Crossfire limited to 16X12 resolution!

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: KeepItRed
It's probably going to be fixed in Catalyst sooner or later.

You can't fix hardware limitations with a driver KeepItRed.

ATI has basically told gamers using CRTs "It's cheaper for us to use inferior parts that will be OK with some LCDs than actually make a product with present day performance you've all been taking for granted for years. If you want to use our cards, you'll buy a LCD and live with it's limitations."

It's not even that - I use my 2005 FPW LCD @ 75 hz with a res. of 1680x1050 so X-fire wouldn't cut it for me either. This display so far runs just as good as my G520 21" CRT did for games except I get better clarity out of it. About the only advantage missing is the ability to down scale the resolution without blurring.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: KeepItRed
It's probably going to be fixed in Catalyst sooner or later.

You can't fix hardware limitations with a driver KeepItRed.

ATI has basically told gamers using CRTs "It's cheaper for us to use inferior parts that will be OK with some LCDs than actually make a product with present day performance you've all been taking for granted for years. If you want to use our cards, you'll buy a LCD and live with it's limitations."

It's not even that - I use my 2005 FPW LCD @ 75 hz with a res. of 1680x1050 so X-fire wouldn't cut it for me either. This display so far runs just as good as my G520 21" CRT did for games except I get better clarity out of it. About the only advantage missing is the ability to down scale the resolution without blurring.

Can you go above 1680X1050 without blurring? (asking, I really thought you pretty much have to stick with native res on LCDs for optimal performance/IQ)

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: 5150Joker

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: KeepItRed
It's probably going to be fixed in Catalyst sooner or later.

You can't fix hardware limitations with a driver KeepItRed.

ATI has basically told gamers using CRTs "It's cheaper for us to use inferior parts that will be OK with some LCDs than actually make a product with present day performance you've all been taking for granted for years. If you want to use our cards, you'll buy a LCD and live with it's limitations."

It's not even that - I use my 2005 FPW LCD @ 75 hz with a res. of 1680x1050 so X-fire wouldn't cut it for me either. This display so far runs just as good as my G520 21" CRT did for games except I get better clarity out of it. About the only advantage missing is the ability to down scale the resolution without blurring.

Can you go above 1680X1050 without blurring? (asking, I really thought you pretty much have to stick with native res on LCDs for optimal performance/IQ)

Nope the native resolution is the highest it can go. Thing is 1600x1200 is the max I ever wanted to go on my CRT since it was already hard enough to read the text at that resolution. Anyway, if I want a higher resolution I'd have to get a 2405 that has 1920x1200 native but that's a bit high for my tastes.

 

[Turtle 1]

Joker on that 24" LCD in native the text will be easy to read/ Yes your right about the CRT high res. It really isn't very good . But native high res on a LCD really is very nice

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Rollo
Can you go above 1680X1050 without blurring? (asking, I really thought you pretty much have to stick with native res on LCDs for optimal performance/IQ)

The LCD is just a matrix of 1680x1050 pixels and it's stuck that way no matter what. Lower resolutions have to interpolate to fit that pixel matrix. It's SSAA (Super Sampling AA). The resolution is rendered high then reduced 2x to fit, so it gives fairly good results (technically speaking).

Like I said though, 60 Hz isn't optimal for ANYTHING really. It's NOT fine for LCDs. Flickering/slow updates on CRTs and slow updates on LCDs still. Maybe it won't give you nausea/eyestrain on an LCD, but just because it doesn't give you that doesn't mean it's good, just not as bad.

On a CRT, I definitely wouldn't go below 85 Hz vertical.

 

[brokenpc]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: rbV5
Nvidia tells the truth about crossfire!Link

Good find rbV5- pretty much sums it up.

Actually, all this proves is where this rumor started. Hmm, I wonder where your industry insider works...

Nvidia has created it, rage3d fell for it, the inquirer ran with it, you posted it. Thanks for playing the legitimization game!

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: rbV5

You can't fix hardware limitations with a driver KeepItRed.

Exactly, look at NV40 and PurevideoBS......there's still some people holding out for a fix though:roll:...we'll find out about Crossfire soon

Who are those people rbV5? nVidia stated last year there would be no WMV acceleration on nV40 gpus. The only people "holding out" apparently don't believe the company that makes the product?

Maybe group that believes that their NV41 has a "fixed" programmable VP despite the fact that nvidia has yet to deliver to them any additional codec support despite the fact that there are several popular formats in use that could benefit. Nvidia's Purevideo PDF (Link still claims:

It accomplishes
this by adding programmability that addresses new video formats (such as WMV9),
and future formats such as MPEG-4, plus H.264 for high definition.

and gems like:

The GeForce 6 Series of GPUs is capable of hardware video encode acceleration.
Video encode is a difficult and time-consuming process. The power of the GeForce
6 Series of GPUs greatly reduces the time involved, and ensures the quality of the
compressed video is top-notch..

are you saying H.264 hardware decoding, mpeg4 hardware decoding or "any" other "future"..LOL... formats and "any" hardware video encoding support is coming "soon" to NV41? You know, the one with the "fixed" PVP. My guess is that every new format supported will require another "revision" of the PVP.

 

[SynthDude2001]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: rbV5

You can't fix hardware limitations with a driver KeepItRed.

Exactly, look at NV40 and PurevideoBS......there's still some people holding out for a fix though:roll:...we'll find out about Crossfire soon

Who are those people rbV5? nVidia stated last year there would be no WMV acceleration on nV40 gpus. The only people "holding out" apparently don't believe the company that makes the product?

Maybe group that believes that their NV41 has a "fixed" programmable VP despite the fact that nvidia has yet to deliver to them any additional codec support despite the fact that there are several popular formats in use that could benefit. Nvidia's Purevideo PDF (Link still claims:

It accomplishes
this by adding programmability that addresses new video formats (such as WMV9),
and future formats such as MPEG-4, plus H.264 for high definition.

and gems like:

The GeForce 6 Series of GPUs is capable of hardware video encode acceleration.
Video encode is a difficult and time-consuming process. The power of the GeForce
6 Series of GPUs greatly reduces the time involved, and ensures the quality of the
compressed video is top-notch..

are you saying H.264 hardware decoding, mpeg4 hardware decoding or "any" other "future"..LOL... formats and "any" hardware video encoding support is coming "soon" to NV41? You know, the one with the "fixed" PVP. My guess is that every new format supported will require another "revision" of the PVP.

I've gotta agree...PVP/Purevideo was a load of crap, and I say this as a 6800GT owner.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: 5150Joker
Nope the native resolution is the highest it can go. Thing is 1600x1200 is the max I ever wanted to go on my CRT since it was already hard enough to read the text at that resolution. Anyway, if I want a higher resolution I'd have to get a 2405 that has 1920x1200 native but that's a bit high for my tastes.

Thanks, that's what I thought. Gaming at 19X14 is pretty nice though, lots of pixels!

 

[nRollo]

rbV5-
I'm not going to debate Purevideo in this thread. This thread is about the failures of Crossfire?

We can discuss Purevideo, the 5800, and brilinear in other threads if you like.

This thread is about Crossfire being limited to 16X12 @60Hz, like the topic says.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: brokenpc

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: rbV5
Nvidia tells the truth about crossfire!Link

Good find rbV5- pretty much sums it up.

Actually, all this proves is where this rumor started. Hmm, I wonder where your industry insider works...

Nvidia has created it, rage3d fell for it, the inquirer ran with it, you posted it. Thanks for playing the legitimization game!

It's nice you joined the board to call nVidia liars.

However, other sources independent of nVidia have verified this limitation, so if you're going to say it's not true, you should provide links to your source?

Otherwise we may not be likely to believe you?

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: Rollo
rbV5-
I'm not going to debate Purevideo in this thread. This thread is about the failures of Crossfire?

We can discuss Purevideo, the 5800, and brilinear in other threads if you like.

This thread is about Crossfire being limited to 16X12 @60Hz, like the topic says.

You asked, I answered. The difference is that PurevideoBS is an actual ongoing issue, same nonesense marketing "slides" from Nvidia that distort the truth (this time about their competiton rather than their own product, <provided they are from Nvidia of course>), while Crossfire limitations are purely speculation.

You, of course, fail to stay on-topic yourself and hammer ATI with all sorts of half truths and pure FUD throughout the entire thread that have nothing to do with Crossfire, yet pull the "hey, lets stay on topic here!" when the tables are turned

 

[brokenpc]

Originally posted by: Rollo

It's nice you joined the board to call nVidia liars.

However, other sources independent of nVidia have verified this limitation, so if you're going to say it's not true, you should provide links to your source?

Otherwise we may not be likely to believe you?

I didn't join this board to call Nvidia liars, I came here to call you a pawn who pays a hell of a lot to be a pawn. At the time, I didn't even know that someone in Nvidia's marketting team made the slides that started it all. But, immediately, I could tell that this claim has BS slathered all over it. I joined this board (which I've read since before the fall of 3dfx) to be the first to point my finger your way when crossfire is released and reviewed.

I don't have to provide links to back up my premise. The fact is that I have an underlying belief that should trump any "I heard from a guy who knows a guy that found out that, yes in fact, crossfire testers can't get more than 16x12." If that's the strongest evidence you got, please don't ask me for links.

That belief is I don't think ATI hires crappy designers. I've worked with a lot of good designers and have realized that their goals are to make their company a success. They will work overtme for free just to meet deadlines, they will spent days arguing over the direction of the project, they will access every resource available to them to make sure the design is top-notch. Those designers should be on par with ATI's groups.

ATI's designers are not going to risk the marketing of this product over the difference of one chip. If they needed a SiI 1171, they would have used it. These guys and girls know what their doing.

If you think I'm wrong, then just say it. Tell me you think that ATI hires morons to design products.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: brokenpc

Originally posted by: Rollo

It's nice you joined the board to call nVidia liars.

However, other sources independent of nVidia have verified this limitation, so if you're going to say it's not true, you should provide links to your source?

Otherwise we may not be likely to believe you?

I didn't join this board to call Nvidia liars, I came here to call you a pawn who pays a hell of a lot to be a pawn. At the time, I didn't even know that someone in Nvidia's marketting team made the slides that started it all.

It's nice you joined the board to call me names. One thing this forum needs is more juvenile name calling!
:roll:

But, immediately, I could tell that this claim has BS slathered all over it. I joined this board (which I've read since before the fall of 3dfx) to be the first to point my finger your way when crossfire is released and reviewed.

Who knows? They may change it now that the "cat is out of the bag" and the whole web is laughing at it.
Strange how the AT benches don't show Crossfire at any higher resolutions than 16X12 though isn't it?
Strange how the guy at Penstarsys got word from people testing it that they couldn't go above 16 X12 60Hz isn't it? (when he clearly wanted to believe it could)
Strange how a product "launched" down in Australia weeks ago has no reviews on the web isn't it?

I don't have to provide links to back up my premise.

You'll have to do better than typing your premise on a forum for me (and anybody smart) to believe you? "Dude- the Earth is flat, and I don't have to provide links to support my premise!" Do you believe me? :roll:

The fact is that I have an underlying belief that should trump any "I heard from a guy who knows a guy that found out that, yes in fact, crossfire testers can't get more than 16x12."

Oh well, if you have an underlying belief, that's different! LOL
"Dude, I have an underlying belief the Earth is flat!" Do you believe me? :roll:

If that's the strongest evidence you got, please don't ask me for links.

Well, let's see:
1. nVidia slides have pictures of the part with the chip.
2. Rage3d, the ATI promo site posts this info as a downfall of Crossfire
3. Penstarsys tries to debunk the issue, calls on some beta testers and instead ends up verifying it
4. My friend who works in the graphics card business (at nVidia) told me this weeks ago, and has no reason to lie to me

On the other hand, we have you, an unknown guy joining the board to tell us these claims are "False! False I say!"

Errrr, yeah. You go, Info-Source! :roll:

That belief is I don't think ATI hires crappy designers.

Really? You mean the designers that made the second or third best products all those years before they bought the ArtX R300 design are the good ones? I see. The guys that made the MAXX- that couldn't run in Win2K and had all sorts of missing/flashing texture problems- those are the good designers? I see.

I've worked with a lot of good designers and have realized that their goals are to make their company a success. They will work overtme for free just to meet deadlines, they will spent days arguing over the direction of the project, they will access every resource available to them to make sure the design is top-notch.

Oh, so you know some designers "that work real hard" and ATI designers must be just like them? Honestly, I'm laughing as I write this, and I imagine some will laugh pretty hard reading it. Your "logic" makes it seem like you arrived on this planet yesterday, I almost feel like I'm conversing with an alien.

Those designers should be on par with ATI's groups.

Oh? And why is that? Because all designers are just good guys by nature, and they would NEVER limit the Crossfire rig to 60Hz? :roll: (they really should have a "rollo" emoticon for this, I use it so much)

ATI's designers are not going to risk the marketing of this product over the difference of one chip. If they needed a SiI 1171, they would have used it. These guys and girls know what their doing.

Post a link to the evidence they did, and I'll apologize for my error. Until then, all we have is the word of nVidia and two review sites, and yours. Since I've never heard of you, I'll believe ATIs fan site over you.

If you think I'm wrong, then just say it. Tell me you think that ATI hires morons to design products.

I think you're wrong. I think you're very young, or new to the planet. I think ATI makes good decisions sometimes, and bad decisions sometimes. I think they made a bad decision this time, but hope I'm wrong for the sake of anyone who buys this very late to market, and IMO obsolete, tech.

P.S. If you are from another planet, can you travel through time as well as space? I'd like to go back and switch my double major from Psych/Business to Comp Sci/Business.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: brokenpc

Originally posted by: Rollo

It's nice you joined the board to call nVidia liars.

However, other sources independent of nVidia have verified this limitation, so if you're going to say it's not true, you should provide links to your source?

Otherwise we may not be likely to believe you?

I didn't join this board to call Nvidia liars, I came here to call you a pawn who pays a hell of a lot to be a pawn. At the time, I didn't even know that someone in Nvidia's marketting team made the slides that started it all. But, immediately, I could tell that this claim has BS slathered all over it. I joined this board (which I've read since before the fall of 3dfx) to be the first to point my finger your way when crossfire is released and reviewed.

I don't have to provide links to back up my premise. The fact is that I have an underlying belief that should trump any "I heard from a guy who knows a guy that found out that, yes in fact, crossfire testers can't get more than 16x12." If that's the strongest evidence you got, please don't ask me for links.

That belief is I don't think ATI hires crappy designers. I've worked with a lot of good designers and have realized that their goals are to make their company a success. They will work overtme for free just to meet deadlines, they will spent days arguing over the direction of the project, they will access every resource available to them to make sure the design is top-notch. Those designers should be on par with ATI's groups.

ATI's designers are not going to risk the marketing of this product over the difference of one chip. If they needed a SiI 1171, they would have used it. These guys and girls know what their doing.

If you think I'm wrong, then just say it. Tell me you think that ATI hires morons to design products.

As a matter of fact, you do. See highlighted text above. Why don't you take a little trip over to Rage3d. A lad named Josh dug into this issue and claimed that above 1600x1200 can in fact be attained using crossfire. He then "amended" his findings when 3rd party sources confirmed that they in fact CANNOT get a crossfire system over 1600x1200 @60hz. Most members over there absolutely LOVED Josh for a few minutes, until he updated his comments with this news. This is from Rage3D, the ATI capitol of the internet. Go check it out if you havent already.

And to reiterate, yes you do have to back up your claims with links to credible sources.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
As a matter of fact, you do. See highlighted text above. And to reiterate, yes you do have to back up your claims with links to credible sources.

He doesn't have to back up his claims Keys!

After all,

I have known some fine boys and girls who are designers! Salt of the Earth types that would loan you their last nickel! These courageous young men and women would NEVER sell you anything less than the BEST DARN VIDEO cards money can buy!

LOL

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: brokenpc
The slave is likely creating half the image (resolution reduced or actually just half the screen) and is then transmitting it to the master. This is then buffered and combined with the picture created by the crossfire edition card. The final output will be an image using both the output recieved from the slave and the master but from the master.

Well, that would be a pretty big buffer to add to every card. If the limit is 1920x1200, as dictated by the 1161 chip, we're looking at 1920x1200x4B~=9MB. 16x12 would fit in 8MB, so that's an 8MB chip hanging off the Compositing Engine (CE, a "Xilinx FPGA," according to Hexus.net). 9MB is more of a pain, as it would either require a 16MB chip, much of which would be unused, or two chips, which will cost even more valuable board space.

I've been told that the CE doesn't carry a significant amount of cache.* We'll see.

Originally posted by: Rollo
And what about the 2405 owners? Is 52Hz a "standard" too?

Can single-link TDMS transmitters on nVidia cards go above 52Hz? This will probably be a limitation for all single-link TDMS cards. DVI spec says no more than 60Hz at 19x12 with reduced blanking, so I'm not sure if it's worth nit-picking over 8Hz.

Still, 52Hz is an odd rate for the Samsung 240T, whose specs list 56Hz as a minimum vertical refresh rate. I'm not sure if DVI has a vertical refresh, tho. Maybe that range just applies to the 240T's analog connection.

-----------
* Edit: See discussion on p. 3 following my post. Also see this pic and description of the Master Card, which doesn't seem to show any RAM associated with the CE--unless it's on the other side of the card, which is a possibility. It also says the 240MHz RAMDAC is only good for 19x12@75Hz, which is fairly middling--and is nonstandard for a 4:3 CRT, which would require ~1900x1400.

 

[brokenpc]

Rollo, I loved your response. Why? Because I can see I got under your skin. Good.

I'm not going to respond to the tome you posted but I will say this. I didn't come here to convert a zealot. I just want to point one out.

So I'll return to my point: do you know how career ending a limitation like this would be to the crossfire design team. A product marketed to enthusiasts is below parity in an essential feature. That's moronic and simply will not be the case.

Sure, I might just be stamping my foot saying "I know better." But all logic agrees with me.

Rollo, as a double major with Psych/Business (I'm not sure what that means), buzz marketing should not be a foreign term to you. Marketers understand this better than anyone. What better way to sell a new yo-yo than to hand it to the popular kid in schools and have him use it. What better way to get kids not to buy the hoolahoop than to have him say (because he heard from a guy who knew a guy) that the hoop would only come in hot pink. They other kids will not want the hoop even if it comes in all different colours. Why? Because the popular kid had a good reason not to like it (though they can't remember it).

Rollo is the popular kid. He's incessantly around this forum as the guy with knowledge. He buys the newest products and reports how much he likes them. He builds credibility. And then he drops bombs.

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: brokenpc
Rollo is the popular kid. He's incessantly around this forum as the guy with knowledge. He buys the newest products and reports how much he likes them. He builds credibility. And then he drops bombs.

lmao. i'll wager that has to be the first time rollo was ever called the "popular kid".

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: brokenpc
Rollo, I loved your response. Why? Because I can see I got under your skin. Good.

I'm not going to respond to the tome you posted but I will say this. I didn't come here to convert a zealot. I just want to point one out.

So I'll return to my point: do you know how career ending a limitation like this would be to the crossfire design team. A product marketed to enthusiasts is below parity in an essential feature. That's moronic and simply will not be the case.

Sure, I might just be stamping my foot saying "I know better." But all logic agrees with me.

Rollo, as a double major with Psych/Business (I'm not sure what that means), buzz marketing should not be a foreign term to you. Marketers understand this better than anyone. What better way to sell a new yo-yo than to hand it to the popular kid in schools and have him use it. What better way to get kids not to buy the hoolahoop than to have him say (because he heard from a guy who knew a guy) that the hoop would only come in hot pink. They other kids will not want the hoop even if it comes in all different colours. Why? Because the popular kid had a good reason not to like it (though they can't remember it).

Rollo is the popular kid. He's incessantly around this forum as the guy with knowledge. He buys the newest products and reports how much he likes them. He builds credibility. And then he drops bombs.

Like I said BrokenPC, I hope you're right and ATI addresses this issue in the products that make it to market. (for the buyers sake)

Interesting playground analogy. Any "toy" makers reading this should feel free to send me "toys" to play with! I've always liked gifts!

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: rise4310

Originally posted by: brokenpc
Rollo is the popular kid. He's incessantly around this forum as the guy with knowledge. He buys the newest products and reports how much he likes them. He builds credibility. And then he drops bombs.

lmao. i'll wager that has to be the first time rollo was ever called the "popular kid".

I have to admit I like reading this guy's stuff, he's pretty funny!

 

[Deception]

Originally posted by: brokenpc
Rollo, I loved your response. Why? Because I can see I got under your skin. Good.

I'm not going to respond to the tome you posted but I will say this. I didn't come here to convert a zealot. I just want to point one out.

So I'll return to my point: do you know how career ending a limitation like this would be to the crossfire design team. A product marketed to enthusiasts is below parity in an essential feature. That's moronic and simply will not be the case.

Sure, I might just be stamping my foot saying "I know better." But all logic agrees with me.

Rollo, as a double major with Psych/Business (I'm not sure what that means), buzz marketing should not be a foreign term to you. Marketers understand this better than anyone. What better way to sell a new yo-yo than to hand it to the popular kid in schools and have him use it. What better way to get kids not to buy the hoolahoop than to have him say (because he heard from a guy who knew a guy) that the hoop would only come in hot pink. They other kids will not want the hoop even if it comes in all different colours. Why? Because the popular kid had a good reason not to like it (though they can't remember it).

Rollo is the popular kid. He's incessantly around this forum as the guy with knowledge. He buys the newest products and reports how much he likes them. He builds credibility. And then he drops bombs.

I have a question for you:

What's the point in blatantly attacking someone?

You're logic here is quited flawed; you here are directly attacking Rollo himself...even admitting that this is the reason you joined the forums...is this supposed to help the AT forums in some sort of way.

On the contrary, do you not realize that you're hurting the situation and not helping?

I have been a long time fan of AT forums for quite some time, but I have never seen people so angry about computer hardware :-/

Deception

 

[brokenpc]

Originally posted by: Deception

I have a question for you:

What's the point in blatantly attacking someone?

You're logic here is quited flawed; you here are directly attacking Rollo himself...even admitting that this is the reason you joined the forums...is this supposed to help the AT forums in some sort of way.

On the contrary, do you not realize that you're hurting the situation and not helping?

I have been a long time fan of AT forums for quite some time, but I have never seen people so angry about computer hardware :-/

Deception

Apparently, you were not reading when 3dfx was around.

People, especially enthusiast, like to affiliate themselves to video cards. It gets emotional because people hate to be told that they are not smart shoppers. Why do you think companies like to place a card in their product box that states "Congratulations, you smart shopper, you are now the proud owner of XYZ!"

For the last few years, Rollo likes to bash ATI. I can only figure its for kicks (unless he really is on the payroll). And you know what, that didn't bother me. Every side has ignorant zealots. I just took offense to this discussion because it's based on the assumption engineers do not have foresight. Rollo started the fire here and fanned the flames; i'm just blowing the smoke back in his face.

BTW, I don't have any stake in ATI. The last four cards I've owned were Nvidia's but only because they had more reasonable value to me. That value is a direct result of competition. I like competition, just not dirty tricks.

Rollo is trying to adjust people's perception of the value of crossfire before it even comes out. If he was on Nvidia's payroll, I would have attributed this to getting some buyers off the fence and selling them the nforce SLI's because the crossfire is not worth waiting for. But have you noticed how he left himself an out by saying that he hopes I'm right that ATI will be able to fix the crossfire in the next 8 days.

 

[Banzai042]

Wow, i'm suprised that nobody has posted this yet

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: rbV5
Maybe group that believes that their NV41 has a "fixed" programmable VP despite the fact that nvidia has yet to deliver to them any additional codec support despite the fact that there are several popular formats in use that could benefit.

You mean other than WMV acceleration and MPEG-2 acceleration? Because the NV41 does have those.

Well I don't think it will require a new revision. It can speed it up at least a little because the PVP includes motion search and iDCT functionality which is universally used. The PVP itself is capable, but NVIDIA hasn't shown any application for its other functionality yet (other than MPEG-2), and probably never will.