Crysis 2 Tessellation Article

[Keysplayr]

Mosox, you're every post is laden with nothing but inflammatory rhetoric. May I suggest that you cease this behavior immediately. Thanks.

 

[SirPauly]

Well, that's with gathering data from different users. Have a better benchmark?

http://gamegpu.ru/Action-/-FPS-/-TPS/Crysis-2-v-rezhime-DirectX-11-test-GPU.html

Here's another TWIMTBP game tested on one CPU:

Now there's proof enough that it's not about "optimization", "bad AMD drivers", etc. It's about crippling on purpose the competitors' cards by tessellating even hidden surfaces.

Stay classy, Nvidia.

I can understand the Crysis 2 argument to some levels and more care may be needed to see more image quality gains instead of just subtle ones. I feel a lot of the tessellation is subtle in Crysis 2 but still steps forward, even the bricks, that they showcase. The performance hit is strong with DirectX 11 ultra but then again it is the ultra setting and some third party sites like the addition and some don't -- all fair to me -- even HardOCP; it's their view.

But, how on Earth is frame-rate in the 100's intentionally crippling anything? I swear it: It seems some care about is how video cards are perceived for selling them. The title played fantastically on AMD and nVidia hardware.

 

[mosox]

Mosox, you're every post is laden with nothing but inflammatory rhetoric. May I suggest that you cease this behavior immediately. Thanks.

I explained what the TWIMTBP actually means and posted some benchmarks showing Nvidia budget cards being better then AMD top end cards. I said that this doesn't happen in games not coded with the Nvidia team help.

Everything else I said is mild compared to what Demerjian and others people much more important than me wrote on their sites.

AMD has officially exactly the same stance as me on these matters, they're less virulent since they're a big company and I'm just a random guy. Their position about the HAWX 2 tessellation is the same and they issued a press release accusing Nvidia basically of sabotaging their products.

All I said boils down to this:

"Water is another issue. At present, there are multiple game areas where water is only visible in one small area or isn't visible at all. Despite this, the game is still rendering (and tessellating) an invisible ocean underneath the player's feet.

Not all of the DX11 optimizations in Crysis 2 are wasted, but this isn't the first time we've seen DX11 games or benchmarks create false performance dichotomies by ratcheting up tessellation levels in surfaces where insane polygon counts don't actually create a visible quality increase. Both HAWX 2 and Unigine's tessellation benchmark engage in this type of behavior.

Scott notes: "Unnecessary geometric detail slows down all GPUs, of course, but it just so happens to have a much larger effect on DX11-capable AMD Radeons than it does on DX11-capable Nvidia GeForces... The guys at Hardware.fr found that enabling tessellation dropped the frame rates on recent Radeons by 31-38%. The competing GeForces only suffered slowdowns of 17-21%."

There's no reason why Crysis 2 should suffer from some of these issues, particularly since DX11 implementation was delayed to give the team time to get it right. Unigine's 'Extreme' tessellation settings could be written off as a synthetic benchmark's attempt to push one particular aspect of DX11. HAWX 2's use of tessellation was more noteworthy, but was just a single title. Now, with Crysis 2, we again see evidence of DX11 mis-usage that happens to favor Team Green.

http://hothardware.com/News/Indepth...Shows-Highly-Questionable-Tessellation-Usage/


Nvidia was officially involved in the Crysis 2 DX11 patch (containing the above tessellation gimmicks) and issued press statements about this patch.

 

[Lonbjerg]

I explained what the TWIMTBP actually means and posted some benchmarks showing Nvidia budget cards being better then AMD top end cards. I said that this doesn't happen in games not coded with the Nvidia team help.

Everything else I said is mild compared to what Demerjian and others people much more important than me wrote on their sites.

AMD has officially exactly the same stance as me on these matters, they're less virulent since they're a big company and I'm just a random guy. Their position about the HAWX 2 tessellation is the same and they issued a press release accusing Nvidia basically of sabotaging their products.

All I said boils down to this:

"Water is another issue. At present, there are multiple game areas where water is only visible in one small area or isn't visible at all. Despite this, the game is still rendering (and tessellating) an invisible ocean underneath the player's feet.

Not all of the DX11 optimizations in Crysis 2 are wasted, but this isn't the first time we've seen DX11 games or benchmarks create false performance dichotomies by ratcheting up tessellation levels in surfaces where insane polygon counts don't actually create a visible quality increase. Both HAWX 2 and Unigine's tessellation benchmark engage in this type of behavior.

Scott notes: "Unnecessary geometric detail slows down all GPUs, of course, but it just so happens to have a much larger effect on DX11-capable AMD Radeons than it does on DX11-capable Nvidia GeForces... The guys at Hardware.fr found that enabling tessellation dropped the frame rates on recent Radeons by 31-38%. The competing GeForces only suffered slowdowns of 17-21%."

There's no reason why Crysis 2 should suffer from some of these issues, particularly since DX11 implementation was delayed to give the team time to get it right. Unigine's 'Extreme' tessellation settings could be written off as a synthetic benchmark's attempt to push one particular aspect of DX11. HAWX 2's use of tessellation was more noteworthy, but was just a single title. Now, with Crysis 2, we again see evidence of DX11 mis-usage that happens to favor Team Green.

http://hothardware.com/News/Indepth...Shows-Highly-Questionable-Tessellation-Usage/


Nvidia was officially involved in the Crysis 2 DX11 patch (containing the above tessellation gimmicks) and issued press statements about this patch.

You have talked to the devs or have sourcecode that shows bias?

If not, don't bother replying...there is enough people in this thread trying to make tinfoailhats into "facts" with nothing to back the up but a few stills...and certainly no experince with DX11/CryTek.

 

[SirPauly]

I explained what the TWIMTBP actually means .

You have and very vocal. Since, there is no doubt you believe your own words and these facts, well, it should be easy to find developers and publishers to prove your words. I'm asking for one out of countless PC titles that have been created.

 

[Seero]

I explained what the TWIMTBP actually means and posted some benchmarks showing Nvidia budget cards being better then AMD top end cards. I said that this doesn't happen in games not coded with the Nvidia team help.

Everything else I said is mild compared to what Demerjian and others people much more important than me wrote on their sites.

AMD has officially exactly the same stance as me on these matters, they're less virulent since they're a big company and I'm just a random guy. Their position about the HAWX 2 tessellation is the same and they issued a press release accusing Nvidia basically of sabotaging their products.

All I said boils down to this:

"Water is another issue. At present, there are multiple game areas where water is only visible in one small area or isn't visible at all. Despite this, the game is still rendering (and tessellating) an invisible ocean underneath the player's feet.

Not all of the DX11 optimizations in Crysis 2 are wasted, but this isn't the first time we've seen DX11 games or benchmarks create false performance dichotomies by ratcheting up tessellation levels in surfaces where insane polygon counts don't actually create a visible quality increase. Both HAWX 2 and Unigine's tessellation benchmark engage in this type of behavior.

Scott notes: "Unnecessary geometric detail slows down all GPUs, of course, but it just so happens to have a much larger effect on DX11-capable AMD Radeons than it does on DX11-capable Nvidia GeForces... The guys at Hardware.fr found that enabling tessellation dropped the frame rates on recent Radeons by 31-38%. The competing GeForces only suffered slowdowns of 17-21%."

There's no reason why Crysis 2 should suffer from some of these issues, particularly since DX11 implementation was delayed to give the team time to get it right. Unigine's 'Extreme' tessellation settings could be written off as a synthetic benchmark's attempt to push one particular aspect of DX11. HAWX 2's use of tessellation was more noteworthy, but was just a single title. Now, with Crysis 2, we again see evidence of DX11 mis-usage that happens to favor Team Green.

http://hothardware.com/News/Indepth...Shows-Highly-Questionable-Tessellation-Usage/


Nvidia was officially involved in the Crysis 2 DX11 patch (containing the above tessellation gimmicks) and issued press statements about this patch.

I will like to hear your opinion about DE:HR on Nvidia being suck at release, but now work as par with AMD lineup. Then explain why AMD suck at crysis 2 from the start, and still suck now. Will you believe Nvidia's ninja sabotages skills far exceed AMD's over the idea that Nvidia engineers fix the root cause of performance issues via diver and communication will dev but AMD didn't?

 

[3DVagabond]

Yes! Now they are citing Fudzilla, this gets better and better.

You cited X-bit. No difference in my book.

 

[3DVagabond]

I cant play the tessellation with my 460. It appears the 6950 does much better than my 460. I could actually find a 6950 to buy, maybe one that could unlock. That would really be possible.... Is that part of nvidias plan too? I cant see this being logical.

But-

if i where to buy into this thinking then you have to really think it all the way through!

It appears it takes a more powerful card to get the ultra DX11 to play well. There are only 3 gpus that play these settings well, and one of them is from AMD. So if your saying its a ploy to make nvidia look better but only their more expensive cards?????. By this logic its a measured statistic that amd benefits 33% from this as well. So nvidia payed tens of millions of dollars for something that amd gets 33% of the benefits???? Looks like a win win ....but actually i think AMD comes out on top. They payed nothing and still get 33% of the benefits nvidia payed for. This is if you chose to buy into this backwards thinking. So whats the problem.

Do you just not get it? Or, are you just refusing to acknowledge every time the logic is pointed out to you?

This game runs the way it does to have a title that nVidia cards have a huge advantage in. It doesn't matter if they can actually run the game at playable frame rates, as long as they are a lot faster than AMD cards. That way, when reviewers average in the results it gives the nVidia cards a boost over the AMD cards. Add a couple of other titles in to the mix that are designed to run the same way and you have cards that are slower overall looking like they are faster. 560 ti's appearing faster than 6970's, for instance.

 

[Keysplayr]

Do you just not get it? Or, are you just refusing to acknowledge every time the logic is pointed out to you?

This game runs the way it does to have a title that nVidia cards have a huge advantage in. It doesn't matter if they can actually run the game at playable frame rates, as long as they are a lot faster than AMD cards. That way, when reviewers average in the results it gives the nVidia cards a boost over the AMD cards. Add a couple of other titles in to the mix that are designed to run the same way and you have cards that are slower overall looking like they are faster. 560 ti's appearing faster than 6970's, for instance.

This is like an Abbot and Costello routine. "Third base" and were back to classic unfounded conspiracy theory. Vagabond, your post here screams it.
You are 100% whole heartedly convinced that Nvidia sabotaged AMD's performance in this game, without a shred of proof, but just a "feeling", even when Nvidia cards also take a pretty good hit. I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. :sneaky:

 

[3DVagabond]

This is like an Abbot and Costello routine. "Third base" and were back to classic unfounded conspiracy theory. Vagabond, your post here screams it.
You are 100% whole heartedly convinced that Nvidia sabotaged AMD's performance in this game, without a shred of proof, but just a "feeling", even when Nvidia cards also take a pretty good hit. I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. :sneaky:

Again, why so condescending to people? Does it make you feel like you got one over on someone? What makes you believe your opinion matters when you get free stuff from the accused? It's not like you could in any way be considered unbiased.

 

[Jacky60]

Keysplayer
Ok jacky. This is one for the books and for all to remember. Have it your way then, but the next time a dev does something to a game that takes more advantage of something AMD's own hardware runs better, I'd like to think we will hear from you again. Of course we'll have to wait for the day to come where AMD actually does outperform Nvidia given the same parameters, so who knows how long that will be. Until then, I suppose we'll have to deal with hearing whines of foul play and debotchery. How everyone is paid off that doesn't show AMD in a good light, etc. etc.
Whoever benefits from a feature implemented, and only if it's Nvidia, must be on the down and dirty.

I find that an incredible position for a grown adult to take, don't you?


I think you were trying to spell debauchery so if you're going to patronise me at least do it well.

I've used cards from both manufacturers and been a tech journalist and I abhor this sort of behaviour from either manufacturer. Some people choose to represent and defend the rights of consumers, some do not. If AMD did this I'd complain just as loud and wouldn't dream of saying if you don't like it buy AMD. Fortunately they haven't behaved in such a reprehensible manner so I haven't needed to.

 

[Jacky60]

I thought it was common knowledge by now that the TWIMTBP program consists exactly in this: Nvidia "sends" (they can work from a distance) her own programmers to help develop the game. Coding a game is the biggest cost for a game developer so the developers actually make money from it (they spend less) and Nvidia gets to "tweak" the game in order to suit their agenda.

Nvidia's coders (Nvidia employees, paid by Nvidia) are especially used in the graphical effects and multi-GPU support, game settings, etc.

http://www.fudzilla.com/graphics/item/11030-twimtbp-pays-game-developers-with-free-development

All the extra tessellation in this game is done by Nvidia. One doesn't have to be Einstein to connect the dots.

Unfortunately many people are incapable of connecting dots to make a coherent picture. They'd probably want a letter from OJ to confirm it's him in the photo above.

 

[Jacky60]

http://www.behardware.com/articles/...ser-look-at-performance-and-tessellation.html

Here is the conclusion from Belgian Hardware-clearly they aren't in the pockets of Nvidia but I guess it doesn't count because they are Belgian. Chips and mayo anyone?

 

[sontin]

It's quite clear from your posts where you stand vis a vis Nvidia and AMD. I think you were trying to spell debauchery so if you're going to patronise me at least do it well. I've used cards from both manufacturers and been a tech journalist and I abhor this sort of behaviour from either manufacturer. Some people choose to represent and defend the rights of consumers, some do not. If AMD did this I'd complain just as loud and wouldn't dream of saying if you don't like it buy AMD. Fortunately they haven't behaved in such a reprehensible manner so I haven't needed to.

AMD is doing this. But it's the opposite of nVidia: They bag their partners not to use Tessellation at all. Look at games like Shogun 2, Dragon Age 2 and Deux Ex 3. All of them are using Tessellation only for a small part of the game - PN-Tessellation for example. In Dragon Age 2 Bioware uses POM für terrain. It is not funny that even AMD promoted (start at page 25) Tessellation as the best technique to improve the IQ of terrain in games? We have dx11 since two years and the only games which are using Tessellation for terrain are promoted by nVidia - CIV5, HAWX2 and Crysis 2. So, why did AMD changes their mind?

 

[Jacky60]

Mosox, you're every post is laden with nothing but inflammatory rhetoric. May I suggest that you cease this behavior immediately. Thanks.

I'm the boss do as I say!

 

[faseman]

This is like an Abbot and Costello routine. "Third base" and were back to classic unfounded conspiracy theory. Vagabond, your post here screams it.
You are 100% whole heartedly convinced that Nvidia sabotaged AMD's performance in this game, without a shred of proof, but just a "feeling", even when Nvidia cards also take a pretty good hit. I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. :sneaky:

Oh dear. Not a shred of proof, huh? You are paid in goods to advertise products. I'm not surprised you skip over all the evidence posted. How someone can be a moderator and post like you do is pretty laughable.

Hi,

Re: "How someone can be a moderator and post like you do is pretty laughable."

This amounts to a mod callout and is not allowed. Moderator Discussions subforum is the proper place for this, not here publicly in the tech forums.

Moderator jvroig

 

[96Firebird]

You cited X-bit. No difference in my book.

I did?! I either have memory loss, or you're making more things up... D:

 

[Jacky60]

Its possible that Crytek used this level of tessellation on hidden surfaces as a precursor to further improvements in time. If they had a maximum tessellation 'budget' and spent it on the ocean and concrete barriers now they could later patch with much more tessellation elsewhere and simple untessellated barriers would mean zero performance hit. There you go giving em the benefit of the doubt. And I do doubt it.

 

[SirPauly]

Oh dear. Not a shred of proof, huh? You are paid in goods to advertise products. I'm not surprised you skip over all the evidence posted. How someone can be a moderator and post like you do is pretty laughable.

Did you miss this data from a Crysis Modder?

http://maldotex.blogspot.com/2011/09/tesselation-myth-in-crysis-2-el-mito-de.html

Actually did take time to actually investigate.

 

[SirPauly]

Its possible that Crytek used this level of tessellation on hidden surfaces as a precursor to further improvements in time. If they had a maximum tessellation 'budget' and spent it on the ocean and concrete barriers now they could later patch with much more tessellation elsewhere and simple untessellated barriers would mean zero performance hit. There you go giving em the benefit of the doubt. And I do doubt it.

The hit doesn't bother me and the amount of tessellation doesn't bother me as well and do expect nVidia to try to use their developer relations to try to differentiate from their competitors. If your hardware can bring it -- bring it -- nothing wrong with that and fair game, 100 percent.

I think the tessellation over-all is subtle -- just like many DirectX 11 features like Ambient Occlusion. I suppose that is what it is to make things more realistic visually from a subtle point-of-view then in your face and look fake. So, I do understand the point about a desire to see more tessellation and more detail, more balance. But, I like to hear the thinking of Crytech; to see where their mind-sets are.

What is dramatic to me is dynamics in a game, things that move with-in the vision of the gamer. Things are still way too static.

 

[Madcatatlas]

I will like to hear your opinion about DE:HR on Nvidia being suck at release, but now work as par with AMD lineup. Then explain why AMD suck at crysis 2 from the start, and still suck now. Will you believe Nvidia's ninja sabotages skills far exceed AMD's over the idea that Nvidia engineers fix the root cause of performance issues via diver and communication will dev but AMD didn't?

Gsus man, are you reading what you are writing? Have you BOTHERED to read any posts in this topic at all claiming that, and proving that there is WASTED tesselation dropping performance on BOTH Nvidia AND AMD cards?

Are you blind man?

An ocean of invisible tesselation cannot be fixed with AMDs drivers. But lo and behold, there is no hidden hack in DeusEx 2. Thus, it works fine on both graphic producers. I mean, you just said this yourself, yet you pose a question....

Seriously man, lay of the donuts.

 

[Keysplayr]

Again, why so condescending to people? Does it make you feel like you got one over on someone? What makes you believe your opinion matters when you get free stuff from the accused? It's not like you could in any way be considered unbiased.

It isn't. Saying that someone is condescending for showing how ridiculous an argument is, doesn't automatically make it so.

Again, lets not make this personal. Don't worry about how I feel, etc. etc. Don't worry about what makes me believe my opinion matters.
Whether I am biased or not, and I've made it plainly know forever and a month of Sundays now, that I much prefer Nvidia products. And not by just a little. Dude, you should know by now, that during an argument, one person suddenly goes after the other personally (my feelings, My opinion doesn't count, you're condescing, etc. etc.) you've lost. It means you have nothing left and it's a last resort. Can't best the argument, then let me go after his credibility. Well, fine. I'll accept that. It's a natural course of action when backed into a corner. But don't think it goes without a price.

Be well.

Keys

 

[Keysplayr]

Oh dear. Not a shred of proof, huh? You are paid in goods to advertise products. I'm not surprised you skip over all the evidence posted. How someone can be a moderator and post like you do is pretty laughable.

It's easy skipping over things that do not exist. You were wondering how I skipped such damning evidence? What is it that you are considering evidence? A feeling? Oh my.

 

[Keysplayr]

I'm the boss do as I say!

Who made you boss?

So ok boys and girls. Start listing your evidence, proof, or otherwise known foul play. And it should be a helluva lot more than a "feeling".
This thread was so over before it began.

 

[Zanovar]

It isn't. Saying that someone is condescending for showing how ridiculous an argument is, doesn't automatically make it so.

Again, lets not make this personal. Don't worry about how I feel, etc. etc. Don't worry about what makes me believe my opinion matters.
Whether I am biased or not, and I've made it plainly know forever and a month of Sundays now, that I much prefer Nvidia products. And not by just a little. Dude, you should know by now, that during an argument, one person suddenly goes after the other personally (my feelings, My opinion doesn't count, you're condescing, etc. etc.) you've lost. It means you have nothing left and it's a last resort. Can't best the argument, then let me go after his credibility. Well, fine. I'll accept that. It's a natural course of action when backed into a corner. But don't think it goes without a price.

Be well.

Keys

I see his point though keys,your hardly impartial are you,maybe you should step back a bit from these debates and disscusions.just a thought