Maybe he should marry his boss Arianna Huffington, have their kids godfathered by Arlen Specter and then start a cloning business backed by George Soros where the kids can alternate between being sane and not every other day. Snap! I forgot. They are already into that.
BTW, don't try me on a religious discussion unless you want to have your ass handed to you. Intellectually speaking, of course.
I am agnostic, I guess the operative word floating around some of these threads is "deist." I trained heavily in philosophy and I LOVE the thought and the writings of Thomas Aquinas and David Hume equally. This is a forum on politics but if it were on religion I could really show you what fer.
Having said that, I've never met an atheist in a foxhole and if you want to know if you believe in God or not, get yourself into a place where you expect to meet Him real soon. I've seen lots of deathbed conversions. Funny how that goes, isn't it?
Originally posted by: ericlp
I believe this guy hit's the nail right on the head.
I have not read his book, but I will soon. I can relate to this...
I think PJ and PJ Wanna Be's should take a listen to this...
Religion is this countries down fall. It's too big. These people had a lot of power when bush was sitting at the helm letting them do whatever they wanted to do. Now that the power has swung away they are basically FREAKING out. I dunno how you control a religious group that is still powerful and will start doing crazy things when they continue to lose power. It will be interesting to see how our own government will react to this problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E1SLJgATvM&f
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: JKing106
It's not anti-religion. It's anti-scumbag assholes who use religion to mislead the gullible.
There is a strong correlation between fundamentalists and nationalistic tendencies, probably because the same people like authority. It's also true that the neocons and their ilk played people like Dobson who thought Bush and Cheney were Christians and would back them on common concerns like school prayer and abortion. Well that didn't pan out. Bush got his war partially based on their support and Bush said something about abortion a couple times and did nothing.
Where this thread fails in analysis is assuming that religion is driving the opposition against Obama. If you were to look around you would see a great many tea partiers who aren't religious at all. I know several who think as much of religion as many here. They look down on anyone who considers it, much less practices it, yet think Obama is a POS. It's not that simple.
Now in reference to my anti-religion post, we've already had one which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Some people need to believe in supernatural fantasy because their mind is too weak to deal with reality.
If you look at the largest post count threads you will find the "R" word in most of them.
Personally, I'm glad that people are expressing their displeasure in a tangible way, but wish they would do it in an intelligent fashion. Ranting on and one about stupid stuff unrelated to policy undermines people with legitimate concerns. That happened with the Dems, and now the Reps. Say what you have to say, but if you go out of you way to look like a fool, then a fool is how you will be seen.
Originally posted by: JKing106
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: JKing106
It's not anti-religion. It's anti-scumbag assholes who use religion to mislead the gullible.
There is a strong correlation between fundamentalists and nationalistic tendencies, probably because the same people like authority. It's also true that the neocons and their ilk played people like Dobson who thought Bush and Cheney were Christians and would back them on common concerns like school prayer and abortion. Well that didn't pan out. Bush got his war partially based on their support and Bush said something about abortion a couple times and did nothing.
Where this thread fails in analysis is assuming that religion is driving the opposition against Obama. If you were to look around you would see a great many tea partiers who aren't religious at all. I know several who think as much of religion as many here. They look down on anyone who considers it, much less practices it, yet think Obama is a POS. It's not that simple.
Now in reference to my anti-religion post, we've already had one which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Some people need to believe in supernatural fantasy because their mind is too weak to deal with reality.
If you look at the largest post count threads you will find the "R" word in most of them.
Personally, I'm glad that people are expressing their displeasure in a tangible way, but wish they would do it in an intelligent fashion. Ranting on and one about stupid stuff unrelated to policy undermines people with legitimate concerns. That happened with the Dems, and now the Reps. Say what you have to say, but if you go out of you way to look like a fool, then a fool is how you will be seen.
Oh really, the Christian Right isn't opposing Obama?
http://www.drudge.com/news/124...bama-gets-brain-cancer
I even got it from Drudge so you'll believe it.
Here's another:
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/...ake-prays-obamas-death
Do you honestly not know these things, or are you just another apologist sheep like spidey07, Patranus, and BarrySotero?
Let us destroy all temples, all mosques, all churches, all gurudwaras, and all synagogues.
Let us destroy those who claim to have the unprovable truth.
Let us destroy government which allows all manner of superstition.
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Hayabusa Rider
"anti-religion"?
The discussion started over the point of using religion to agitate zealots. To possibly motivate them to violence and justify the behavior.
Originally posted by: JKing106
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: JKing106
It's not anti-religion. It's anti-scumbag assholes who use religion to mislead the gullible.
There is a strong correlation between fundamentalists and nationalistic tendencies, probably because the same people like authority. It's also true that the neocons and their ilk played people like Dobson who thought Bush and Cheney were Christians and would back them on common concerns like school prayer and abortion. Well that didn't pan out. Bush got his war partially based on their support and Bush said something about abortion a couple times and did nothing.
Where this thread fails in analysis is assuming that religion is driving the opposition against Obama. If you were to look around you would see a great many tea partiers who aren't religious at all. I know several who think as much of religion as many here. They look down on anyone who considers it, much less practices it, yet think Obama is a POS. It's not that simple.
Now in reference to my anti-religion post, we've already had one which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Some people need to believe in supernatural fantasy because their mind is too weak to deal with reality.
If you look at the largest post count threads you will find the "R" word in most of them.
Personally, I'm glad that people are expressing their displeasure in a tangible way, but wish they would do it in an intelligent fashion. Ranting on and one about stupid stuff unrelated to policy undermines people with legitimate concerns. That happened with the Dems, and now the Reps. Say what you have to say, but if you go out of you way to look like a fool, then a fool is how you will be seen.
Oh really, the Christian Right isn't opposing Obama?
http://www.drudge.com/news/124...bama-gets-brain-cancer
I even got it from Drudge so you'll believe it.
Here's another:
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/...ake-prays-obamas-death
Do you honestly not know these things, or are you just another apologist sheep like spidey07, Patranus, and BarrySotero?
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Hayabusa Rider
"anti-religion"?
The discussion started over the point of using religion to agitate zealots. To possibly motivate them to violence and justify the behavior.
So if we conclude that is actually what is happening, these prayers for Obama's death by religious leaders are to be seen as it's OK to sick him commands to the extreme religiously insane who are our equivalent of suicide bombers, how do you address that challenge?
Indeed, how should the government react to this problem, if it is in fact a problem, or should it react at all. I see a few questions. Is the problem real? Is it a government problem? How should it be dealt with if it is or is not? Can and should it be dealt with?
It seems to me that day by day America is looking more like Pakistan Iraq and Afghanistan. We have our own Taliban party in the making, a fanatical group of religiously led psychopaths who are so disturbed by the liberality of normal people's thinking that they can't help but seek total control. And these fanatics are having their psychosis stoked by cynical people who want to lead them.
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: JKing106
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: JKing106
It's not anti-religion. It's anti-scumbag assholes who use religion to mislead the gullible.
There is a strong correlation between fundamentalists and nationalistic tendencies, probably because the same people like authority. It's also true that the neocons and their ilk played people like Dobson who thought Bush and Cheney were Christians and would back them on common concerns like school prayer and abortion. Well that didn't pan out. Bush got his war partially based on their support and Bush said something about abortion a couple times and did nothing.
Where this thread fails in analysis is assuming that religion is driving the opposition against Obama. If you were to look around you would see a great many tea partiers who aren't religious at all. I know several who think as much of religion as many here. They look down on anyone who considers it, much less practices it, yet think Obama is a POS. It's not that simple.
Now in reference to my anti-religion post, we've already had one which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Some people need to believe in supernatural fantasy because their mind is too weak to deal with reality.
If you look at the largest post count threads you will find the "R" word in most of them.
Personally, I'm glad that people are expressing their displeasure in a tangible way, but wish they would do it in an intelligent fashion. Ranting on and one about stupid stuff unrelated to policy undermines people with legitimate concerns. That happened with the Dems, and now the Reps. Say what you have to say, but if you go out of you way to look like a fool, then a fool is how you will be seen.
Oh really, the Christian Right isn't opposing Obama?
http://www.drudge.com/news/124...bama-gets-brain-cancer
I even got it from Drudge so you'll believe it.
Here's another:
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/...ake-prays-obamas-death
Do you honestly not know these things, or are you just another apologist sheep like spidey07, Patranus, and BarrySotero?
I can provide a link where violent atheism is called for in those words.
Let us destroy all temples, all mosques, all churches, all gurudwaras, and all synagogues.
Let us destroy those who claim to have the unprovable truth.
Let us destroy government which allows all manner of superstition.
Were you not aware of this or are you just another apologist for <insert callout of your choice>?
Originally posted by: JKing106
So this is your retort? Schoolyard "nyah-nyah, yours does it too!" Absolutely pathetic. No wonder you people are so easily controlled.
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: JKing106
So this is your retort? Schoolyard "nyah-nyah, yours does it too!" Absolutely pathetic. No wonder you people are so easily controlled.
I gave you more credit for intelligence that was warranted. So be it. I'll break it down into little pieces.
There are very many people on the right who oppose Obama. Of those millions identify themselves as Christians. Of those you pull out a couple of nutjobs who talk trash. They are idiots. Now if mainstream Christianity felt as they do, then Obama would already be dead, because they number in tens of millions.
Now what I did was provide an example of an idiot just like those you linked to who no doubt appeals to some. Do I think he represents the mainstream who are not religious? No, because I'm not stupid. Do I think the dipshits you link to represent mainstream who are? No, because I'm not stupid.
You on the other hand have failed to recognize the obvious, in that if 100,000,000 citizens or so felt this way then there would be no Obama. If you cut that number back to oh, the population of CA, then he still would be dead.
What you did is take a few loonies who deserve to be ridiculed and generalize by a factor of millions. I did the same thing to illustrate the absurdity of your "argument".
As I said earlier today, if you carry on like a fool, that's how people will view you. Congrats for proving the point. You wouldn't pass muster in an 8th grade debate.
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
My point John is really more about poor reasoning here than anything else. One can discuss the relative merits of religion vs atheism, however the tactic used by the poster I chastize was that he picked a position and used the dumbest possible way to associate an evil position with them.
I will give an example you are familiar with
The people you fought beat and torture their women. Those people are Muslims. Therefore Muslims beat their wives. I think you can appreciate the fallicy in that.
Likewise the majority of people who are christian oppose Obama's policies. That one may or may not agree with the reasoning is not the point, nor was it of the man in the video. The point is that some are using religion as an excuse to behave badly, but people who have religious views aren't lining by the millions on a Jihad. Those who are should be called on it and with that I have no problem. Its the ovegeneralization which bugs me and I'd feel that way if any other group were selected out for that reason. If people who have religious beliefs were a monolithic bloc who all thought as these SOBs then I'd be all over them too. Since DC hasn't been torched you have to wonder about the premise what's his name was trying to sell.
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I know all kinds of people John, and that includes a lot of people who identify themselves as Christians and who don't like Obama. None I know are running around plotting to blow things up. Are there some? Probably a handful, but again you are going to be hard pressed to find a wholesale conspiracy.
As far as religion goes, yeah there are a lot of Christians who aren't. I'd put Cheney and Bush in that category since they had such a blatant disregard for life.
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I know all kinds of people John, and that includes a lot of people who identify themselves as Christians and who don't like Obama. None I know are running around plotting to blow things up. Are there some? Probably a handful, but again you are going to be hard pressed to find a wholesale conspiracy.
As far as religion goes, yeah there are a lot of Christians who aren't. I'd put Cheney and Bush in that category since they had such a blatant disregard for life.
Well, i know Muslims who are on Jihad who would rather burn themselves alive than to hurt another human being.
Jihad doesn't mean "blow people up", it's a common misconception among those who don't know sheit about what they are talking about though. Obviously, when it comes to this subject you don't. Now you do.
Christians are fine with oppression, through law preferably but most don't mind violence as long as they don't have to get their own hands dirty. I'd even go so far as to say that the majority are fine with oppression in some way as long as it's according to their variety of oppression.
Bush, Cheney, each and every one who ever cheered for war, the lot of them.
Now, sheit like UHC and taking care of peoples most basic needs should be obvious for a Christian, but obviously atheists care more for those in need than "Christians" do... Which would make athists more christ-like. Strange, isn't it?
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I know all kinds of people John, and that includes a lot of people who identify themselves as Christians and who don't like Obama. None I know are running around plotting to blow things up. Are there some? Probably a handful, but again you are going to be hard pressed to find a wholesale conspiracy.
As far as religion goes, yeah there are a lot of Christians who aren't. I'd put Cheney and Bush in that category since they had such a blatant disregard for life.
Well, i know Muslims who are on Jihad who would rather burn themselves alive than to hurt another human being.
Jihad doesn't mean "blow people up", it's a common misconception among those who don't know sheit about what they are talking about though. Obviously, when it comes to this subject you don't. Now you do.
Christians are fine with oppression, through law preferably but most don't mind violence as long as they don't have to get their own hands dirty. I'd even go so far as to say that the majority are fine with oppression in some way as long as it's according to their variety of oppression.
Bush, Cheney, each and every one who ever cheered for war, the lot of them.
Now, sheit like UHC and taking care of peoples most basic needs should be obvious for a Christian, but obviously atheists care more for those in need than "Christians" do... Which would make athists more christ-like. Strange, isn't it?
I forget that others know the proper meanings too
I was using it in the more common context here in America.
As far as things being strange? There are many inconsistencies in this world which annoy me to no end. Many who claim to be Christian are far more violent than Christ would ever have endorsed. There is something I call GodandAmerica, which is a bizarre meld of an imagined religion akin to Manifest Destiny and nationalism. The mixing of the two makes for people who imagine themselves superior because they are Americans, and of course God backs America to the exclusion of everyone else. You can bomb people because they are not what we think they should be and because we're the US dammit, God says "yee hah"
Now that's whacked.
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
You can't lump atheists together as you can do with theists, we have no religion, no faith in anything and each and every one of us are individuals, we have no common goal, no descriptor except "lacks faith in a deity".
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Holy shit another thousand post anti religion thread coming up!