Cruz: I’m a Christian first, American second

[elitejp]

Then you don't know any evangelical/fundamentalist Christian scholars. That is what they say, and as I showed in my Gallup link, some 28% of Americans believe it.

ya I think I would have said yes to that question as well. And then you could point your finger at me and laugh.How am I supposed to answer that? If I say yes then you say I believe every word is to be taken literally, if I say no then you ask why I don't believe in the Bible.

I absolutely agree, as do most American Christians. They take a more intelligent, reasoned approach, and focus on the overall themes instead of dissecting every single word. Indeed, that's the only rational way to view it given the genesis of its many books, and the ways they've evolved through multiple translations (which sometimes contradict each other).

Actually a good Christian will study the Bible line upon line, precept upon precept. So you are to do both.

That's an entertaining take on the story, but there's no reason to believe the Genesis account is anything more than allegory.

Just like I don't agree that life came accidentally by nothing. Science will never be able to prove that out of absolutely nothing can something just magically appear.

While I don't share your faith, I'm not trying to deny it to you and other Christians. Believe what you wish (as long as you aren't forcing your beliefs on others).

Although I appreciate that I wish it worked both ways. When I have children they will be taught in school that creation is wrong and that evolution is true. When I watch tv I'm taught that the act of homosexuality is ok, or that sleeping around isn't a big deal. The govt is now requiring Christian ministers to go against their beliefs and requiring them to marry homosexual couples. If someone prays in school to God then other people get offended and I'm told that you can't do that but they can curse God all day long. I'm generally ridiculed as being stupid, unenlightened and closed minded in news media, tv, and internet. So I think a lot of what we are seeing is both sides trying to have a voice that says I want my freedom to believe what I want to believe.

 

[bshole]

elitejp,

For me, the fundamental question is the epicurean question. No religion has answered that question to my satisfaction. Why would an omnipotent and omniloving God allow the mountain of suffering associated with life?

If I were God I would have created all beings in heaven with no chance of hell. The only apparent reason that the Christian God created the universe, the earth and human life was as an excuse to send 90+% of his creations to eternal suffering in hell. He could EASILY have avoided the entire charade by creating us in heaven. The Bible tells us that we will have free will in heaven, so that is not an adequate argument.

I was raised as fundamentalist Christian. I never questioned the veracity of the Bible until I graduated college. Interesting enough, even as a Christian I lived in constant of terror of not being really saved and going to hell. I have said it before that I wish I didn't have to die and no longer exist. The prospect scares and depresses me. I wish I could con myself into believing in the myths. The problem is that I have no control of what I believe. I am incapable of forcing myself to believe something without a certain amount of corroborating evidence. ALL RELIGIONS reject EVIDENCE as a way towards truth, THEY ALL require blind faith in the absence of evidence. There are many extremely intelligent humans that can make that jump (their hope trumps their intellect), I simply am not one of them.

I wouldn't encourage you to lose your religion. It is a depressing thing. Threads just like this one had a big impact on me losing mine. I argued the other side. Although I never conceded at the time, the arguments of the atheists resonated with me and mine rang hollow to myself.

 

[elitejp]

Evangelicals like to assert that the Bible is the perfect word of God, and that it must be taken literally, word for word.
​

Evangelicals will say that the Bible is the inspired word of God.
Again I just think the Gallup poll was a little deceiving or easily misunderstood.

 

[buckshot24]

If I were God...

You're not. What you say you would do and not do is pretty irrelevant. It's easy to be on the sidelines and say you'd do this or that but until you are in the position to actually do something you can't say one way or the other what you'd do.

The information gap between you and God is infinite.

 

[Bowfinger]

ya I think I would have said yes to that question as well. And then you could point your finger at me and laugh.How am I supposed to answer that? If I say yes then you say I believe every word is to be taken literally, if I say no then you ask why I don't believe in the Bible. ...

You've confused me with someone else. As I said, you're welcome to your faith (as long as you don't try to force it on others). While I think it's irrational to insist the Bible be taken literally, word for word, it's a free country. The downside to that belief is it pushes many people into extreme positions, e.g., the Earth being only 6,000 years old and it being created in literally seven days. As the majority of Christians show us, neither belief is required in order to believe in God, nor even to believe God created the heavens, the Earth, and life.

Just like I don't agree that life came accidentally by nothing. Science will never be able to prove that out of absolutely nothing can something just magically appear.

That's fine, you don't have to believe it. If you prefer to believe God created the universe, go for it. From your perspective, science is just saying God created the universe with the Big Bang. Science and God don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Although I appreciate that I wish it worked both ways. When I have children they will be taught in school that creation is wrong and that evolution is true. When I watch tv I'm taught that the act of homosexuality is ok, or that sleeping around isn't a big deal. The govt is now requiring Christian ministers to go against their beliefs and requiring them to marry homosexual couples. If someone prays in school to God then other people get offended and I'm told that you can't do that but they can curse God all day long. I'm generally ridiculed as being stupid, unenlightened and closed minded in news media, tv, and internet. So I think a lot of what we are seeing is both sides trying to have a voice that says I want my freedom to believe what I want to believe.

Yep, the drawback to living in a free country is you will be offended (see my .sig). America has both freedom of religion and freedom of speech. If you cannot abide that, you should probably be looking for a country with a theocracy. Sadly, the ones I'm most familiar with are Islamic theocracies, but I haven't looked into it.

As far as your children are concerned, I suggest you be truthful. We live in a secular country with diverse beliefs. Tell them they will be exposed to different views and different values. This means other people will be "sinning" according to your beliefs. But also tell them that Christ told you to love the sinner, even if you hate the sin. Tolerance should be a key Christian value.

I will point out one error in your comments. You claim that the government is requiring ministers to marry homosexuals. To the best of my knowledge, that is completely false. While businesses have been required to provide their commercial services to homosexuals, that does not apply to churches.

 

[buckshot24]

You've confused me with someone else.

He gets what I'm saying and made the same point. Why don't you get it? Your 28% is bogus as nobody takes the bible, word for word, literally.

 

[Retro Rob]

You've confused me with someone else. As I said, you're welcome to your faith (as long as you don't try to force it on others). While I think it's irrational to insist the Bible be taken literally, word for word, it's a free country. The downside to that belief is it pushes many people into extreme positions, e.g., the Earth being only 6,000 years old and it being created in literally seven days. As the majority of Christians show us, neither belief is required in order to believe in God, nor even to believe God created the heavens, the Earth, and life.



That's fine, you don't have to believe it. If you prefer to believe God created the universe, go for it. From your perspective, science is just saying God created the universe with the Big Bang. Science and God don't have to be mutually exclusive.



Yep, the drawback to living in a free country is you will be offended (see my .sig). America has both freedom of religion and freedom of speech. If you cannot abide that, you should probably be looking for a country with a theocracy. Sadly, the ones I'm most familiar with are Islamic theocracies, but I haven't looked into it.

As far as your children are concerned, I suggest you be truthful. We live in a secular country with diverse beliefs. Tell them they will be exposed to different views and different values. This means other people will be "sinning" according to your beliefs. But also tell them that Christ told you to love the sinner, even if you hate the sin. Tolerance should be a key Christian value.

I will point out one error in your comments. You claim that the government is requiring ministers to marry homosexuals. To the best of my knowledge, that is completely false. While businesses have been required to provide their commercial services to homosexuals, that does not apply to churches.

I pretty much agree with entire post.

The problem is that "Christians" nowadays believe that their freedom is being infringed upon when they are no longer allowed to force their beliefs on everyone else.

 

[Bowfinger]

He gets what I'm saying and made the same point. Why don't you get it? Your 28% is bogus as nobody takes the bible, word for word, literally.

Right, because you know better than Gallup, et al. Let's ask President Romney how that worked out.

 

[buckshot24]

Right, because you know better than Gallup, et al. Let's ask President Romney how that worked out.

Excellent point. Gallup had Romney up big didn't they?

All you need to do is find anybody who thinks the bible says God is a sun and shield to prove me wrong.

Nobody takes those passages literally.

 

[zinfamous]

Maybe he should be seeking a high-level religious position instead of a high-level US political position instead, then?

Something I have always wondered myself. But for some, faith is only as great as the power wielding it.

so: politicians.

 

[zinfamous]

You're not. What you say you would do and not do is pretty irrelevant. It's easy to be on the sidelines and say you'd do this or that but until you are in the position to actually do something you can't say one way or the other what you'd do.

The information gap between you and God is infinite.

As is the information gap between myself and my taint.

 

[fskimospy]

He gets what I'm saying and made the same point. Why don't you get it? Your 28% is bogus as nobody takes the bible, word for word, literally.

'Nobody takes the bible literally'

'Here's a poll where 28% of people state they do exactly that'

'Well that poll is wrong because nobody takes the bible literally'

Perfect circular reasoning. Is there any depth of stupidity you're unwilling to go to? Again, you argue like a small child.

 

[buckshot24]

As is the information gap between myself and my taint.

I wouldn't call bshole that...

 

[Retro Rob]

'Nobody takes the bible literally'

'Here's a poll where 28% of people state they do exactly that'

'Well that poll is wrong because nobody takes the bible literally'

Perfect circular reasoning. Is there any depth of stupidity you're unwilling to go to? Again, you argue like a small child.

Y'know, I hate the "do you take the bible literally of symbolically" nonsense because that's not how it works.

The Bible is supposed to explain itself, so in other words, something is taken literally or symbolically based on other passages concerning that subject, or based on the context of whatever one is reading.

Mainly, when people want to keep the Bible relevant in line with contemporary society and contemporary science, they arbitrarily decide what's literal or not.

It pisses me off, personally...

 

[IronWing]

False dichotomy.

Nobody takes the bible 100% literally, period.

Listen punk, I'm the only one on this here forum who gets to speak ex cathedra. And, as usual, you are wrong.

 

[fskimospy]

Y'know, I hate the "do you take the bible literally of symbolically" nonsense because that's not how it works.

The Bible is supposed to explain itself, so in other words, something is taken literally or symbolically based on other passages concerning that subject, or based on the context of whatever one is reading.

Mainly, when people want to keep the Bible relevant in line with contemporary society and contemporary science, they arbitrarily decide what's literal or not.

It pisses me off, personally...

It is always a bit funny to me how the bible becomes less literal as science advances, haha. That being said, I feel like it means something different to everyone and that's okay. If I did believe in God and think that he was attempting to use the bible to communicate with all people it seems like it would almost have to be something that could speak to lots of different people in lots of different ways.

I feel like you're someone who has a pretty strong faith but you seem to be able to look at it with a critical eye from time to time. It's sad that people like buckshot are so insecure in their faith that they make a mockery of it while trying to defend it.

 

[IronWing]

The Bible is supposed to explain itself, ...

Really? That's a tall order. Quite frankly, it smacks of divination.

 

[buckshot24]

'Nobody takes the bible literally'

'Here's a poll where 28% of people state they do exactly that'

'Well that poll is wrong because nobody takes the bible literally'

Perfect circular reasoning. Is there any depth of stupidity you're unwilling to go to? Again, you argue like a small child.

Nobody takes the bible 100% literally, period. All you need to do is find one person who thinks God is a sun and a shield to prove me wrong. If you prove me wrong I would ask somebody to quote him since he is and will always be on the list.

 

[buckshot24]

Y'know, I hate the "do you take the bible literally of symbolically" nonsense because that's not how it works.

The Bible is supposed to explain itself, so in other words, something is taken literally or symbolically based on other passages concerning that subject, or based on the context of whatever one is reading.

Mainly, when people want to keep the Bible relevant in line with contemporary society and contemporary science, they arbitrarily decide what's literal or not.

It pisses me off, personally...

I don't like that either but that doesn't mean there isn't symbolic language in the bible that is obvious. No biblical scholar of any stripe takes the bible 100% literally.

 

[buckshot24]

Listen punk, I'm the only one on this here forum who gets to speak ex cathedra. And, as usual, you are wrong.

Really? Who thinks God is a sun and a shield?

 

[fskimospy]

Nobody takes the bible 100% literally, period. All you need to do is find one person who thinks God is a sun and a shield to prove me wrong. If you prove me wrong I would ask somebody to quote him since he is and will always be on the list.

You continually responding to people you claim to be ignoring is one of the funnier things about this.

I don't have to do anything. Proof has already been provided. The only thing you should be doing is admitting you were wrong right about now. Grow up.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

He gets what I'm saying and made the same point. Why don't you get it? Your 28% is bogus as nobody takes the bible, word for word, literally.

Nobody would call those 28% particularly intelligent or rational, but it remains that they exist.

Nobody here is obligated to defend the ridiculous things that those Christians believe, but it remains that they exist.

You claimed that they don't exist. You are wrong. In response, we've all been treated to yet another display of the extraordinary mental gymnastics you regularly employ to preserve your own little bubble of imaginary reality.

The only thing you've succeeded in doing is convincing the rest of us that your beliefs are not in any way grounded in reality, and we can safely disregard your claims as the confused delusions of a mind addled by religion.

 

[IronWing]

Really? Who thinks God is a sun and a shield?

28% of Americans do, unless you think a whole bunch of Christians are liars.


This is fun. I learned this particular debating technique from a Campus Crusade dickhead.

 

[Retro Rob]

It is always a bit funny to me how the bible becomes less literal as science advances, haha.

You are right about that, actually. And this seems to be because they want to keep it in a position of power in the secular world.

Problem is, the Bible doesn't need to be relevant to secularists for it to have relevance.

This is simple to understand, in my opinion.

I feel like you're someone who has a pretty strong faith but you seem to be able to look at it with a critical eye from time to time. It's sad that people like buckshot are so insecure in their faith that they make a mockery of it while trying to defend it.

Thanks. It just that I am personally hard to convince and never have believed something just because someone said I should believe it.

 

[buckshot24]

28% of Americans do, unless you think a whole bunch of Christians are liars.

Why is that the only option?

No Christian thinks the bible teaches that God is a literal sun and a literal shield, none.