Crysis 2 Tessellation Article

brybir

Senior member
Jun 18, 2009
241
0
0
http://techreport.com/articles.x/21404/1

Interesting article about tessellation issues in Crysis 2 after the DX11 update release. A couple of interesting conclusions:

"Crytek's decision to deploy gratuitous amounts of tessellation in places where it doesn't make sense is frustrating, because they're essentially wasting GPU power—and they're doing so in a high-profile game that we'd hoped would be a killer showcase for the benefits of DirectX 11."

"There is another possible explanation. Let's connect the dots on that one. As you may know, the two major GPU vendors tend to identify the most promising upcoming PC games and partner up with the publishers and developers of those games in various ways, including offering engineering support and striking co-marketing agreements. As a very high-profile title, Crysis 2 has gotten lots of support from Nvidia in various forms. In and of itself, such support is generally a good thing for PC gaming. In fact, we doubt the DX11 patch for this game would even exist without Nvidia's urging. We know for a fact that folks at Nvidia were disappointed about how the initial Crysis 2 release played out, just as many PC gamers were. The trouble comes when, as sometimes happens, the game developer and GPU maker conspire to add a little special sauce to a game in a way that doesn't benefit the larger PC gaming community. There is precedent for this sort of thing in the DX11 era. Both the Unigine Heaven demo and Tom Clancy's HAWX 2 cranked up the polygon counts in questionable ways that seemed to inflate the geometry processing load without providing a proportionate increase in visual quality.

Unnecessary geometric detail slows down all GPUs, of course, but it just so happens to have a much larger effect on DX11-capable AMD Radeons than it does on DX11-capable Nvidia GeForces. The Fermi architecture underlying all DX11-class GeForce GPUs dedicates more attention (and transistors) to achieving high geometry processing throughput than the competing Radeon GPU architectures. We've seen the effect quite clearly in synthetic tessellation benchmarks. Few games have shown a similar effect, simply because they don't push enough polygons to strain the Radeons' geometry processing rates. However, with all of its geometric detail, the DX11 upgraded version of Crysis 2 now manages to push that envelope. The guys at Hardware.fr found that enabling tessellation dropped the frame rates on recent Radeons by 31-38%. The competing GeForces only suffered slowdowns of 17-21%."


Anyways, thought that was interesting.
 

StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
8,443
124
106
We spend hundreds on video cards and games and the Crytek returns us the favor with a game that renders water meshes on areas without water and using a millions of polygons on a wall brick.

Jeebus.
 

tincart

Senior member
Apr 15, 2010
630
1
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How much of the game world is affected by the underground sea? If the conspiracy theory were true and, I would expected it to be added to each and every level with just a small section of visible water to maintain benefit of the doubt.
 
May 13, 2009
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Basically it's an Amd filter. Amd didn't contribute to the dx11 patch. Want the best then buy the best. Otherwise deal with the fact your gpu is going to be subpar in many games.


I don't know what's been happening to you, but my previous impression of you was decent. Now, it seems you are bent on trolling and baiting the AMD camp.

Please stop. What you just posted here is nonsense, and serves nothing more than to troll and bait the AMD camp.

Moderator jvroig
 
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Bryf50

Golden Member
Nov 11, 2006
1,429
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Basically it's an Amd filter. Amd didn't contribute to the dx11 patch. Want the best then buy the best. Otherwise deal with the fact your gpu is going to be subpar in many games.
Yea that doesn't make sense. There's no evidence that Nvidia doesn't have the same issues.

Anyway the only thing that is complainable is the water mesh. Complaining about things being "too detailed" is just another case of some annoying PC gamers who complain about everything. First the complaint was it didn't look good enough now it looks too good.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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Clearly the water mesh needs to be fixed. The other gripes are their opinion. Ones I dont share. Welcome to DX11. Where geometry will be complex even for wood boards. And why AMD will have a scaleable tesselator in their next generation GPUs.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
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Basically it's an Amd filter. Amd didn't contribute to the dx11 patch. Want the best then buy the best. Otherwise deal with the fact your gpu is going to be subpar in many games.


I remember when you used to make non-troll bait posts. :/


As far as this patch is concerned, it was Nvidia sponsored from the sounds of it. It's a shame that, again, Nvidia seems to have pushed to have the competition hampered (and hurt the performance of their own users in doing so). But, as the article states, it's very unlikely the patch would exist at all if it weren't for Nvidia, so I can go either way on this one.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
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The original Crysis is still the best looking game out there. As for Crysis 2, I wouldn't put it past Nvidia to have the patch more optimized for their own cards, but I'd say that's to be expected if they're the ones who paid for it.
 

notty22

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2010
3,375
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Its always been debatable whether image quality enhancements are worth fps. Whether its added textures, AA, AF, tessellation levels, resolution.
AMD users can adjust tessellation levels within driver-to regain fps. If they choose.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
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As far as this patch is concerned, it was Nvidia sponsored from the sounds of it. It's a shame that, again, Nvidia seems to have pushed to have the competition hampered (and hurt the performance of their own users in doing so). But, as the article states, it's very unlikely the patch would exist at all if it weren't for Nvidia, so I can go either way on this one.

I have to agree with you here. I am all for Tessellation and will gladly upgrade to more powerful graphics cards if Tessellation truly improves visuals even despite a 50%+ performance hit. But Crysis 2 is a clear example of Crytek just adding useless Tessellation in way too many places. I'll just leave it at that and hope that future games utilize this feature much more effectively for the sake of this amazing technology. I am not interested in 1 million triangles in a concrete barrier that looks 99.9% identical to the traditional shading method.
 
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Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
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Water? where?




Oh here it is!




Lets use lots of tessellation on a invisible ocean that cant be seen

nvidia user: But but... it hurts my performance during game play, for no reason?
nvidia: the reason is it hurts AMD card users even more!
(17% ouch for us, 21% ouch for them)




No tess:



MAX TESSELATION!:






Because useing insane amounts of triangles on a silly rock, without any visual differnce shown between the 2, makes alot of sense.


I honestly think Nvidia payed Crytek to make Crysis2 run better on their cards, and to do it, they cranked up tessellation, without any need too do so.
 
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tincart

Senior member
Apr 15, 2010
630
1
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Honestly the second rock does look more realistic.

It appears to be ever so slightly smoother.

I would love to see someone take some screen shots of this same scene with the AMD Tess slider at various settings to see where the setting starts impacting the visuals.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
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Are you guys sure the invisible ocean affects performance? AMD and Nvidia have tried not to render hidden details for years.

In fact, that's the purpose of the z-buffer, to determine what objects not to render because they're behind other objects.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
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Are you guys sure the invisible ocean affects performance? AMD and Nvidia have tried not to render hidden details for years.

In fact, that's the purpose of the z-buffer, to determine what objects not to render because they're behind other objects.


I could be completely wrong on this, I'm going on memory of the Dreamcast's Power VR chip, I think modern GPU's employ a similar tactic. Anyway, I thought the GPU does calculate the wireframe/polys but did not apply the textures to objects not in view. So I think some resources are wasted, some aren't. Again, I could be way off on this, hopefully someone knows.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,361
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I could be completely wrong on this, I'm going on memory of the Dreamcast's Power VR chip, I think modern GPU's employ a similar tactic. Anyway, I thought the GPU does calculate the wireframe/polys but did not apply the textures to objects not in view. So I think some resources are wasted, some aren't. Again, I could be way off on this, hopefully someone knows.

Yeap, they calculate the polygons but they dont apply textures or rasterizing the outcome etc.

From the pictures, the Ocean is on low tessellation (fewer triangles) and i dont believe AMD cards have any problems with that.
 

chelhxi

Senior member
Sep 11, 2008
252
2
81
For the love of god, at least proof read your thread title. Tessekkation? I see your l key works in the rest of your thread.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,996
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I’m a little puzzled as to why the concrete barriers are getting such heavy treatment when it basically makes zero difference to them.

Are you guys sure the invisible ocean affects performance? AMD and Nvidia have tried not to render hidden details for years.
If the game is able to display the mesh like that then something must be calculating it. The question is how much of it is rendered, but the point is that the game should be culling all of it before it even hits the GPU.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
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This was discussed ad-nausiem in another thread (techreport weren't the first to bring this up):
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=31991872#post31991872

Conclusion: Nvidia is better then AMD at tessellation right now, accept it and move on - I'm sure the next gen AMD card will have solved this.

So, now we have a 2nd site review it. They didn't come to the conclusion to accept it and move on. Excessive tessellation was their conclusion.

Here's a 3rd article. They think the tessellation is excessive too.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/...ser-look-at-performance-and-tessellation.html

How many more does it take before some people will call it like it is?
 

notty22

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2010
3,375
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There are also numerous articles showing the improvements with the dx11 patch.
No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to install this free patch.
You could easily write a article on past games like Dirt2 where there are numerous reviews showing almost no visual differences from the dx9.exe to the dx11.exe, and its 25% performance hit.
At least there are many visual improvements with the Crysis2 dx11 patch.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/crysis-2-directx-11-performance,2983.html
Crysis 2 Is The Best DirectX 11 Implementation Yet

Unlike many first-generation DirectX 11 titles, which were superficial by nature, Crysis 2 offers a major benefit to running the current-gen API versus what came before.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Why doesn't Tom's report the excessive tessellation levels? The invisible sea? Incompetence or collusion?
 

PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
13
81
There are also numerous articles showing the improvements with the dx11 patch.
No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to install this free patch.
You could easily write a article on past games like Dirt2 where there are numerous reviews showing almost no visual differences from the dx9.exe to the dx11.exe, and its 25% performance hit.
At least there are many visual improvements with the Crysis2 dx11 patch.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/crysis-2-directx-11-performance,2983.html

I don't think anyone is arguing the DX11-patch is useless. The topic regards tessellation which can be (rightfully so) criticized for being excessive.

You don't really need to come running to Nvidias defense on this one. Like I said, no one is claiming that the patch doesn't add anything.
 

notty22

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2010
3,375
0
0
I don't think anyone is arguing the DX11-patch is useless. The topic regards tessellation which can be (rightfully so) criticized for being excessive.

You don't really need to come running to Nvidias defense on this one. Like I said, no one is claiming that the patch doesn't add anything.
I'm not running to Nvidia's defense . I'm reminding people (in this thread) the purpose of the patch, is to make a better looking game and thats what it did.
Remember sites like to generate hits, and AMD cards are inferior at tesselation, so this is a attempt to stoke the fanboy fires. Nvidia is working with developers and AMD is issuing press releases posturing the correct use of tessellation.
 
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