Cryptocoin Mining?

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blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
Why does everyone keep saying it's no point due to ROI? I thought it was still profitable to mine LTC and/or altcoins?

Imagine you bought a silver mine for $1 billion. Then imagine you hire workers to work the mine for $1 million per day. Imagine that at first, the mine has lots of high-quality ore so it doesn't take as much effort to produce silver, thus you get $10 million per day. Imagine that every 3.5 days, the returns drop, say, 1-15%, because the quality of remaining ore is getting worse and worse.

This is where mining stands today. Difficulty keeps going up (albeit not in a straight line, it has ups and downs) = ore grades dropping. Workers must be paid = electricity costs. The silver mine = your hardware specifically purchased for mining, but not including the cost of any hardware you would have purchased even if coin prices were zero.

ROI = return on investment. It's easy to see that if you bought a mine for $1 billion, you will never make your money back if you make $10 million per day and the average difficulty increase is 1-15% per 3.5 days.

Similarly, you can plug in your numbers at http://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/calculator and set difficulty increase per increment to something realistic. http://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/difficulty Then click on Month to see how long it takes to pay back the hardware. If your electric prices are 10-15 cents, it would take only a 2-4% increase per difficulty increment to make it so that a $400 7970 will never pay for itself assuming constant prices.

Now, if you think prices per coin will go way up to make it feasible to make more than what you put into mining, why would you buy the silver mine in the first place? You are better off buying silver coins directly and simply holding them. If you think prices will go up slowly, or go down and then up, or go down and down some more, it may still be better to mine than buy and hold. But timing financial markets is very difficult, and most people do worse than random chance when they try to time the stock market.

Ask around on any cryptocurrency forum and you will hear the same: buy and hold is more profitable, mining is profitable as well but requires way more money up front and more headaches. Historically it's been 10-20x more profitable to simply hold onto coins for long periods of time (more than a year). Some people are fearful about buying coins directly because "omg what if coin prices to go zero," but miners get screwed too if coins go to zero, since miners have to put up WAY more money up front to make the same profits as buy-and-holders, and keep paying for electricity every day as well. There are definitely scenarios where longtime miners would be worse off than someone who bought-and-held cryptocurrency directly, like if you bought a bunch of expensive gear and mined for a year and then the coins went to zero, you'd have a bunch of depreciated hardware and a ton of power bills. The least risky way to get around this is to sell coins off immediately as you mine them, but then you will have a lot fewer coins if prices do go up. And even if you sell-as-you-mine, the way difficulty is going, if prices don't go way up, a new card now is not going to pay for itself (see above, a mere 1.7% increase in difficulty per increment makes a $400 7970 unable to pay for itself at 15 cents/kWh).
 
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pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
Similarly, you can plug in your numbers here and set difficulty increase per increment to something realistic. http://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/difficulty Then click on Month to see how long it takes to pay back the hardware. If your electric prices are 10-15 cents, it would take only a 2-4% increase per difficulty increment to make it so that a $400 7970 will never pay for itself assuming constant prices.

(see above, a mere 1.7% increase in difficulty per increment makes a $400 7970 unable to pay for itself).

I agree with everything you wrote, but it's worth noting that a "mere 1.7% increase in difficulty per increment" is a 14.4% monthly increase. When you write 1.7% it sounds small but that's because increments are small so they add up quickly. And a 4% increment increase is a 37% monthly increase... which is massively higher than historical data for LTC (but not for BTC).

I have no idea what a realistic trendline for LTC is but barring the unveiling of a low-cost ASIC or another very power efficient low-cost method to dramatically increase hash rate efficiency/cost, I can't imagine that we will see numbers much higher than 1-2% per increment.

Also, saying a 1.7% increase per increment makes a $400 7970 unable to pay for itself is also dependent on electricity rates - I pay $0.054/kWh for the first 800kWh, and then 0.086 for the next 1000kWh after that and so my table looks very different from a profitability perspective.

But my nitpicks aside, I agree with what you are saying and it's a great explanation of difficulty increases... which is a subject that a lot of people seem confused by (including myself and my friends some times).
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
There was an article in Forbes about a new Zerocoin thing, they are just going to fully divorce from bitcoin and start anew, with new miners and software etc. (separate wallet too?).

My question is: will the new zerocoin be based on Sha256 like bitcoin, and be mined by ASICS? Or will it be based on scrypt like litecoin/dogecoin etc. and still be relevant for GPU miners?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2014/01/13/bitcoin-anonymity-upgrade-zerocoin-to-become-its-own-cryptocurrency/

Also, does anyone else think it's better to convert any alt-coins into bitcoins right now? Or continue holding the altcoins (litecoin specifically)?

I am wondering if the crossover point for litecoin is approaching, where difficulty causes mining to exceed the cost of electricity, so everyone pulls out (like a run on the bank) and it totally crashes. But then, an ASIC is released, and the value skyrockets? I think Bitcoin would be immune to this and maybe safer to ride out that transition when litecoin crosses over (or is there already a term to describe when alt coins crossover of being no longer profitable because of mining electricity costs in view of difficulty)?
 

nwo

Platinum Member
Jun 21, 2005
2,309
0
71
What you are saying makes no sense. Nobody knows exact date when ASIC will be released and how it will impact the value of the coin. Only thing we know is that if the network hashrate goes up, so will the difficulty.

If you think the price will skyrocket why would you want to pull out now (or anytime soon) when the price is (still) hovering around the average of ~$20?

I doubt highly doubt that the price will plummet before the release of ASICS or that ASICS will somehow magically kill GPU mining overnight.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
I agree with everything you wrote, but it's worth noting that a "mere 1.7% increase in difficulty per increment" is a 14.4% monthly increase. When you write 1.7% it sounds small but that's because increments are small so they add up quickly. And a 4% increment increase is a 37% monthly increase... which is massively higher than historical data for LTC (but not for BTC).

I have no idea what a realistic trendline for LTC is but barring the unveiling of a low-cost ASIC or another very power efficient low-cost method to dramatically increase hash rate efficiency/cost, I can't imagine that we will see numbers much higher than 1-2% per increment.

Also, saying a 1.7% increase per increment makes a $400 7970 unable to pay for itself is also dependent on electricity rates - I pay $0.054/kWh for the first 800kWh, and then 0.086 for the next 1000kWh after that and so my table looks very different from a profitability perspective.

But my nitpicks aside, I agree with what you are saying and it's a great explanation of difficulty increases... which is a subject that a lot of people seem confused by (including myself and my friends some times).

I did say 10-15 cents/kWh earlier when giving the 2-4 percent figure, but I added it to both places in my post to make it clearer, thanks.

I hope you're right about hashing power, but I think you are very optimistic about slow growth rates. (And yes you're right that 1.7%/increment = 14.4%/month.)

LTC mining difficulty exploded once the popular press got ahold of the $1200 bitcoin story. Oct. 31 to Nov. 30 was an increase of 60.6%. Difficulty then increased by 82.7% from Nov. 30 to Dec. 30, 2013. January 1 to January 12 saw difficulty rise 22.8% in 11 days (from 3168 to 3891).

Then consider scrypt ASICs are already in production and it's only a matter of time before they ship, and it seems almost inevitable that hashrate will grow more than 14.4%/month.

There was an article in Forbes about a new Zerocoin thing, they are just going to fully divorce from bitcoin and start anew, with new miners and software etc. (separate wallet too?).

My question is: will the new zerocoin be based on Sha256 like bitcoin, and be mined by ASICS? Or will it be based on scrypt like litecoin/dogecoin etc. and still be relevant for GPU miners?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygre...de-zerocoin-to-become-its-own-cryptocurrency/

Also, does anyone else think it's better to convert any alt-coins into bitcoins right now? Or continue holding the altcoins (litecoin specifically)?

I am wondering if the crossover point for litecoin is approaching, where difficulty causes mining to exceed the cost of electricity, so everyone pulls out (like a run on the bank) and it totally crashes. But then, an ASIC is released, and the value skyrockets? I think Bitcoin would be immune to this and maybe safer to ride out that transition when litecoin crosses over (or is there already a term to describe when alt coins crossover of being no longer profitable because of mining electricity costs in view of difficulty)?

Bitcoin is backed by nothing but network effects, but network effects are very real and powerful. As long as bitcoin remains "good enough," I expect it to dominate. If something clearly superior comes along, I'm not so sure. But if someone wants to replace bitcoin they have to make something better, not just imitate it. Bitcoin has the largest market cap, the most developed exchanges, the most vendors that accept it, etc. Litecoin shares a lot of code and co-development with bitcoin so it's like the favored child among all the altcoins. I'd be very nervous if I had to hold my life savings in bitcoin for 10 years, even more nervous about litecoin, and terrified if I had to hold it in any other cryptocoin.

On your other topic, repeat after me: price drives difficulty, not the other way around. If difficulty skyrockets it doesn't necessarily mean price will follow suit. At most it means that miners may be less willing to part with coins unless they get a higher price, but since mining represents a tiny, tiny trickle of coins compared to what's already been mined, supply won't be affected much. In the short term, if you are drawing supply and demand curves, the supply of a major coin like BTC or LTC is a straight line up and down. Furthermore, some miners sell-as-they-mine so you're always going to get at least part of the trickle of freshly mined coins going into exchanges no matter what difficulty does.
 
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Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
136
A thought crossed my mind. Perhaps someone hooked up their mining rig to some ridiculously expensive solar power assembly...
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
ugghhhh too many coins scattered throughout many pools. Need to consolidate everything to BTC or LTC.

TheStilt is awesome....upped my hashrates by 100+ k/h per card. Funny how a random dude basically did the manufacturer's job better then them.

Netcodepool was hacked which is whom I've been mining Coinye with for the past couple days. Nothing is missing for me though. What and which pools is everyone mining now?
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
86
ugghhhh too many coins scattered throughout many pools. Need to consolidate everything to BTC or LTC.

TheStilt is awesome....upped my hashrates by 100+ k/h per card. Funny how a random dude basically did the manufacturer's job better then them.

Netcodepool was hacked which is whom I've been mining Coinye with for the past couple days. Nothing is missing for me though. What and which pools is everyone mining now?

I wouldn't call a person with direct access to AMD's official bios signing hash as well as schematics of Bulldozer and Phenom as "Some Random Dude"........
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
What you are saying makes no sense. Nobody knows exact date when ASIC will be released and how it will impact the value of the coin. Only thing we know is that if the network hashrate goes up, so will the difficulty.

If you think the price will skyrocket why would you want to pull out now (or anytime soon) when the price is (still) hovering around the average of ~$20?

I doubt highly doubt that the price will plummet before the release of ASICS or that ASICS will somehow magically kill GPU mining overnight.

The way I see it, is there has to be some effect when a crypto currency crosses over the point where it costs more electricity to mine than the results of that mining, due to difficulty increases. Surely people will change their ways at that point? I'm not sure I understand why someone would continue mining if it takes more electricity than that coin is worth? But I was not involved with bitcoin to see how everyone behaved when that happened to bitcoin, at least I assume that it did, where it was no longer profitable to mine bitcoin on GPUs because of the electricity cost and difficulty? Shouldn't litecoin follow down the same path? Even so, I would think people still might behave a little differently than before, because there are so many alt coins too.

My thinking about pulling out is based on the assumption that a person would not mine if it burns more electricity than you'd make by mining, causing a net loss at the time you are mining.

My thinking about possible price crash is if miners gives up on mining litecoin because it's not profitable, and decide to sell off litecoin to trade it for bitcoin. This could be for some future unknown effect, such as the introduction of an ASIC miner, which I'm starting to think is inevitable just like bitcoin. So I wonder if, just like bitcoin, you'd see people get out, a sort of crash, and then an odd resurgence in value or skyrocket. I have no idea, just wondering out loud, and whether litecoin, and all alt coins, are destined for the same sort of virtual currency life cycle where GPU miners start it off, difficulty gets too high to be profitable for them, there is some selling off and prices crash, ASICs come in, and price skyrockets.

Personally I will continue mining until the cost of electricity exceeds the money accumulated by the resulting coins mined.
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
On your other topic, repeat after me: price drives difficulty, not the other way around. If difficulty skyrockets it doesn't necessarily mean price will follow suit.
...
Furthermore, some miners sell-as-they-mine so you're always going to get at least part of the trickle of freshly mined coins going into exchanges no matter what difficulty does.

I thought difficulty automatically adjusts to ensure the same rate of coins released. So more miners means higher difficulty. I would think that even if price remains constant, you will still see an increase in difficulty so long as each miner believes he will mine more money than the cost of electricity? I guess a higher price could attract more miners, but I kind of think that new miners are added as more people with idle cards laying around learn how easy it is to mine. I guess a really high price could drive people to go out and buy more video cards, but I assume that time has passed. So now it's just about the random joe blow who runs his own numbers and decides whether to jump on the bandwagon based on the cost of electricity.

I still don't understand why anyone would continue to always provide a trickle of freshly mined coins if the cost for that person is higher in electricity than what the resulting coins are worth. But is it possible that the difficulty somehow can prevent this from happening, where you'd always get at least one miner to create new coins?
 

nwo

Platinum Member
Jun 21, 2005
2,309
0
71
The way I see it, is there has to be some effect when a crypto currency crosses over the point where it costs more electricity to mine than the results of that mining, due to difficulty increases. Surely people will change their ways at that point? I'm not sure I understand why someone would continue mining if it takes more electricity than that coin is worth? But I was not involved with bitcoin to see how everyone behaved when that happened to bitcoin, at least I assume that it did, where it was no longer profitable to mine bitcoin on GPUs because of the electricity cost and difficulty? Shouldn't litecoin follow down the same path? Even so, I would think people still might behave a little differently than before, because there are so many alt coins too.
The first wave of scrypt/LTC ASICs are not going to be anywhere as powerful efficient as Bitcoin ASICs. The performance gap is not going to be anywhere near what it is now when you compare BTC ASIC to BTC GPU mining. Which means scrypt GPU mining will still be profitable for a while, even if LTC prices stay extremely low as they are now, but I expect them to start rising rapidly within the next couple of months.

Also, some people have cheap/free electricity which can still make BTC GPU mining profitable. However, it is not efficient since LTC is a much better option at the moment.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
So, correct me if I am wrong, but if you are using electricity to heat up your house in the winter, does it not mean that mining costs nothing extra in terms of electricity, because every watt that goes to mining is 1 watt less that your electric heater will use? (assuming automatic thermostat reaching a fixed temperature)
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
I thought difficulty automatically adjusts to ensure the same rate of coins released. So more miners means higher difficulty. I would think that even if price remains constant, you will still see an increase in difficulty so long as each miner believes he will mine more money than the cost of electricity? I guess a higher price could attract more miners, but I kind of think that new miners are added as more people with idle cards laying around learn how easy it is to mine. I guess a really high price could drive people to go out and buy more video cards, but I assume that time has passed. So now it's just about the random joe blow who runs his own numbers and decides whether to jump on the bandwagon based on the cost of electricity.

I still don't understand why anyone would continue to always provide a trickle of freshly mined coins if the cost for that person is higher in electricity than what the resulting coins are worth. But is it possible that the difficulty somehow can prevent this from happening, where you'd always get at least one miner to create new coins?

Correct. The rate of coin production is constant because difficulty will go up or down to counter any movement in hashrate.

And yes even if price stays flat, difficulty will keep going up until a "last man standing" situation where the only places in the world that can profitably mine are ASIC data centers in Iceland (cold, cheap geothermal power). And even when we reach that stage, some miners have free (subsidized, really) electricity, some people are just doing it for fun and don't mind paying for it, some people are bad at math, and some people are True Believers who will never stop mining because they are convinced that bitcoin will become the world reserve currency. I remember reading bitcoin miner articles where they interviewed this guy who ran some rigs in his garage even when it was literally costing him more money each month than the bitcoins were worth, because he thought bitcoin was going to be "the future" and thus worth vastly more than the $10-15 it was worth back then. (I hope he held onto them. Better yet, if he sold off his rigs and put the proceeds into buying-and-holding coins, as that's way more efficient for True Believers who think coin prices will go to the moon.)

If prices rise, you are right, it encourages marginal producers to step into the game. And you are right that if prices fall enough, it will drive marginal producers out of the game. Price drives litecoin difficulty in the short run, NOT the other way around. However, in the long run, difficulty also drives price, because if enough miners give up, difficulty might go down and thus profitability may go up and some ex-miners may start mining again.

My trickle comment was about how there are so many coins already mined that the daily trickle of freshly mined coins is rounding error and thus even if miners collectively refused to release coins onto the exchanges at all, it wouldn't matter in the short run. In the long run if miners kept hoarding all the newly minted coins, it would eventually impact the market as the reduced supply would tend to push prices up all else equal. But even so, there are so many coins already in existence that a whale (perhaps someone who bought them when they were worth pennies) could crash the markets by unloading too many of them in a short period of time.

So, correct me if I am wrong, but if you are using electricity to heat up your house in the winter, does it not mean that mining costs nothing extra in terms of electricity, because every watt that goes to mining is 1 watt less that your electric heater will use? (assuming automatic thermostat reaching a fixed temperature)

It depends. If you happen to be in a jurisdiction with cheap electricity and no tiering, lucky you. Not everyone is so fortunate. Some people live in the other hemisphere where it's summer. And no matter where you live, winter doesn't last forever. For those with electric AND gas, using a rig as a space heater is usually far less efficient than using a gas heater for many jurisdictions, because gas is cheap and highly effective for heating, and gas is also typically untiered or barely tiered. (Electricity in many jurisdictions is tiered, where it starts off cheap but the more you use, the more punishing the price.)
 
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pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
22
81
A thought crossed my mind. Perhaps someone hooked up their mining rig to some ridiculously expensive solar power assembly...

Well, I've done that - I have three rigs of 7970's and 7950's - and I have a 6.2kW solar array.
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
I wouldn't call a person with direct access to AMD's official bios signing hash as well as schematics of Bulldozer and Phenom as "Some Random Dude"........

Hold on a second. There are a ton of modified BIOS's out there, e.g., Robnitro. There are others as well. What exactly does one need in order to modify the memory stepping tables on this firmware?
 

taq8ojh

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
1,296
1
81
I wouldn't call a person with direct access to AMD's official bios signing hash as well as schematics of Bulldozer and Phenom as "Some Random Dude"........
Your posts never stop to amaze me. I've been watching you for some time, and am starting to think you take too much mushrooms or whatever it is.
You sure are a seer or something.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
It depends. If you happen to be in a jurisdiction with cheap electricity and no tiering, lucky you. Not everyone is so fortunate. Some people live in the other hemisphere where it's summer. And no matter where you live, winter doesn't last forever. For those with electric AND gas, using a rig as a space heater is usually far less efficient than using a gas heater for many jurisdictions, because gas is cheap and highly effective for heating, and gas is also typically untiered or barely tiered. (Electricity in many jurisdictions is tiered, where it starts off cheap but the more you use, the more punishing the price.)

Of course winter doesn't last forever and that often times gas heating might be cheaper, but that is irrelevant to what I actually said.

If my apartment has only an electric heater, and its currently winter, and I have a thermostat, and mining doesn't exceed the the power consumption of the heating I already do, than it costs me nothing extra to mine as every 1 kwh spent mining also produces waste heat equal to how much heating a dedicated heater would have produced with that much electricity.
 
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wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
Of course winter doesn't last forever and that often times gas heating might be cheaper, but that is irrelevant to what I actually said.

If my apartment has only an electric heater, and its currently winter, and I have a thermostat, and mining doesn't exceed the the power consumption of the heating I already do, than it costs me nothing extra to mine as every 1 kwh spent mining also produces waste heat equal to how much heating a dedicated heater would have produced with that much electricity.

Exactly, I think he didn't answer your question (intentionally or not). For your question I don't know if it's as efficient as a heater (probably not) but it should be heating while mining therefore it's not just going to waste as you can utilize that heat.
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
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ICs are extremely efficient in turning electricity into heat, it will be hard to find a home heater that matches its efficiency.

I can really feel my entire room being very warm, and its a huge room, with just 2 x R290 mining. Walking in its very obvious its an awesome heater.. great for winter, sadly, here, its freaken 45C today outside. Ridiculous.

ps. In some parts of the globe, its pretty much "winter" year round. For that, its insanity not to have GPUs mining away instead of having costly heaters.
 
May 13, 2009
12,333
612
126
ICs are extremely efficient in turning electricity into heat, it will be hard to find a home heater that matches its efficiency.

I can really feel my entire room being very warm, and its a huge room, with just 2 x R290 mining. Walking in its very obvious its an awesome heater.. great for winter, sadly, here, its freaken 45C today outside. Ridiculous.

ps. In some parts of the globe, its pretty much "winter" year round. For that, its insanity not to have GPUs mining away instead of having costly heaters.

Just fyi all electric heat is 100% efficient.
 

Atreidin

Senior member
Mar 31, 2011
464
27
86
Electric heating is horribly inefficient compared to other options. You have to consider how it is produced and delivered to you. There are losses in generation and distribution. Heating your house with gas or another option is more efficient overall, and except perhaps in some weird corner cases, will be much cheaper.
 
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