Crossfire limited to 16X12 resolution!

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: amdnVuser
Crossfire does 1600x1200@60 or 1920x1200@52

I'm not shooting the messenger here, but good god 52 Hz is awful when 60 Hz is already nausea-inducing on CRT monitors.

Fine for TFT monitors? If you like your mouse jerky, yeah.

 

[malG]

Originally posted by: JBT
Rage3d Article about why this might not be such a problem.
Heres a link rage3d links to direct link

On the contrary, the problem is now confirmed by Josh (Penstarsys.com):

Originally Posted by Josh/Penstarsys.com
Things are getting more and more interesting as time goes on...

I have received some 3rd party confirmation that testers with CrossFire rigs can't in fact get above 1600x1200 @ 60 Hz with CRTs.

Something else to consider is that the Compositing chip doesn't appear to have built in RAMDACs or a TMDS transmitter, so has to use external ones. From what we are starting to see, it might just be the lack of high quality, built in RAMDACs or TMDSs that is limiting the solution to 1600x1200 60 Hz. If this is the case, ATI is indeed in big trouble as there are certain things you just can't work around.

Source: http://www.penstarsys.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=8;t=14;r=1

This doesn't look good :thumbsdown:

 

[brokenpc]

Originally posted by: amdnVuser
Inquirer Article: Crossfire does 1600x1200@60 or 1920x1200@52 . This is getting a little more interesting. It still sucks for high res CRT owners, though. (Nothing new, just putting in my 2 cents).

Yeah, that was the article Wreckage and I were discussing. Ok, I'll go into some details on what I have a problem with before I go to bed.

First of all, there is no evidence in the actual report that would suggest that there is an actual limitation. The screenshot showing 1920x1200 at 52Hz doesn't show the other options for refresh rates.

My major concern is not with this article but the one it follows up.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=26198

That article suggests a number of issues that show they are letting their imaginations run wild. Here's a paragraph by paragraph breakdown:

1.) We heard something about a SiI 1161 so we're going to look up what that chip does.
2.) To sound like we 're really smart, we'll tell you that 165MHz means that this chip can only handle 1600x1200 because we did some "really complex math". In actuality, we're quoting the facts on the product decription page.
3.) We did some really insightful google searches and found some useless info we're going to share about that chip.
4.) We'll dumb it down further and tell you some false info about how this chip is supposed to be used between GPUs (it's really used by LCD manufacturer to convert the DVI signal for use with a RAMDAC in the monitor).
5.) I'm now going to reflect on this so that I can show I do think once in a while. Through this reflection, I'll realized that the only reason to use a SiI 1161 in this solution is to keep costs down (although the product is marketed as a high end solution and the cost difference won't be more than a couple dollars a board). Then I'll start quoting some facts about Nvidia and conclude that ATI is going to move to a similar SLI system over the crossfire in the future. Afterall, Nvidia told us a crossfire system won't work and we believe them.
6.) Now we'll begin speculating about how ATI will market their solution now that I proved their system is crap.
7.) Some ATI partner think we are wrong. But who cares, we know better than ATI's partners! After all, we did the math (yeah right).


To conclude, it's more exciting to tell half-truths than to actually know what's going on.

 

[Rock Hydra]

Originally posted by: Insomniak
If true, ATi REALLY screwed it up.

 

[Bateluer]

I didn't read the entire thread, no need. But I would like to respond to Rollo's early comments regarding 60Hz refresh rates. A 60hz refresh rate on an LCD is standard. A 60hz refresh rate on an LCD produces no flickering and no eyestrain. That is all.

 

[ronnn]

I think it is time to remember Kris's edited out statement about the ATi lineup. He suggested much higher resolutions than we are talking about here (he sure did remove it quickly though). So maybe this limitation is not 1600 x 1200?

 

[rbV5]

Lets also not forget this whole "issue" is based on someones interpretation of DVI specs used in another type of implementation entirely, and of screenshots of the long existing output limitations of any single link DVI transmitter connected digitally to a digital flat panel.

(Disregarding the Crossfire feature) Catalyst 5.8 screenshots look EXACTLY THE SAME for display configuration with that same LCD, and they would look exactly the same if Crossfire were not enabled on that one as well, and it would be the same if the card were supported in the latest (or any) Forceware drivers as well (so what makes you think its not simply the "already know limitation of single link DVI" rather than any kind of Crossfire limitation?).... and we already know Catalyst drivers support to 2048x1536@85Hz analog.

Show me a Catalyst screenshot of a 21"CRT that is limited to 1600x1200@60Hz using Crossfire.

 

[rbV5]

Perhaps someone with Nvidia SLI and a 240T using DVI (there should be a few around here) could post a screenshot of forceware drivers with the card(s) driving the same 240Tpanel >1920x1200@52Hz or >1600x1200@60Hz?

 

[BenSkywalker]

Technically LCD's don't have refresh rates because they don't refresh! That's CRT lingo where it mattered. LCD's don't flicker so refresh rates mater less. LCD's are measured in response time. A 20ms response time equivalent to 50hz. So to answer your question, go look up all the LCD's with 20ms response times (hint, there's an assload of them). Anything with 16ms response times runs up to 60hz. So running above 50hz refresh rate on a 20ms LCD is pointless... you're wasting bandwidth.

I'll try explaining this simply.

The response time is the time it takes to change from one color to another
The LCD needs to inform the pixels what color they need to change to
LCDs are not psychic
They find out what color they need to change to during the refresh

60Hz refresh rate roughly works out to 16ms but then you have to add the latency due to the low refresh rate. Your 16ms display just turned into a 32ms display real fast. Move to 52Hz and you are turning that 'screaming fast' 8ms display into a lethargic 27ms.

Based on the information from Penstar this appears to be legit. We can only assume that this will be fixed on R520 parts or their is no question that ATi is completely surrendering the top tier market to nVidia without contest- I can't see that happening as they have devoted so much time and R&D dollars into this that the investor backlash would be formidable(between the mobo and master cards).

 

[rbV5]

Nvidia tells the truth about crossfire!Link

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: rbV5
Nvidia tells the truth about crossfire!Link

Good find rbV5- pretty much sums it up.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
I didn't read the entire thread, no need. But I would like to respond to Rollo's early comments regarding 60Hz refresh rates. A 60hz refresh rate on an LCD is standard. A 60hz refresh rate on an LCD produces no flickering and no eyestrain. That is all.

True, but a 60Hz refresh rate on a CRT is like looking at a strobelight. And what about the 2405 owners? Is 52Hz a "standard" too?

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: rbV5
Nvidia tells the truth about crossfire!Link

Good find rbV5- pretty much sums it up.

Of course it does........................

 

[Emultra]

60hz is completely unsusable. I might as well play on a 1960's 12 inch trailer TV.

 

[DRavisher]

Well the kewl thing is nvidia isn't spreading BS, or exaggerating at all (except for the MB stuff. I don't know if that holds true). The CrossFire / SLI part of that presentation is pure fact as far as I can tell. X8xx series CrossFire sucks compared to G70 Crossfire (or, feature wise, compared to 6xxx crossfire too).

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Emultra
60hz is completely unsusable. I might as well play on a 1960's 12 inch trailer TV.

Apparently that what ATI thinks you use for a monitor.

ATI- the choice of compromise.

 

[theMan]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Emultra
60hz is completely unsusable. I might as well play on a 1960's 12 inch trailer TV.

Apparently that what ATI thinks you use for a monitor.

ATi - a soon too be dead company.

Fixed

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: rbV5
Nvidia tells the truth about crossfire!Link

Ouch lol.

 

[Kyanzes]

What is really disappointing is the 60Hz. As if ATI wouldn't even count on users those are having CRTs.

 

[KeepItRed]

It's probably going to be fixed in Catalyst sooner or later.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: KeepItRed
It's probably going to be fixed in Catalyst sooner or later.

It's a hardware issue, so unless they find some way around it, they can't fix it.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: KeepItRed
It's probably going to be fixed in Catalyst sooner or later.

You can't fix hardware limitations with a driver KeepItRed.

ATI has basically told gamers using CRTs "It's cheaper for us to use inferior parts that will be OK with some LCDs than actually make a product with present day performance you've all been taking for granted for years. If you want to use our cards, you'll buy a LCD and live with it's limitations."

 

[rbV5]

You can't fix hardware limitations with a driver KeepItRed.

Exactly, look at NV40 and PurevideoBS......there's still some people holding out for a fix though:roll:...we'll find out about Crossfire soon

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: rbV5

You can't fix hardware limitations with a driver KeepItRed.

Exactly, look at NV40 and PurevideoBS......there's still some people holding out for a fix though:roll:...we'll find out about Crossfire soon

Who are those people rbV5? nVidia stated last year there would be no WMV acceleration on nV40 gpus. The only people "holding out" apparently don't believe the company that makes the product?

 

[Turtle 1]

Ya I was thinking the same Thing
Nvidia IQ problems -its hardware baby a driver won't fix it
Nvidia's problem with SM2 didn't fix -Microsoft made an exception for them
Nvidia problem with SM3 didn't fix - microsoft again made an exception for them
There will be NO exceptions for SM4 if they don't get it right the first .second.third. times , you will wait tell they get it right. ATI'S most work now R500 unified shaders works just fine in XBOX2