Cruz: I’m a Christian first, American second

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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Deep down you know you're wrong. This is typical behavior on your part.

I find this to be completely disengenuous. He'll tell you what he thinks and you will simply claim the bible doesn't say that with no justification.
[ ... ]
I'm not sure why he would waste his time giving you answers when you summarily dismiss them as "mental gymnastics". Here is the short answer.
This has to be the most glaring hypocrisy P&N has ever seen. It's a perfect example of why people here have so much contempt for you.


God didn't "change His mind", God told a specific people to do specific things for specific reasons.
This rationale can be used to selectively dismiss anything in the Bible, especially parts that are inconvenient for your sect's dogma.
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
20
81
That is a much repeated overstatement. While I wont disagree that many of the signers of the declaration were Christian the country was not founded specifically on Christian ideals.

They based this country on the principles of the enlightenment. Your body and work was yours not the kings and your soul was yours not the churches. Basically individual freedom, religious tolerance and increasing scientific rigor.

Franklin and Jefferson put much of that into the Declaration and Constitution.

I mean only 2 - 2 1/2 out of the 10 commandments are reflected in our laws. (Murder, stealing, and lying but only under oath).

www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=78

I found this link and thought it was interesting. It doesn't refute your point that just because they were Christians that they put Christian ideals into the forming of America but it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to be influenced by their beliefs when forming the constitution.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Y'know, truth be told I don't really anymore. I feel that if I'm gonna put the time into working through a book, I better actaully come away with some practical knowledge.
I'm the same way actually, I only read non-fiction and prefer to just take in my fiction through movies/games, that way I'm not devoting too much time to it.

Wonder if Netflix is streaming a Charlton Heston flick right now :sneaky: :awe:
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
20
81
Deep down you know you're wrong. This is typical behavior on your part.
I find this to be completely disengenuous. He'll tell you what he thinks and you will simply claim the bible doesn't say that with no justification.
One can't own another meat machine? Why?
I'm not sure why he would waste his time giving you answers when you summarily dismiss them as "mental gymnastics". Here is the short answer.

God didn't "change His mind", God told a specific people to do specific things for specific reasons.

Oh it doesn't bother me. The bible is fairly easy to understand. At least the generally speaking. There is quite a lot I still don't know but things like this keep me thinking. Mostly people quote the OT and forget about the NT when they are trying to make God look bad. It confused me for a while to as why God seemed to be a Jekyll and Hyde persona between these two covenants. But one thing that I found interesting in the OT is that Satan is only mentioned 3 different times. The garden of Eden, Saul seeming out a witch, and in job. Everything else that was good or evil was attributed to God. And in the KJV it makes it seem that God is out to get you. But I was listening to a scholar who studied the original language and said that in the OT we see phrases like God will smite you with sickness when the actual rendering should be understood that He will allow this to happen to you. Now pair this up with the NT where Jesus is presenting a Father who loves you, and Satan who wants to destroy you and sin that allows evil to happen to you and it becomes a lot clearer how the Bible fits together. The Bible teaches that we are free to make our own choices and it lays out the results.
Many of the laws you read were more cultural than anything else, but that makes sense as the OT was basically a historical document of Israel.
But many of the laws were far more lenient and fare than any other country of that time. Slavery did occur but it wasn't because you were racist but the legal system allowed you to own people. It also protected the slaves. In numbers it talks about if you beat a slave you must let him be free. Then we have the year of jubilee where anyone who was a slave do to owing debt etc was to be made free and have their debt cancelled.

There's just so much more in the Bible than just do's and donts. Jesus summed up the OT law when the Pharisees questioned him on the matter by saying "love God is the greatest commandment and love your neighbor is the second most important". Again Jesus tackles an issue when the Pharisees bring a woman caught in the act of adultery and the law says she should be stoned. They ask Jesus what should be done and He replies whoever is free from sin can stone throw the first stone.

People forget about the mercy and forgiveness and just focus on the law. But just like the court system we have here in the states the law states the maximum punishment but that doesn't mean the courts never give mercy.

Well I just wrote that up quickly so hopefully that makes sense.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Many of the laws you read were more cultural than anything else, but that makes sense as the OT was basically a historical document of Israel.

Hold on a second. God doesn't transcend cultural? He is constrained by the culture from which he arose? The Old Testament is not the holy word of an omnipotent being but merely a historical document written by a bunch of priests? While I agree with you that the Old Testament is nothing more than that, I am perplexed as to how you can keep your faith in the light of that knowledge.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
If you don't like abortion, then just don't get one. See how that works?
If you don't like gay marriage, then just don't get one. See how that works?
If you don't like child molestation then don't molest a child. Doesn't work now does it?

Quit being an idiot.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
This has to be the most glaring hypocrisy P&N has ever seen. It's a perfect example of why people here have so much contempt for you.
I doubt it but even if I am a complete hypocrite that doesn't make bshole's behavior any less "hackish".
This rationale can be used to selectively dismiss anything in the Bible, especially parts that are inconvenient for your sect's dogma.
Not legitimately.

Is God powerful enough to give specific commands to a specific people are persons? Yes. You're powerful enough to do this.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Hold on a second. God doesn't transcend cultural? He is constrained by the culture from which he arose? The Old Testament is not the holy word of an omnipotent being but merely a historical document written by a bunch of priests? While I agree with you that the Old Testament is nothing more than that, I am perplexed as to how you can keep your faith in the light of that knowledge.
He isn't "constrained" but the commands must make sense to the people he's giving them to. And he didn't say what you said he did.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
If you don't like child molestation then don't molest a child. Doesn't work now does it?

Quit being an idiot.

LoL. Lets ask God shall we?

Numbers 31:17
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
How about you defend your other biblical hack jobs before going to another one?

How about you get off of this thread you fucking jagoff. You ruin enough threads, leave this one alone.

While I disagree with elitejp, at least he is intellectually honest, debates issues and makes rational arguments. I respect him for that. You on the other hand are beneath contempt.
 
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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
We got an Internet tough guy on our hands.

No, I don't think I will leave. Put me on ignore.

Having a strong distaste for your abominable behavior on this forum does not make me an internet tough guy, it simply makes me rational.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
While I disagree with elitejp, at least he is intellectually honest, debates issues and makes rational arguments. I respect him for that. You on the other hand are beneath contempt.
I couldn't care less what you think of me. Now, are you going to defend your ridiculous biblical assertions or not? Namely, that God is pro-choice.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Having a strong distaste for your abominable behavior on this forum does not make me an internet tough guy, it simply makes me rational.
Define "abominable behavior" and why is it wrong? Is that based on your opinion or something tangible? Why is the criteria for what you find abominable any different than what cookie flavor you prefer?

You respect elitejp so much that he went through and explained those passages and you dismissed them with a sentence and called them mental gymnastics. You respect him so much that you then listed off a laundry list of other issues that you have no intention of discussing. No, you've disrespected him and wasted his time and showed how much of a complete hack you are. You aren't interested in the truth you just want to WIN.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
So you complaining about Cruz is based on morality? Please explain.

Ah we're back to please explain again.

Next we'll be into another circular argument about evolution again if he goes the usual route.

How about you get off of this thread you fucking jagoff. You ruin enough threads, leave this one alone.

While I disagree with elitejp, at least he is intellectually honest, debates issues and makes rational arguments. I respect him for that. You on the other hand are beneath contempt.

I'm actually backing bshole on this one.
 
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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
I doubt it but even if I am a complete hypocrite that doesn't make bshole's behavior any less "hackish".
Perhaps, but I was talking about you, and how your behavior affects others. You can't feign bewilderment at how others treat you when you pull a stunt like this. You reap what you sow, remember?


Not legitimately.

Is God powerful enough to give specific commands to a specific people are persons? Yes. You're powerful enough to do this.
Of course, but that reinforces my point. Evangelicals like to assert that the Bible is the perfect word of God, and that it must be taken literally, word for word. This is how young Earth creationists justify their nonsensical beliefs, for example. The problem (as you've just demonstrated) is these same people then brush off the huge amount of texts that contradict their particular dogma. The Bible is the perfect word of God ... except for all the parts they subjectively decide don't apply to them today. They pick and choose which parts of the Bible to accept, and which to ignore.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
Perhaps, but I was talking about you, and how your behavior affects others. You can't feign bewilderment at how others treat you when you pull a stunt like this. You reap what you sow, remember?
I was complaining how bshole treated somebody else, a person he says he respects. So that doesn't work.
Of course, but that reinforces my point. Evangelicals like to assert that the Bible is the perfect word of God, and that it must be taken literally, word for word.
Since nobody believes this is that going to affect the rest of your point? Yeah it is.
This is how young Earth creationists justify their nonsensical beliefs, for example.
No YEC that I am aware of takes that view of biblical interpretation.
The problem (as you've just demonstrated) is these same people then brush off the huge amount of texts that contradict their particular dogma. The Bible is the perfect word of God ... except for all the parts they subjectively decide don't apply to them today. They pick and choose which parts of the Bible to accept, and which to ignore.
When you're arguing for taking things out of context you're not on very solid ground.

Nobody says the bible must be taken 100% literally, word for word. That is a caricature and a strawman.
 
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