Cryptocoin Mining?

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wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
I believe it is worth it, but it's a toss up on which coin will be "up" in value when you sell. Perhaps Doge is fine, it's been in the top 1/3 consistently.

Try some values here. I took a guess that it's about 350w and if so it's about $6-7/day at current values. They fluctuate a lot.

A 7970 optimized should be 700+ khash but I don't know about your PC's total wattage.
http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurre...ost=0.1500&sha256Check=false&scryptCheck=true

The doge exchange rate is pretty interesting too.
https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/132

Whichever coin you try, check the history of it too.
 

taq8ojh

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
1,296
1
81
With a single 7970 what should I start mining right now? Is it even worth it?
I would suggest going the Middlecoin route. It's easy to setup, doesn't require any knowledge of the currencies, and saves you time messing around playing lottery with various coins.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
With a single 7970 what should I start mining right now? Is it even worth it?

Enter your input numbers here:

http://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/calculator

If you are in a jurisdiction with tiered rates, you need to figure out the marginal cost of electricity you will use from mining. For instance if you are on tier 1 but will go up to tier 2 due to mining, then your cost of electricity for mining is whatever your tier 2 rate is. (Tiering is a crude incentive mechanism to get people to conserve energy for environmental reasons as well as cost reasons because it's cheaper to conserve energy than it is to build brand new electrical plants and transmission lines.)

If you already have everything you need for mining (a video card and CPU, mobo, RAM, PSU, etc., then those are sunk costs, so you can put "0" for "hardware price."

Per the "overview," an overclocked 7970 can generate about 700 kH/s at 250 watts at the wall with a typical PSU. Add another 50-100 watts to that if you have a typical CPU, mobo, RAM, HDD, optical drive, case fans, peripherals (keyboard, mouse, etc.).

Pool fee you can probably leave at 2% because even if you mine at a 0% fee pool and don't donate anything, you will get some stale shares and other such downtime.

If you are having a hard time guessing what to input for "difficulty increment" in the calculator linked to above, look at http://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/difficulty and enter something you think is reasonable based on that. Difficulty has increased by 60+ and 80+ percent in Nov and Dec 2013, and January looks like it might be slower but is already up over 20% with half the month to go so it's on pace for more than 40% difficulty increase. For reference, a 5% "difficulty increment" translates to (1.05)^8-1 = 47.7% monthly increase in difficulty which seems about right to me eyeballing recent trends and considering January looks like it's going to increase in difficulty somewhat slower than Nov-Dec.

Click on your preferred currency which is probably USD (US Dollars).

Click on on the "Months" button where it says "Group by." That gives you the cumulative profit/loss you can expect given your inputs, by month.

There, you are done. This is a good first approximation of profitability. You can potentially make more or less depending on whether prices per coin rise or fall, among other things, and arbitraging altcoins may give you more or less profit as well depending on how well the altcoin market does.

Mining arbitrage (where it's more profitable to mine something instead of LTC) is difficult because opportunities are usually very fleeting due to intense competition. The more hashpower attempting to arbitrage, the faster the arbitrage opportunities disappear which is why coinhopper pools aren't as profitable now as they used to be when they were smaller, especially when you factor in their higher pool fees and higher stales/rejected shares. Even disregarding fees and stales, it's possible for such pools to make less than litecoin mining if the pool algorithm messes up and the pool winds up mining something it THOUGHT was going to be more profitable but turned out to be less profitable because prices changed faster than the pool could adapt. I did a test recently and middlecoin was basically tied with mining at a 0% fee litecoin pool with 1% stales on that test day. The next day it was actually slightly less profitable to mine at middlecoin, don't know if it was just bad luck or what. Altcoin mining has a large hashrate associated with it, so if people mine altcoins it benefits litecoin miners, too, by reducing litecoin difficulty. So litecoin miners get a share of the profits from altcoin mining. Anyway, if you think you can beat LTC mining by X% in the long run, even after higher fees and stales, then give yourself X% more kH/s instead of 700 kH/s for your hashrate, in the calculator above.
 
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wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
I would suggest going the Middlecoin route. It's easy to setup, doesn't require any knowledge of the currencies, and saves you time messing around playing lottery with various coins.

What's their payout now? Does anyone have numbers (hashes to bitcoins)?
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
Enter your input numbers here:

http://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/calculator

If you already have everything you need for mining (a video card and CPU, mobo, RAM, PSU, etc., then those are sunk costs, so you can put "0" for "hardware price."

Per the "overview," an overclocked 7970 can generate about 700 kH/s at 250 watts at the wall with a typical PSU. Add another 50-100 watts to that if you have a typical CPU, mobo, RAM, HDD, optical drive, case fans, peripherals (keyboard, mouse, etc.).

If you are having a hard time guessing what to input for "difficulty increment" in the calculator linked to above, look at http://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/difficulty and enter something you think is reasonable based on that. Difficulty has increased by 60+ and 80+ in Nov and Dec 2013, January looks like it might be slower but is already up over 20% with half the month to go. For reference, a 5% "difficulty increment" translates to (1.05)^8-1 = 47.7% monthly increase in difficulty which seems about right to me eyeballing recent trends and considering January looks like it's going to increase in difficulty somewhat slower than Nov-Dec.

Click on on the "Months" button where it says "Group by." That gives you the cumulative profit/loss you can expect given your inputs, by month.

You can potentially make more or less depending on whether prices per coin rise or fall, among other things, but this is a good first approximation of whether it would be worth it for you to mine.
:thumbsup:

There you go. Actually one thing, I don't think I'd mine litecoin now. Either alt coins which are way more profitable and sell daily, or maybe middlecoin, or alt-coins which you believe will succeed and hold and see.
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
:thumbsup:

There you go. Actually one thing, I don't think I'd mine litecoin now. Either alt coins which are way more profitable and sell daily, or maybe middlecoin, or alt-coins which you believe will succeed and hold and see.

Currently mining Doge. I get about .8 LTC a day with a 2.2m/h setup. That's when they aren't going down, losing connection with the stratum/pool (which is 95% of failures).
 

taq8ojh

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
1,296
1
81
What's their payout now? Does anyone have numbers (hashes to bitcoins)?
I have no idea. All I know the total fees are very tiny bit over 3%, and the owner apparently knows his stuff well. He said the pool was fulltime job for him, so I guess he stares at graphs and digs in exchange sites all day long.

Nice coloured graph here.

I like how you don't need to care about anything. Sure if you know all the stuff yourself and don't mind wasting lots of time on it, you can possibly get higher profit, but most people are not like that. I think the luxury of simplicity and saved time is well worth the negatives.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
146
106
www.neftastic.com
In one dogecoin pool there's 8 members from 53 MHash/s up to 93 MH/s each! There are some coin farms out there.

Back in November, the ROI on the cards was payoff in about 2 to 3 weeks if I remember right. Plus people with "bitcoin money" had plenty to throw at growing farms by 5-10 cards at a time.
 

bob32768

Member
Feb 7, 2013
41
0
76
I have no idea. All I know the total fees are very tiny bit over 3%, and the owner apparently knows his stuff well. He said the pool was fulltime job for him, so I guess he stares at graphs and digs in exchange sites all day long.

I've wondered if the flat BTC balance at times is because he's deliberately waiting for values to fluctuate before exchanging.

At 3% fees, he's getting 3-6 BTC per day. Not a bad racket.
 

taq8ojh

Golden Member
Mar 2, 2013
1,296
1
81
Yeah he definitely waits sometimes apparently for better exchange rates or something. For the amount of work put in to get the pool going, the knowledge, and ease of use for the users, I think what he makes is well deserved.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,935
2,728
136
dogepool.pw is in a state of epic fail. Over 24 hours and no blocks found, and their last one was an orphaned one too. Even small pools with 100 MH/s found 1 block at least. Might they be forked?
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
16
81
There are no ASICs out currently or even being tested. The jump in LTC or other scrypt based coins are solely from miners moving around to the most profitable coins. I'm thinking ASICs might start trickling out 6 months from now at the earliest.

One vendor has recently closed pre-orders and has taken deposits on 25 MH/s. They are quoting Q3/4 delivery dates for mining machines. I was tempted to pre-order a couple of these at $10k each but I bailed at the last minute. They wanted a 20% up-front non-refundable deposit, and they couldn't even give a ballpark idea of die size, gate or core count, or number of ASICs per mining unit. To me that suggested that the ASIC design was nowhere near done; and potentially might not have progressed beyond FPGA proof-of-concept.

Basically, I'd have to be basing my purchase on getting the machines sometime around Christmas. That's too long, anything could happen in the crypto scene by then.
 

wand3r3r

Diamond Member
May 16, 2008
3,180
0
0
One vendor has recently closed pre-orders and has taken deposits on 25 MH/s. They are quoting Q3/4 delivery dates for mining machines. I was tempted to pre-order a couple of these at $10k each but I bailed at the last minute. They wanted a 20% up-front non-refundable deposit, and they couldn't even give a ballpark idea of die size, gate or core count, or number of ASICs per mining unit. To me that suggested that the ASIC design was nowhere near done; and potentially might not have progressed beyond FPGA proof-of-concept.

Basically, I'd have to be basing my purchase on getting the machines sometime around Christmas. That's too long, anything could happen in the crypto scene by then.

True, and on top of it all, $10k would go pretty far with 290's and you could mine for a year. I guess electricity should be cheap with them, but still almost a year of mining with such uncertainty is huge.
 

f1sherman

Platinum Member
Apr 5, 2011
2,243
1
0
That is extremely risky proposition IMHO

DOA is crucial, hard forks may be introduced to fight ASCIS, new hashing algorithms,
new NV/AMD products are a mystery, as well as cryptocoin market as whole
 

xodusgenesis

Member
Oct 14, 2013
46
0
0
The biggest lesson I've learned so far is never pre-order anything if you can't get it within a week cause difficulty/price/politics, etc will change. The only thing I've bought is a 290x that came in yesterday. My 7970 earned $300 from mid-Dec to now so if everything goes belly up at least I'll have bought a 290x for half off. I'm mining with both right now so I should be able to recoup the 290x within a month.
 

chimaxi83

Diamond Member
May 18, 2003
5,457
62
101
dogepool.pw is in a state of epic fail. Over 24 hours and no blocks found, and their last one was an orphaned one too. Even small pools with 100 MH/s found 1 block at least. Might they be forked?

coye.dedicatedpool.com is working fine, though confirmations on the whole network are taking forever.
 

njdevilsfan87

Platinum Member
Apr 19, 2007
2,333
253
126
Sounds like an incredible deal at the moment, but if they are going to be shipping them in Q3 or Q4, who knows what will happen by then...

That actually is a good deal considering it's on par with high end GPUs. ASICs may not make difficulty rise as quickly as before, but they will make building new GPU mining rigs completely obsolete. There will be no point when you can buy a 5 MH/s ASIC miner for $3000, when that's how much it will cost you to build a 5 MH/s GPU farm with cases, fans, PSUs, motherboards, etc.

But at least those of us with small GPU farms should still get some life out of them after ASICs have hit the market. Due to memory requirements, the rate at which ASICs can advance is going to be very limited compared to BTC ASICs.
 

slashbinslashbash

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,945
8
81
Just as an update/FYI, I have now found some pretty good settings for my PowerColor 7790 (factory clocks: 1030 GPU, 1500 VRAM). I'm getting a little over 245Kh/s with:

--thread-concurrency 8000
--gpu-engine 850
-I 18
-w 128
-g 1

And it's running cooler now (68C instead of 72C at stock speeds). So the "set GPU speed to ~.57 of memory speed" mantra can actually hold true. Funny how I misunderstood this advice before; I guess I was thinking there was no way that underclocking my GPU would help. I was getting ~220Kh/s at the stock 1030MHz clock speeds.

Wish I knew where my Kill-a-watt was, but this thing is supposed to pull ~100W max IIRC. I picked it up on Newegg during Black Friday sales for $90. Would have been $70 if I had mailed in the damn rebate in a timely manner...
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
The real cost of long-term mining is not the cost of the video card or ASIC, but the electricity cost. A $300 video card can eat way more than $300 worth of electricity during its mining career.

I bet at least some companies with the ability to churn out ASICs are going to NOT sell them and instead use them to mine for themselves for a while, THEN start selling them. So just because only 2 (3 now?) companies have taken preorders for Scrypt ASICs doesn't mean only 2-3 companies are making them. It doesn't mean that Scrypt ASICs don't already exist, either. The strength of Scrypt ASICs is that they are extremely power efficient compared to video cards, like 60-84 kH/s for 4-5 watts for the chip itself. Slap a bunch of them on a board along with some VRAM (which eats some more watts) and first-generation Scrypt ASICs are deliver about six times more hash per watt than current video cards. This gets at the biggest cost of long-term mining, which is electricity costs.

That said, I personally don't think Scrypt ASICs are actually mining yet even though the first batches (that we know of) came out over a month ago. It takes at least a couple of months to go from raw chips to finished product. Maybe some stealth ASIC company is already mining scrypt but I doubt it, most ASIC companies were focused on SHA256 last year. Even GridSeed's Scrypt ASIC chips are dual-purpose (mines both SHA256 and Scrypt).
 
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KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
1
81
The real cost of long-term mining is not the cost of the video card or ASIC, but the electricity cost. A $300 video card can eat way more than $300 worth of electricity during its mining career.

Just to put out some numbers:

Assume the mining computer uses 300 watts, you leave it on constantly (24 hrs a day) and your electricity costs 7 cents a KWh. Your computer would cost $183.96 per year in electricity alone, so you could mine constantly for 1.63 years before spending $300.

I'm not sure how much a 7970 could make if mining constantly for one year and eight months, but it may not recoup all $300 in that time based on diminishing returns. It's just pretty crazy that some people have made like $300 in a month using a 7970 way back when before the difficulty increase, and the electricity would have only cost about $15 per month.
 
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