Cryptocoin Mining?

Page 40 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Is there a need to use 64-bit OS?

Will Windows XP work fine for dual 6950s? I investigated my professor's lab some more and the ethernet ports work no problem. Excellent.

It's a dual core Opteron rig with only 2gb RAM, so I'd probably stay on XP, but if I need I have a Vista license I'm not using right now (yuck). If XP is ok, I'll just hop onto Newegg and buy my 6950s later tonight.

I've never messed with heavy GPUs (I'm only on a 4850 now and I had a 7800GT before), but I'm probably gonna have to get some 80mm fans for my old case which has 0 working case fans right now. The CPU will be cooled by a 120mm cooler thankfully.


Are you buying 2GB 6950's? I think that might be a problem. 32 bit XP has a 4GB limit, 2 2GB cards leaves nothing for system memory. You could probably get away with 2 1GB 6950's and 2GB system memory, though. But you'll have to decide if that is worth the trade off if you intend to keep the cards for gaming use later or not.
 
Feb 19, 2001
20,158
20
81
Are you buying 2GB 6950's? I think that might be a problem. 32 bit XP has a 4GB limit, 2 2GB cards leaves nothing for system memory. You could probably get away with 2 1GB 6950's and 2GB system memory, though. But you'll have to decide if that is worth the trade off if you intend to keep the cards for gaming use later or not.

Does video memory become limited in the same way system memory does? Would that really hit my bitcoin mining stats? I don't have xfire or SLI so I'm gonna run them as separate cards on my old system.

In fact several limitations stand out including the fact that I have only PCI-e 1.0. Not sure if that would hurt bitcoin mining either.

Anyhow, if this doesn't work out I can always use the two cards on my main rig which is an i7 930 + 6GB that currently only has a 4850.
 

ikachu

Senior member
Jan 19, 2011
274
2
81
Pretty good article about 32-bit and memory limitations:
http://blogs.technet.com/b/markrussinovich/archive/2008/07/21/3092070.aspx

The consumption of memory addresses below 4GB can be drastic on high-end gaming systems with large video cards. For example, I purchased one from a boutique gaming rig company that came with 4GB of RAM and two 1GB video cards. I hadn't specified the OS version and assumed that they'd put 64-bit Vista on it, but it came with the 32-bit version and as a result only 2.2GB of the memory was accessible by Windows. You can see a giant memory hole from 8FEF0000 to FFFFFFFF in this Meminfo output from the system after I installed 64-bit Windows:
 

hdfxst

Senior member
May 13, 2009
851
3
81
Does video memory become limited in the same way system memory does? Would that really hit my bitcoin mining stats? I don't have xfire or SLI so I'm gonna run them as separate cards on my old system.

In fact several limitations stand out including the fact that I have only PCI-e 1.0. Not sure if that would hurt bitcoin mining either.

Anyhow, if this doesn't work out I can always use the two cards on my main rig which is an i7 930 + 6GB that currently only has a 4850.

For bitcoin the memory wont matter in fact i read that a card with bad memory will still run bitcoin.Running your card in a x16 slot or x1 slot makes no difference so i dont think pci-e 1.0 will matter
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Does video memory become limited in the same way system memory does? Would that really hit my bitcoin mining stats?.

No, not for the reason you state. The problem is that 32 bit OS has a 4GB address space, and your video card's memory takes away from that address space. With 2 2GB cards, you have 0GB left for the OS to use for regular system memory, thus you might have some problems. If they were 2 1GB cards, you would still have 2GB left to use as regular system RAM address space.

None of these problems exist if you use 64bit windows 7 (or 64 bit vista)
 

Spike

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2001
6,770
1
81
Hmmm, my 5870 is being throttled due to high temps so it's staying around 600mhz core and getting only 240-250Mh. I'll have to play with cooling that case a little better...

Another strange thing is my main pc. I installed the miner program just for the heck of it and at stock speeds my 6970 is only seeing around 360-370 Mh... only 10-20 more than my 5870 got when at full speed. Why such a small difference? I thought it would be more for some reason...
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,240
2
76
the 5 series are better at bitcoin mining

a stock 6950 at -v 0w128 does about 320 on avg
 

Spike

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2001
6,770
1
81
the 5 series are better at bitcoin mining

a stock 6950 at -v 0w128 does about 320 on avg

Thanks for the info, guess I'll just leave my 5870 going then. Now I just need some better cooling so it stays at full speed...
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
Thanks for the info, guess I'll just leave my 5870 going then. Now I just need some better cooling so it stays at full speed...

I had to manually set the fans on my 5850s to 65% in order to keep the cards between 80-88c.

Although it is finally starting to get warm here in Socal, so we will see how today goes...
 

dust

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2008
1,339
2
71
I had to manually set the fans on my 5850s to 65% in order to keep the cards between 80-88c.

Although it is finally starting to get warm here in Socal, so we will see how today goes...

That's still too hot for my taste. You should try lowering the voltage and the memory clock. I'm down to 1.0V from 1.1 stock and 725 memory, as opposed to 1250 stock. Fan is at 70% steady and I lowered the temps from 68-69C to 60-61.

I just have to remember to reload the stock voltage profile when I use the system for other stuff, otherwise it hangs.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
I'm not really having any problems with my 5870. I have it set to... I believe 55% fan speed and I'm around 73-74C with it being upstairs (definitely hotter up there). My 6950 runs at about 68C at 50% fan speed. My case may have better cooling or it could be that mine is a blower style, which is louder, but I think tends to be cooler given it pumps the hot air outside. Although, I'm not sure if it pushes as much air, which may not make it cooler than a dual/tri-fan setup.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
I'm not really having any problems with my 5870. I have it set to... I believe 55% fan speed and I'm around 73-74C with it being upstairs (definitely hotter up there). My 6950 runs at about 68C at 50% fan speed. My case may have better cooling or it could be that mine is a blower style, which is louder, but I think tends to be cooler given it pumps the hot air outside. Although, I'm not sure if it pushes as much air, which may not make it cooler than a dual/tri-fan setup.


Just for comparrison to the other cards here, my Vapor-X 5870 @ 875MHz core / 1250MHz (5.0GHz) memory and the fan set to auto stays right around 76C.
 

v8envy

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2002
2,720
0
0
I rigged up a bracket to have a 120mm fan blow cool outside air directly over my 5830s and the temperatures dropped quite a bit. Stock they wanted to run at around 90C with factory fan profiles.

Now overclocked to 900 core, 335 memory and undervolted to 1.060 with fans at 65% they hover around 59 to 64C, depending on how hot it gets in the house. I'm rigging up a side panel made of a box fan and furnace air filter instead. I think that may drop the temperatures to mid to low 50s at low card fan speeds. At that point I'll see if I can drop the voltage some more.
 
Feb 19, 2001
20,158
20
81
thanks for the explanation. I understood the 4gb limit from 32-bit before, but I thought RAM and video RAM were in separate pools, but it seems that they are all in the same 4gb limit. So If I go with my old XP rig I'll look at 1gb cards, but even then I hear 1gb cards aren't too bad. Either way when that system goes out the window, dual 6950s will be a HUGE upgrade on my main rig from my single 4850... whether its 1gb or 2gb.
 

v8envy

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2002
2,720
0
0
So, in short... adding hardware tends to help you "keep up with the Jones" and also keep your own level of BTC reward as the difficulty increases, but overall $/hour seems to be getting worse compared to $ invested. The worst thing as an investor is to see your ROI go down (especially considering ROI / time).

If you look at rewards at an all time high that is indeed the picture.

Now look at it from my perspective. I started when BTC was valued at about $8 per, and difficulty was half of what it is right now. So for me little has changed in terms of return/month (still estimated $300 monthly return after power cost on a $206 hardware investment). Gox being hacked and the resulting implosion in BTC value is an anomaly, if we discard that and look at the trading range of BTC at difficulty of 870k, I'm actually UP in income over difficulty in the mid 400s and $8/btc. Sure, at 560k difficulty and $32/coin I was looking $1000 profit a month on a $206 hardware investment but it's clearly obvious to all onlookers why that could not and would not last.

Remember this is a pyramid scheme. The more hardware gets added the more worthwhile it seems to simply buy btc instead of mining them. People buy, prices go up, and we begin a new cycle of hardware additions as people doing math at the other end of the pendulum swing decided to jump in with both feet. This continues until there's no more fresh blood to drive the cycle.
 

Spike

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2001
6,770
1
81
How do I read the stats on mining.bitcoin.cz? Also, in my account one of my miners shows 1 block found and the other 0. What does that actually mean?
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
How do I read the stats on mining.bitcoin.cz? Also, in my account one of my miners shows 1 block found and the other 0. What does that actually mean?

Confirmed reward is what you could get right now, if your send threshold was low enough to trigger a send.

Unconfirmed reward is what you will get in time, even if you stop mining right now, except it may possibly reduced because occasionally blocks prove to be invalid. Blocks require 100 confirmations before becoming confirmed.

Estimated reward refers to the current block being worked on and once that block is done will be moved into the unconfirmed reward total.


If you found 1 block, it means your miner actually generated a 50 coin block (subject to confirmation). If you were solo mining, you would have 50 coins from that, however since you are pool mining the 50 coins is divided among everyone who did work towards that block and you only get a share of it. It doesn't really matter whether you find the block or if anyone else in the pool finds it, your reward is the same, but the statistic is there for the curious.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Now look at it from my perspective. I started when BTC was valued at about $8 per, and difficulty was half of what it is right now. So for me little has changed in terms of return/month (still estimated $300 monthly return after power cost on a $206 hardware investment). Gox being hacked and the resulting implosion in BTC value is an anomaly, if we discard that and look at the trading range of BTC at difficulty of 870k, I'm actually UP in income over difficulty in the mid 400s and $8/btc. Sure, at 560k difficulty and $32/coin I was looking $1000 profit a month on a $206 hardware investment but it's clearly obvious to all onlookers why that could not and would not last.

I think you just affirmed what I said more than anything. Ignoring fluctuation (positive or negative) in the market, bitcoin mining will provide less of a return as it becomes more popular. Popularity affects it in two ways: difficulty and shares. If bitcoins are being provided at too fast of a rate, the proverbial carrot is dangled further from reach (difficulty goes up). As more people get into mining or existing miners beef up their hash rate, existing miners will process fewer shares (as a percentage).

The only way to combat both issues is to simply invest in more hardware. I'm going to preface this with an important thing... I'm not an investor... I don't do day-trading or anything of the sort. However, I'm trying to look at this in the most logical way possible. But let's take a peek at an analogy:

You own a restaurant. You decide to open another restaurant in a neighboring city. The typical business decision is to open the new restaurant to provide revenue on top of what your current establishment already provides. The bitcoin mining "philosophy" is to open another restaurant to attempt to alleviate a loss in business that your current restaurant is suffering from.

While the analogy does not suggest that your second business will not provide an increase in revenue, it is suggesting that it is based on a flawed sense of investing. I'm enjoying these analogies... so let's do a movie one. Have you ever seen the movie "The Money Pit" starring Tom Hanks? That's what bitcoin mining is eventually going to become. Not that I'm inferring that it will crash to the ground like the house (hopefully you've seen the movie and I haven't spoiled it ).

To me, investing in more infrastructure to see the same returns is a flawed investment strategy.

I've heard a lot of talk about how if people eventually quit, the difficulty will drop. The only problem I see there is that with a drop in miners, you will also see a drop in interest overall in bitcoins. Hell, the only reason I'm doing this is I can pretty much milk people's greed by selling them silly bitcoins that in essence... I'm paying pennies on the dollar for. It kind of makes me feel like a Nigerian scammer in a way. :hmm:

Remember this is a pyramid scheme. The more hardware gets added the more worthwhile it seems to simply buy btc instead of mining them. People buy, prices go up, and we begin a new cycle of hardware additions as people doing math at the other end of the pendulum swing decided to jump in with both feet. This continues until there's no more fresh blood to drive the cycle.

You know... I've never been a fan of calling this a pyramid scheme. I think people just see that the early you "get into it", the more money you could have made. This does not a pyramid scheme make. The biggest fault is that people ignore the fact that a pyramid scheme requires a concept of referrals or "underlings" and generating extra revenue through cuts from said underling's work.

I think the monetary value assigned to bitcoins is probably one of the biggest problems I have with the currency as a whole. Unlike other investments such as stocks, $/BTC is purely based on how much someone is willing to pay for one. This is what makes the market potentially volatile... what is going to make people stop putting high value into bitcoins?

The problem this provides is that how do you know when to honestly buy bitcoins? The only thing I can see is if you notice a trend where it tends to simply oscillate. You attempt to buy bitcoins for as low as possible, and hope that the trend continues so you can sell high. The money then is pumped into the next dip to attempt to perform the same reaping. I only see this working as long as people that cannot read charts are willing to buy bitcoins.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
Popularity affects it in two ways: difficulty and shares. If bitcoins are being provided at too fast of a rate, the proverbial carrot is dangled further from reach (difficulty goes up). As more people get into mining or existing miners beef up their hash rate, existing miners will process fewer shares (as a percentage).
.

More people getting into mining and you getting fewer shares will not reduce your returns, not directly anyway.

Why not?

Lets take Alpha Pool. Currently you have 100mhash. The total pool is 1000mhash. You typically find 1 block every 2 hours. You will have aprox 10% of the shares with your 10% of the hash power, so you tend to get 5 BTC/2 hours.

The next day, the pool members all expand their hardware, except you. Total pool is now 2000Mhash/s, while you are still only providing 100MHash of that. However, with double the hash power the pool now solves 1 block every hour, instead of 1 every 2. While your share has gone down to 5%, or 2.5 BTC per block, you are still getting 5 BTC/2 hours because your pool is solving twice as many.


Difficulty increase will reduce your returns, absolutely. However, BTC value has historically followed difficulty increases fairly closely. If things get too far apart and mining becomes unprofitable the system will self-correct because people will quit mining. I am not saying "you will always get exactly $X per day for 1ghash", but I do think mining will remaining profitable at some level unless the entire bitcoin economy collapses.

I love these charts:
http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=7427.0
 
Last edited:

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,714
1,069
136
v8 you really need to stop calling it a pyramid scheme. pyramid requires hierarchy and that members give money to someone higher up while bringing in someone new to be below. technically it is closer to ponzi scheme. at least be accurate.

there are other scams where the victim/sucker is forced to buy product to sell, and then finds the only way to pay off the debt is to sell more product. or schemes like the panama canal construction workers who were charged for equipment/housing/food to keep them perpetually in debt so they couldnt quit working.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |