Cruz: I’m a Christian first, American second

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Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,108
1,260
126
The genesis account did happen. People animals plant life etc happened within six literal 24 hr days.

This never happened. There is evidence that this did not occur and could not have occurred.

I have no interest in belittling people who choose to be religious, religion has been and continues to slowly ebb away as humans have gained the ability to understand the true nature of things rather than resort to making up stories. We are already seeing a natural progression away from mysticism, the only thing needed to help it along is continued discovery and research, not hopeless debate against entrenched faiths. There is no sensible debate with faith belief systems, because there is not one iota of evidence in support of these beliefs, versus the mountains of evidence that prove them false. When you put away the feelings that foster faith; fear primarily and irrational imagination, there is nothing on faith's side to actually debate on but a book of stories. But this above quote is an example of what religion expects you to do; be irrational and believe falsehoods about the nature of the physical universe.

No amount of wordsmithing or justifications ever escape an end-game of having to believe things that are simply untrue in order to remain faithful to your chosen dogma.

Faith in religions comes about from human's self awareness. Manifests from that awareness due to it making us conscious of our inevitable death. That knowledge is a weakness that can be exploited. Fear of death, fear of the death of those we care about and fear of the threat religions use for not following them. It's an exploitation of fear and uncertainty. There is also the ego component because we have this inherent sense that the human animal is somehow special from having the most advanced brain letting us dominate the Earth. A better understanding of the physically very minute differences between humans and other species helps the realization that it's only very tiny differences that give way to our species' particular traits. We have the largest primate brain and that gave way to self-awareness. It's nothing magical or special, no matter how much it 'feels right' to think so, we're only a few steps away from other primates and in fact all species share much of the same DNA as we do, holding up our shared ancestry with everything else on the planet.

Society is going to be better off once religion has been relegated to the fringes. It's not even so much the conflicts and strife the differences in the various beliefs cause. The worst offense is the waste of time. We have a very short time here and all the time wasted squabbling over and devoting to these myths is time wasted. One of the most poignant thing said about faith and how silly it is, is that it is geographical. If you were born in the Middle East, you'd likely be a Muslim and believe that. In North America, you'll likely be a Christian. In Israel, probably Jewish. You wouldn't have found your way to your current faith somehow, you'd just believe the one you were born around and raised into. In most cases it holds out that one's particular religion is a matter of coincidence of geographic birth location, your parents beliefs and your strength of conviction for or against what they may have tried to instill in you. There is no universal constant to it like all the faiths would claim where the 'one true faith' transcends your exposure to one of the other 'incorrect faiths' due to geographic birth location.
 
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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
If you're not a father, you might find that becoming one widens your perspective on this question. This question troubles me still, but it troubles me less than it did when I was childless. Fathers are called upon to permit and even inflict pain upon the children they love, for those children's own good. It's not hard to see that as an allegory to God's nature regarding pain.

At any rate, if you sincerely are trying to answer this question, I invite you to read the Problem of Pain by CS Lewis.


I find the Epicurean question quite interesting. I think I have seen all the apologist arguments (including yours above) and none of them worked for me.

The problem with your argument is that millions of people starve to death around the world. For people who aren't Christian, it is impossible for me to see how starving to death in this world and then spending an eternity in Hell in the next can in any way be "good for them". I certainly would never treat my children in this way.

The Christian counter to this is "God works in mysterious ways". For me at least, this is just a copout.

If God exists and he really wants us to go to Heaven, he could convince me and millions like me easily. Have a Christian minister go on Fox news and have him restore a lost limb in the name of Jesus. That simple act would be enough to me. You can't go two pages in the Bible without running into another miracle. Odd that in an age of instant verification and dissemination, God can't be bothered to give any signs. My theory for this is that the God of the Bible does not exist and therefor real verifiable miracles can never occur.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,282
28,141
136
Just so I understand Rafael has admitted if he has to make a decision where there is a conflict between the constitution and the bible he will side with the bible?

The head of the Christian Taliban is running for POTUS?
 

justoh

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2013
3,686
81
91
What's the point of baptism if you're born as a christian? Even then, it would be a tie (and not first). Stupid christians...
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
The Christian counter to this is "God works in mysterious ways". For me at least, this is just a copout.
When your mom put you in bed when you were two you probably thought mommy was mean. You were wrong then, how are you right now when the information gap between you and God are infinite?
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
What's the point of baptism if you're born as a christian? Even then, it would be a tie (and not first). Stupid christians...
Who is born a Christian? A person may be born into a family with Christian parents but that doesn't make the kids Christian.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
If God exists and he really wants us to go to Heaven, he could convince me and millions like me easily. Have a Christian minister go on Fox news and have him restore a lost limb in the name of Jesus. That simple act would be enough to me. You can't go two pages in the Bible without running into another miracle. Odd that in an age of instant verification and dissemination, God can't be bothered to give any signs. My theory for this is that the God of the Bible does not exist and therefor real verifiable miracles can never occur.

So all someone has to do is throw you a miracle bone (or limb in your case) and you will follow them like some hungry puppy while believing they are God and not something else?

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
So all someone has to do is throw you a miracle bone (or limb in your case) and you will follow them like some hungry puppy while believing they are God and not something else?

...and how do you know that the God you think you're following is not just a lying evil trickster misleading you?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Was Ted Cruz's health taken care of by Canadian socialized medicine when he was a kid?
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Yes, he was eating a dog sandwich and got sick, had to go in. Lots of dog sandwiches in Hawaii...
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,685
6,195
126
Grooveriding: This never happened. There is evidence that this did not occur and could not have occurred.

He isn't a person who understands that God exists regardless of what is in religious texts nor is he a doubter who sees absurdity in them and doubts. What you are doing is grouping with a believer who has irrelevant details all wrong. That tells us nothing about God.

G: I have no interest in belittling people who choose to be religious, religion has been and continues to slowly ebb away as humans have gained the ability to understand the true nature of things rather than resort to making up stories.

M: Science does not tell us the true nature of things. It reveals to rational minds explanations for things that reveal notions of how the universe works that can be tested. Rational people like such explanations over guesses that can't be tested.

G: We are already seeing a natural progression away from mysticism, the only thing needed to help it along is continued discovery and research, not hopeless debate against entrenched faiths.

M: A story about God that is false does not prove that God does not exist. It tells us the story is not factual.

G: There is no sensible debate with faith belief systems, because there is not one iota of evidence in support of these beliefs, versus the mountains of evidence that prove them false. When you put away the feelings that foster faith; fear primarily and irrational imagination, there is nothing on faith's side to actually debate on but a book of stories. But this above quote is an example of what religion expects you to do; be irrational and believe falsehoods about the nature of the physical universe.

M: You have no faith in such stories yet you have considerable faith that you know why people who believe in them do. You seen to have a belief in this story you tell yourself.

G: No amount of wordsmithing or justifications ever escape an end-game of having to believe things that are simply untrue in order to remain faithful to your chosen dogma.

M: Why would the existence of God depend on the accuracy of this or that dogma?

G: Faith in religions comes about from human's self awareness. Manifests from that awareness due to it making us conscious of our inevitable death. That knowledge is a weakness that can be exploited. Fear of death, fear of the death of those we care about and fear of the threat religions use for not following them. It's an exploitation of fear and uncertainty.

M: That's quite an interesting story. Do you have scientific proof or have you just decided to believe it on faith.

G: There is also the ego component because we have this inherent sense that the human animal is somehow special from having the most advanced brain letting us dominate the Earth.

M: Ah, an inherent faith.... I want, then, to tell you that the knowledge of the existence of God in inherent to human nature, those of us who know our human natures, that is.

G: A better understanding of the physically very minute differences between humans and other species helps the realization that it's only very tiny differences that give way to our species' particular traits. We have the largest primate brain and that gave way to self-awareness. It's nothing magical or special, no matter how much it 'feels right' to think so, we're only a few steps away from other primates and in fact all species share much of the same DNA as we do, holding up our shared ancestry with everything else on the planet.

M: And? Every rational educated person is aware of the scientific evidence for that. It has nothing to do with the existence of God question.

G: Society is going to be better off once religion has been relegated to the fringes. It's not even so much the conflicts and strife the differences in the various beliefs cause. The worst offense is the waste of time. We have a very short time here and all the time wasted squabbling over and devoting to these myths is time wasted.

G: I assume you gather these assumptions bases on the study of countless advanced civilizations that have abandoned belies in whatever God may be in favor of rejection of all such concepts. I would love to see the evidence because without it I would have to assume it all to be a matter of your conjecture.

M: One of the most poignant thing said about faith and how silly it is, is that it is geographical. If you were born in the Middle East, you'd likely be a Muslim and believe that. In North America, you'll likely be a Christian. In Israel, probably Jewish. You wouldn't have found your way to your current faith somehow, you'd just believe the one you were born around and raised into. In most cases it holds out that one's particular religion is a matter of coincidence of geographic birth location, your parents beliefs and your strength of conviction for or against what they may have tried to instill in you.

M: This is an excellent argument for why the dogmas of various faith can't be mutually accurate. It tells us that people take as fact many things that can't actually be fact. It doesn't prove or disprove anything else.


G: There is no universal constant to it like all the faiths would claim where the 'one true faith' transcends your exposure to one of the other 'incorrect faiths' due to geographic birth location.

M: There is no universal constant in your opinion because you don't see one; probably it's because of the geographical and temporal origins of your doubt-faith.

Religion happens because everywhere ind thought all of human time there have been, are, and wifi be people who die to the illusion of a personal self and awaken to the oneness of love. God is when the self we know as ego is not.

Religions are all ego corruptions of of methodologies designed to help people die to their egos. Some actually find there way by those ancient tools.

Why would you want to close a door that is closed for you for others for whom it may open?
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
So all someone has to do is throw you a miracle bone (or limb in your case) and you will follow them like some hungry puppy while believing they are God and not something else?

Absolutely yes. Doing something that clearly defies the natural laws of the universe in the name of a deity is my definition of objective evidence. For me, evidence does matter. If there was a God and he provided evidence, I would believe.

Note here, I am talking about a REAL miracle, not the shit that Christians try to pass off as miracles. Another example would be if God instantly beamed the whole of humanity into his presence simultaneously, told us he existed and told us what our purpose in life was.

We all have our own standards of evidence to believe. That is mine. You seem to scoff that I would believe in a God if he provided evidence of his existence. Are you saying that no amount of objective evidence would convince you of the existence of God?
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,084
1,505
126
The problem with your argument is that millions of people starve to death around the world. For people who aren't Christian, it is impossible for me to see how starving to death in this world and then spending an eternity in Hell in the next can in any way be "good for them". I certainly would never treat my children in this way.

The way I see it, there is no possible way heaven can exist. No person who is good could possibly be in heaven, because no person who is good could be happy in heaven if even a single person is in hell. For any reason. Good people simply can't abide by others being tormented and tortured. And therefore if no good people can be in heaven, then heaven cannot exist. And ipso facto hell cannot exist.

Just so I understand Rafael has admitted if he has to make a decision where there is a conflict between the constitution and the bible he will side with the bible?

The head of the Christian Taliban is running for POTUS?

This alone should invalidate him as President to anyone who actually believes in American principles.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,505
27,801
136
The way I see it, there is no possible way heaven can exist. No person who is good could possibly be in heaven, because no person who is good could be happy in heaven if even a single person is in hell. For any reason. Good people simply can't abide by others being tormented and tortured. And therefore if no good people can be in heaven, then heaven cannot exist. And ipso facto hell cannot exist.

You were doing good until the end. You argument doesn't support the nonexistence of hell.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
The way I see it, there is no possible way heaven can exist. No person who is good could possibly be in heaven, because no person who is good could be happy in heaven if even a single person is in hell. For any reason. Good people simply can't abide by others being tormented and tortured. And therefore if no good people can be in heaven, then heaven cannot exist. And ipso facto hell cannot exist.
What if the person in hell is getting exactly what they've always wanted?
 
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