Crucial MX300

[Hellhammer]

Wow I should have read that diagram more before my post. What process are they doing that on? That is just terrible endurance.

Based on the die size and memory array efficiency the cell size of Intel/Micron 3D NAND is about the same as Samsung's V-NAND.

Process nodes are actually very tricky because all the numbers you see are nearly always just marketing figures i.e. the smallest feature size in the die. By that definition, Samsung V-NAND is actually ~21nm, but the cell half-pitch is 3Xnm. Context is the king because a process node without any details doesn't tell what is measured. Hence cell size describes cost efficiency and endurance characteristics much better.

Intel-Micron's floating gate design is also inferior to charge trap because it requires higher operating voltages, which cause more stress on the cell structure and hence lower endurance.

 

[JimmiG]

Reliability has very little to do with the type of NAND in question, TLC vs MLC, except the fringe cases of 840 (Evo) & more to do with controller & firmware. 3D NAND, I suspect, will forever change the common perception about TLC, even though MLC & SLC will always remain superior to it.

The controller can only do so much if the NAND cells can't hold a specific charge reliably. In the end it comes down to physics and physically trapping electrons. Doubling the number of voltage states while at the same time shrinking the whole device is just asking for trouble. I don't like the idea of relying on ever more advanced error correction to try and decipher the ever more garbled data that the dying NAND is trying to store.

3D NAND at least "resets the clock" on the manufacturing process. With a larger process, there are more electrons so reading the charge becomes easier, a few electrons escaping doesn't affect the charge that much, and there's less leakage to begin with.

 

[zlejedi]

Is there any info on pricing ?

Since it seems to be a step backwards will it at least be cheaper than mx200?

 

[cbn]

Four-plane design is mandatory for such a large die with current SSD capacities, especially given that the cell-level performance of Micron 3D NAND doesn't look too good.

http://m.chinaflashmarket.com/news/industry/152396

wow, does ldpc have such an impact on endurance with 2d flash aswell ?

Silicon Motion also claimed a 3x increase for SM2256 using that tech (they call it NANDXtand which also includes a RAID data recovery) for 2D TLC :

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...66.html?_ga=1.258816202.1514432400.1461980969

 

[cbn]

Deleted.

 

[arandomguy]

There goes the April time frame. The official wait continues.

 

[Hellhammer]

There goes the April time frame. The official wait continues.

I heard the release was postponed due to reviewers being dissatisfied with the performance.

 

[hojnikb]

Shocking from crucial (not really).
I mean, when did they release a drive, that can compete with the big boys in terms of performance ?

 

[PliotronX]

I heard the release was postponed due to reviewers being dissatisfied with the performance.

They learned precisely zero from the BX200 debacle

 

[PliotronX]

Shocking from crucial (not really).
I mean, when did they release a drive, that can compete with the big boys in terms of performance ?

Who would you exactly define as "the big boys?"

 

[hojnikb]

Who would you exactly define as "the big boys?"

samsung and sandisk for one. They still cant touch the likes of extreme pro and 850pro. I bet mx300 can't either.

 

[PliotronX]

samsung and sandisk for one. They still cant touch the likes of extreme pro and 850pro. I bet mx300 can't either.

Nor were the MX series ever in the same price range. The MX300 is assuredly going to be a letdown. The BX100 and MX100/200 models were a happy medium between cost and performance but the race to the bottom has drawn Crucial into nothanksville.

 

[Elixer]

The MX100 sold very well, and they are going backwards with the MX300. Maybe they will do the MX300 Pro version with MLC as well.

 

[Elixer]

Friend who does bulk buys on stuff said their CDW rep told him the MX300 had firmware issues.
Anyone else hear anything more about this?

That would explain the long delay...

 

[pitz]

This thread is making me glad I put in an order for some MX200's. The Samsung 840 / 840 Evo were fairly hyped drives straight out of the gate too, yet look at how they turned out in the real world.

There's something to be said about being conservative with one's SSD choices. Especially if one doesn't need the performance.

 

[zlejedi]

Friend who does bulk buys on stuff said their CDW rep told him the MX300 had firmware issues.
Anyone else hear anything more about this?

That would explain the long delay...

One of our polish portals already had the drive tested but they had to cancel the article since release was postponed.

 

[Brado78]

TLC is the new NAND Folks!!, Make piece with it....you know why..............................................................because it is cheaper to make , who would have thought....:\, just as asynchronous nand is ....

 

[hojnikb]

Its not cheaper to make, but it's cheaper per GB.

 

[Elixer]

Well, reviews are now out for the MX300...
http://www.anandtech.com/print/10274/the-crucial-mx300-750gb-ssd-review-microns-3d-nand-arrives
and other sites as well.

Overall, too expensive, too slow, and just not worth it IMO.
It needs to be around $25 cheaper for it to make sense.

Oh, and BTW, it was firmware issues that held up the launch.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Overall, too expensive, too slow, and just not worth it IMO.
It needs to be around $25 cheaper for it to make sense.

That's true of almost every SSD at release time. The prices drop quickly enough - it's not like GPUs.

 

[Elixer]

They did hit the mark correctly with the MX100 & BX100, so, it seems odd for Crucial to be doing this on such a lackluster product.

I have a suspicion that this product isn't ready for prime time yet, either because of reliability issues, or bad yields.

 

[VirtualLarry]

That's true of almost every SSD at release time. The prices drop quickly enough - it's not like GPUs.

Price of 850 EVO drives still hasn't dropped far enough to my liking to be "worth it". Especially compared with other, cheaper, planar MLC drives.

(Is the little extra performance of the 120GB 850 EVO worth being over TWICE the price of competitive planar MLC drives? $70 versus $35. Especially given the cap on performance due to the limitations of SATA6G.)

 

[PliotronX]

They did hit the mark correctly with the MX100 & BX100, so, it seems odd for Crucial to be doing this on such a lackluster product.

I have a suspicion that this product isn't ready for prime time yet, either because of reliability issues, or bad yields.

I agree! The BX100 in particular was my go-to for recommending to friends and family because it wasn't unusually weak in any area and was one of the least expensive of the "good" MLC drives. I run one in my desktop and my laptop and have been very happy with them. Based on this recommendation, we helped a client at work set up a RAID-10 array of them within an older out-of-warranty server and it has been fantastic. Now because of the severe loss in performance from the BX200 and now MX300, I have been kind of lost with the recommendations. VirtualLarry's research has helped a lot though (speaking of which, is the JMicron controller of the SP600 or the Phison in the new S60 better in general? )

I just can't figure out the anatomy behind Crucial's moves as of late. Since the m4, they've never dropped performance like this throughout the m500, m550, MX100, MX200 & BX100.. Unless it was a sacrifice with a benefit as a means to an end like $120 1TB TLCs, there is no reason for the BX200 and MX300 to exist with far better choices available. Banking on the name and reputation is only going to get them so far.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Price of 850 EVO drives still hasn't dropped far enough to my liking to be "worth it". Especially compared with other, cheaper, planar MLC drives.

Yeah, but you're a cheapskate. ()

It came out a year and a half ago, and has dropped 30%+ in price. That's good.

I'd also point out the 750 EVO as a point of comparison, since it's Samsung's actual competitor to the race-to-the-bottom off-brand SSDs.

(Is the little extra performance of the 120GB 850 EVO worth being over TWICE the price of competitive planar MLC drives? $70 versus $35. Especially given the cap on performance due to the limitations of SATA6G.)

Depends. Isn't the write endurance pf 40nm VNAND a lot higher too?

Also, are you comparing the price of new drives to refurbished? (I noticed a recent post of yours in the Hot Deals forum.)

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yeah, but you're a cheapskate. ()

Also, are you comparing the price of new drives to refurbished? (I noticed a recent post of yours in the Hot Deals forum.)

No, Newegg on ebay had Kingston V300 MLC w/SandForce controller, SATA6G 2.5", for $34.99 recently. Which isn't a bad overall controller, performance-wise, assuming that you don't run into any SandForce-related bugs or incompatibilities.

Versus, $70 for a 120GB 850 EVO? Ouch!

I mean, the best price that I've seen on the 850 EVO 120GB, was $62.50 ea, if you bought two. (I did.)