Cryptocoin Mining?

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gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,777
1,226
136
barring some massive investment in bitcoins driving the price up, the pattern will be pretty simple: decreasing number of miners as block rewards go down crossing the threshold for power costs and winter heating serendipity will result in only asic miners with marginal power rates as the last ones standing.

the main issue I see is the funding of the next gen of asic. the majority of the gpu miners were people with disposable income(and a few who went into debt) who spent a large chunk to acquire the next gen hardware with the presumption of future profits offsetting the outlay.

Im assuming only the really dedicated or the ones with low electricity rates were the ones who made the jump to asic or fpga. they however funded most of that development with profits from the gpu mining era. with each block reward halving, the potential money available from mining to be reinvested into hardware development will fall off pretty quick. imagine your R&D budget getting chopped every year, how many companies will have the latest and greatest products every cycle?

anyone who goes past the gpu mining era will have to watch projected earnings vs upgrade cycle very carefully around block halving.

the final group of hashers(will no longer be mining) will be the infrastructure for the bitcoin system, responsible for transaction processing only with very marginal profits/transaction fees. that means the number of asic orders will reach a cutoff point where the volume will be very low making the asp very high. i dont know if the profit margins at that time will be enough to justify hardware replacement on the irregular schedule of system failures.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,386
31
91
I am not trying to say that increased mining costs will cause market price of BTC to increase. I am saying that the existing mining costs are so low that they do not allow the market price of BTC to increase. A subtle difference, which you haven't addressed.

It could be that market pressure would push the value of BTC up, but it's being held back because potential big investors would rather focus on mining coins than buying them when the mining cost is lower than the market price.

There's still only X amount of bitcoins released per day. You can only increase your share of that number, you can't increase the total number.
Saying mining is halving BTC prices is like saying Microcenter's $99 i5 2500k set the dollar's value at 50 cents. (Why would I buy a dollar for a dollar when I can buy an i5 2500k for $99 and sell it for $200?) The fact is you can't buy an infinite number of i5 2500k's for $99, just as you can't buy an infinite number of bitcoins for $X each in electricity. The fire sale mined bitcoins are only a tiny percentage of the total quantity and mining has zero scalability into increasing that share (there's no investment I can make that would allow me to mine 10 million bitcoins per day and make me the major supplier of bitcoins.)
 

philipma1957

Golden Member
Jan 8, 2012
1,714
0
76
well the next halving is in 4 years, the interesting change will be asics . How many and how fast.
I expect a rise in price over the next few weeks maybe 16 to 18 usd then a crash as a big sell off occurs late dec to early jan. May go down to 6 or 7 usd. At this points the asics will come out killing off gpu mining. Since I get the boost with heating bill dropping by 1 dollar for every 3 on electric I will push on until march or April.

I can't see this surviving past the next halving. I do think it could last 3 or 4 years. Halving in 2016 has to kill it off, but I thought iPads would be as big a bust as the cube was.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
There's still only X amount of bitcoins released per day. You can only increase your share of that number, you can't increase the total number.

True to point, but the potential increase is pretty massive. Difficulty is set such that 1 block should be discovered every 10 minutes on average. That is 6 blocks per hour, 144 blocks per day, 3600 bitcoins per day, at current trading numbers that is $45,0000.

My point is not that everyone who wants bitcoins will just mine them if mining is $.000001 cheaper. But many will mine if mining is half the price, or 25% cheaper. And for most bitcoin users, I think it's safe to say average daily needs of bitcoins are well below 3600, so hitting the hard limit of coins produced per day (on average) is not really a factor for any typical user.

Saying mining is halving BTC prices is like saying Microcenter's $99 i5 2500k set the dollar's value at 50 cents. (Why would I buy a dollar for a dollar when I can buy an i5 2500k for $99 and sell it for $200?) The fact is you can't buy an infinite number of i5 2500k's for $99, just as you can't buy an infinite number of bitcoins for $X each in electricity. The fire sale mined bitcoins are only a tiny percentage of the total quantity and mining has zero scalability into increasing that share (there's no investment I can make that would allow me to mine 10 million bitcoins per day and make me the major supplier of bitcoins.)

The difference being it's vastly easier to sell a bitcoin for cash than a CPU. Bitcoins don't limit 1 purchase per person. Bitcoins can be mined anywhere, not everyone has a Microcenter in their backyard.

Besides all that, go look at some old posts in the hot deals forum. The Microcenter pricing DOES limit the potential of what other people are willing to pay. There are many CPU "hot deals" where several posters respond "nice price, but not as good as Microcenter, pass". This is why I suggest that mining cost can hold back market value. If mining cost is $8, and market value is $12, potential buyers will look at the options and say "nah, I'm not going to buy from mtgox, I'll just mine them myself for less". Now that mining costs has effectively doubled, that factor is no longer holding back the value.

That said, ASIC mining potential is a big unknown and could be doing the same thing that mining was doing previously. I know I am not going to buy any coins right now because I feel that over time I'd get more return from a BFL single. I could be wrong, it's something unknowable at this point without knowing the future difficulty levels, but I could also be right. And there are many other potential ASIC miners who could be thinking the same thing as me.
 

OVerLoRDI

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
5,490
4
81
Price does not follow difficulty, which halving the reward is essentially doubling the difficulty.

If anything difficulty follows price, meaning that if price stays static we will likely see difficulty drop a bit as gpu miners throw in the towel. It also depends on how fast butterfly labs ships units.

My prediction is that price will continue to move around like bitcoin always had, lots of sideways with occasional bursts of activity in either direction.
 

Dark Shroud

Golden Member
Mar 26, 2010
1,576
1
0
Yeah I'm already feeling the hurt. I'm waiting to see how this goes by the end of next week.

I did not have the money to get into the FPGA boards. So this will be interesting to see how my GPU set up fairs.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
I already sold my 7850 a few weeks ago, my 7770 is about to be sold, and the rest will get sold after that. To me, cards lose value every day due to depreciation and can break at any time, so I just want to sell now while my cards still have value. If HD8xxx and GTX 7xx get delayed by a lot, I might hang on slightly longer, but still, there's no sense in getting greedy. It was a good run while it lasted.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Selling cards now is probably smart, the halving hurts but the difficulty inflation ASIC devices cause will be 10 times worse.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,777
1,226
136
lol, if you looked at hash power distribution by pools on bitcoinwatch from before and after 210k block, the size of 'other' shrunk by maybe half.

there might have been some truth to the claims that the asic vendors were hording the units and running them before the reward halving.
 

OVerLoRDI

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
5,490
4
81
lol, if you looked at hash power distribution by pools on bitcoinwatch from before and after 210k block, the size of 'other' shrunk by maybe half.

there might have been some truth to the claims that the asic vendors were hording the units and running them before the reward halving.

Makes a lot if sense. There is a massive incentive for asic vendors to hold on to the units and use then prior to the reward halving.
 

philipma1957

Golden Member
Jan 8, 2012
1,714
0
76
Makes a lot if sense. There is a massive incentive for asic vendors to hold on to the units and use then prior to the reward halving.


I have to agree in fact as near as my math works if asic gear works as advertised they shoul dnot even sell it.

Even with halved blocks.selling 300tb of hash power is not to bright in my book.
 
Feb 19, 2001
20,155
23
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you should probably read the last few pages, you are going to be very disappointed in your returns.

I am. 0.1 BTC/day is -_____-. I made 1 BTC/day before. Boo. I mean I've already seen my production drop quite a bit. When I was mining in Sept/Oct, it was already down to like 0.25/day.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
someone bought a large volume of coins. 60k in volume.

has nothing to do with some mysterious force taking mercy on miners.

That is the first I've heard of this, is there any real evidence or is this just a theory of yours?

On the other hand, there was a massive 12k coin sell-off recently, value droped a bit briefly but it bounced back to ~$13.5 fairly quick. I wouldn't count on the value to continue to rise (though I certainly hope it will) but I don't think the current value is a fake bubble caused by one big purchase either.

I mean, who would even do that? $780,000 spent buying BTC just to influence the price up? Doesn't seem very logical. (Disclaimer: market forces don't really obey logic.)
 
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