Crysis 2 Tessellation Article

[Madcatatlas]

It isn't. Saying that someone is condescending for showing how ridiculous an argument is, doesn't automatically make it so.

Again, lets not make this personal. Don't worry about how I feel, etc. etc. Don't worry about what makes me believe my opinion matters.
Whether I am biased or not, and I've made it plainly know forever and a month of Sundays now, that I much prefer Nvidia products. And not by just a little. Dude, you should know by now, that during an argument, one person suddenly goes after the other personally (my feelings, My opinion doesn't count, you're condescing, etc. etc.) you've lost. It means you have nothing left and it's a last resort. Can't best the argument, then let me go after his credibility. Well, fine. I'll accept that. It's a natural course of action when backed into a corner. But don't think it goes without a price.

Be well.

Keys

I think you should have ended your post at the part i bolded. He has a point and you not acknowledging the point doesn't make it any less true.

We have also been "there and back" in this topic several times, i think people are failing to understand the notion that most people will believe what they want to believe.
There is no need to make someone change their mind really, and i see some new members are making this mistake. Just let it go is my advice. After all, you are neither selling or marketing any of the cards, so why bother getting worked up about it?.

 

[SirPauly]

On the other hand, while the Radeon HD 6900s are supposed to double throughput when tessellation is used (we confirmed this in theoretical tests), in practice this isn’t the case in Crysis 2. Is this due to a GPU limitation in certain cases? Are the drivers limited in terms of support for the double tessellator? Or is it a bug? As during our tests AMD had no answer other than the drivers advised for use with Crysis 2 DirectX 11 were still the Catalyst 11.6s, we don't know.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/...ser-look-at-performance-and-tessellation.html

Some of the stark differences in performances from nVidia and AMD are even more so based on this. I'm surprised that no one raised this point. Has anyone investigated this to see if this has been addressed with future drivers?

 

[Keysplayr]

I see his point though keys,your hardly impartial are you,maybe you should step back a bit from these debates and disscusions.just a thought

Never claimed to be impartial, don't know why anyone thinks so. Impartiality has nothing to do with this, however.

If there was a quality debate going on, that would be great, but this is really built up on unfounded accusations and conspiracy theories. Then some members do not like when somebody calls them on it and they have no retort but to go after my spelling capabilities.

I hear you Zanovar, don't think I'm not getting you. But it doesn't apply here although everyone I am having issues with would have you believe otherwise. Trust me, that is what is happening here. When they have nothing, they go after a members character/opinions/personality and try to make others question the same just as you may have done here. Nobody is immune, I get it.

Keys

 

[Jacky60]

Never claimed to be impartial, don't know why anyone thinks so. Impartiality has nothing to do with this, however.

If there was a quality debate going on, that would be great, but this is really built up on unfounded accusations and conspiracy theories. Then some members do not like when somebody calls them on it and they have no retort but to go after my spelling capabilities.

I hear you Zanovar, don't think I'm not getting you. But it doesn't apply here although everyone I am having issues with would have you believe otherwise. Trust me, that is what is happening here. When they have nothing, they go after a members character/opinions/personality and try to make others question the same just as you may have done here. Nobody is immune, I get it.

Keys

I think its important when holding any respected position of power or influence to state your values, and I respect you for that Keys. I do claim to be impartial because I want both companies to succeed. If this is what it takes to improve AMD compute/tessellation performance then so be it. When I stated your lack of impartiality earlier in the thread post 221 I received a warning. Can I have an apology for you confessing to a lack of impartiality?

 

[Zanovar]

I think its important when holding any respected position of power or influence to state your values, and I respect you for that Keys. I do claim to be impartial because I want both companies to succeed. If this is what it takes to improve AMD compute/tessellation performance then so be it. When I stated your lack of impartiality earlier in the thread post 221 I received a warning. Can I have an apology for you confessing to a lack of impartiality?

hahahahahah

 

[SirPauly]

What I don't understand is posters complaining about the performance difference and yet the double throughput isn't working properly on AMD sku's. Talk about deflecting.

 

[WMD]

What I don't understand is posters complaining about the performance difference and yet the double throughput isn't working properly on AMD sku's. Talk about deflecting.

The results for 6900 series in Crysis 2 are very interesting. In all previous DX11 benchmarks, their vastly improved tessellation engine generally performs up to 2X years cards in benchmarks and almost catches up to Nvidia's solutions. But in Crysis 2, it all amounts to nothing.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/...ser-look-at-performance-and-tessellation.html

A coincidence that this game's unique tessellation workload somehow hits AMD at its weakest or a premeditated effort designing the game around the 6900 graphics architecture? Could this explain why DX11 patch was delayed?

 

[Seero]

Gsus man, are you reading what you are writing? Have you BOTHERED to read any posts in this topic at all claiming that, and proving that there is WASTED tesselation dropping performance on BOTH Nvidia AND AMD cards?

Are you blind man?

An ocean of invisible tesselation cannot be fixed with AMDs drivers. But lo and behold, there is no hidden hack in DeusEx 2. Thus, it works fine on both graphic producers. I mean, you just said this yourself, yet you pose a question....

Seriously man, lay of the donuts.

I am not blind, but I do know a bit about graphics. The believe is that it is a waste to build a city on top of an ocean where the ocean itself is dynamically tessellated and not visible, and thus wasting computation. The inherent believe is that performance will be better if the ocean was not there if it is not visible. The problem is, most of the posters here lack the ability to generate the scene in question. In fact, most do not even know how to generate a scene, let alone a dynically tessellated scene. Because people do not have an idea of how it is done, they will not have the idea of the amount of computation needed between methods. Those who have the expertises can criticizes the method, but so far, all I see is laymen talks and conspiracy theroies.

I can go on and start explaining how things work, but then it will simply turn into senseless arguements as it really does not answer the question, is it actually a waste of build a city on top of a tessellated ocean. The only real way of killing this debate is to recreate the entire scene with another method and compare the performance and quality, which is not the direction where the debate is going. Nvidia attackers are claiming that either Nvidia paid crytek or TWIMTBP inserted code/ideas kills ALL video card except GTX 570/580/590 in crysis 2. In fact, everytime where AMD cards underperform, it is because of Nvidia. Really, if AMD suck because of Nvidia and Nvidia do not suck because of AMD, then clearly, Nvidia wins. If video cards of AMD lack the tessellation capacity compare to video cards Nvidia, then eventually Nvidia will beat AMD on newer games as tessellation is such a big thing now. Sorry, the tessellation level is going to increase as time goes by and if tessellation is a weakness of AMD, then eventually, they will under perform until AMD fixes it through new hardware or software. Sorry, IMO telling game dev to reduce the use of tessellation is not the way to go and the spread of conspiracy theory is getting really old.

 

[Mistwalker]

I am not blind, but I do know a bit about graphics. The believe is that it is a waste to build a city on top of an ocean where the ocean itself is dynamically tessellated and not visible, and thus wasting computation. The inherent believe is that performance will be better if the ocean was not there if it is not visible. The problem is, most of the posters here lack the ability to generate the scene in question. In fact, most do not even know how to generate a scene, let alone a dynically tessellated scene. Because people do not have an idea of how it is done, they will not have the idea of the amount of computation needed between methods. Those who have the expertises can criticizes the method, but so far, all I see is laymen talks and conspiracy theroies.

I don't need to be a graphic designer to understand that objects not being displayed, but being rendered in the graphics pipeline, are a waste of resources. The tessellation in Crysis 2 was applied manually to specific textures; it was a conscious decision to tessellate that ocean, knowing it would not be ultimately displayed.

You say you know a bit about graphics--can you offer any hypotheses as to the reasoning behind this (as it stands) complete waste of resources?

I can go on and start explaining how things work, but then it will simply turn into senseless arguements as it really does not answer the question, is it actually a waste of build a city on top of a tessellated ocean.

Wait, so you could explain why this was done, but you won't because it doesn't answer the question? As in, you don't actually know whether it's a waste to build a city on an invisible tessellated ocean?

I for one would love to hear how things work, and what reasoning could possibly justify what now does indeed seem like gratuitous inefficiency.

If anyone has a defensible reason, I don't see how it could possibly lead to more arguments--the thinking and reasoning behind that ocean is the crux of the issue for many of us!

Sorry, the tessellation level is going to increase as time goes by and if tessellation is a weakness of AMD, then eventually, they will under perform until AMD fixes it through new hardware or software. Sorry, IMO telling game dev to reduce the use of tessellation is not the way to go and the spread of conspiracy theory is getting really old.

Why are you apologizing? No one in this thread is complaining about the technology. No one is saying tessellation should go away. I, and others, are frustrated that it's being misused.

 

[SirPauly]

The results for 6900 series in Crysis 2 are very interesting. In all previous DX11 benchmarks, their vastly improved tessellation engine generally performs up to 2X years cards in benchmarks and almost catches up to Nvidia's solutions. But in Crysis 2, it all amounts to nothing.

http://www.behardware.com/articles/...ser-look-at-performance-and-tessellation.html

A coincidence that this game's unique tessellation workload somehow hits AMD at its weakest or a premeditated effort designing the game around the 6900 graphics architecture? Could this explain why DX11 patch was delayed?

There is something odd about the performance with the 69XX series here even the 5770 has less of a percentage hit. The key though when Damien asked AMD what's wrong -- there was basically no answer.

 

[SirPauly]

Wait, so you could explain why this was done, but you won't because it doesn't answer the question? As in, you don't actually know whether it's a waste to build a city on an invisible tessellated ocean?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31992217&postcount=93

Possible?

 

[Genx87]

I don't need to be a graphic designer to understand that objects not being displayed, but being rendered in the graphics pipeline, are a waste of resources. The tessellation in Crysis 2 was applied manually to specific textures; it was a conscious decision to tessellate that ocean, knowing it would not be ultimately displayed.

I think what he is saying is we dont know if cutting that out in the engine would cost more resources than rendering the wireframe and not displaying it. The only way to find out is to have Crytek modify the engine to detect the edge of the ocean and stop calculating the wireframe. Then compare and see how the results come out.

 

[Pantalaimon]

Never claimed to be impartial, don't know why anyone thinks so. Impartiality has nothing to do with this, however.

Depends what you define by impartial. Does it only mean that you prefer NVIDIA to AMD, or does it also mean that in your eyes NVIDIA can do no wrong, and you'll defend NVIDIA no matter what, e.g. card frying drivers, bumbgate, holding up a mockup in front of people and letting people think it's the real thing.

 

[Mistwalker]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31992217&postcount=93

Possible?

I will admit to not knowing why an engine would require such a thing, but if it is one of CryEngine's limitations, it would explain the ocean.

Still...

I think what he is saying is we dont know if cutting that out in the engine would cost more resources than rendering the wireframe and not displaying it. The only way to find out is to have Crytek modify the engine to detect the edge of the ocean and stop calculating the wireframe. Then compare and see how the results come out.

...even assuming the ocean is necessary due to engine limitations, why would it need to be tessellated?

 

[Pantalaimon]

Still...
...even assuming the ocean is necessary due to engine limitations, why would it need to be tessellated?

Depends on who you ask.

1. We peons are too dumb to know about these technical things and just should bow and thank Crytek that we have a DX11 game with plenty of tessallation.

2. There's no such thing as unnecessary tessellation. It doesn't matter that it's tessallating unseen oceans against logic (since it's not visible to the player), because this pushes the technical envelope and image quality (never mind the cost benefit because you should have chosen team green's card). I believe oil companies can use the same logic to derive and defend cars that guzzle gas as well.

 

[SirPauly]

holding up a mockup in front of people and letting people think it's the real thing.

It was an introduction to Fermi and the demo at that GTC was using actual Fermi hardware. nVidia has made mistakes and is not perfect but there are some that cherry pick negatives and ignore the positives, too.

 

[Madcatatlas]

Vice versa?

 

[Pantalaimon]

It was an introduction to Fermi and the demo at that GTC was using actual Fermi hardware. nVidia has made mistakes and is not perfect but there are some that cherry pick negatives and ignore the positives, too.

The problem is that some don't even acknowledge the negatives but try to spin it as not negative, and in some cases even as positive.

 

[SirPauly]

Sure, there are all kinds and sometimes extremism on all sides -- that's a given.

 

[Madcatatlas]

lol...come on, you cant be serious calling it extremism...

Its difference of opinion mostly and the repeated "im right you are wrong" mentality basicly. Though I am sure it you weighted the faults of each company, Nvidia s bowl would weigh the most And coincidentally, they are the ones doing best in terms of making money....who would have figured...

 

[mosox]

I don't remember the FX 5200 being faster than the 9800XT in any game. Or a GTX 7900 being faster than the HD 3850, the 9600 GT being faster than the HD 4850. I don't remember a new $150 card beating a new $250 card in any game.

That's a new thing and the gaming market might split according to the different hardware if this trend continues (the HW manufacturers using the SW developers in order to push their agenda).

Heck, if AMD gets to write the synthetic benches and other software, a Phenom II might came out better than the i-5 2500K.

 

[ocre]

Do you just not get it? Or, are you just refusing to acknowledge every time the logic is pointed out to you?

This game runs the way it does to have a title that nVidia cards have a huge advantage in. It doesn't matter if they can actually run the game at playable frame rates, as long as they are a lot faster than AMD cards. That way, when reviewers average in the results it gives the nVidia cards a boost over the AMD cards. Add a couple of other titles in to the mix that are designed to run the same way and you have cards that are slower overall looking like they are faster. 560 ti's appearing faster than 6970's, for instance.

I feel bad for you. 99% of gamers dont even know how to see their fps or anything about fraps. 99% of gamers dont care about or even know if their getting 100fps or 35fps.

Only ppl who want to spread propaganda are concerned with such things. PPL who work for AMD and NVIDIA care about these things because they want to sell propaganda as well as GPUs.

Now me and most ppl dont care about your team looking bad. I just want to play the game and it not be a slide show. Their are plenty of AMD cards that can accomplish this and one of them happens to be a card that has the chance to unlock to a card that cost much more. If i was to buy a card it would be a 6950 for that reason and thats good enough for me.

You are seeing things through a very very small hole and your brain is wrapped around your brand. Most ppl just want to play games with their GPU, not make its a life mission to parade their brand and dis nonstop on another. This is all about the performance of my budget card, i dont care much for your propaganda. AMD could use someone like you working for them. I dont see at all where you are coming from but from a marketing point a view i could see why it would be sooo important to you tgo make ppl to think this way! It is backwards thinking!

 

[SirPauly]

lol...come on, you cant be serious calling it extremism

You honestly believe there isn't some level of extremism on both sides in this thread?

How many vocal views were there just on a single shot of the water tessellation? Made up their minds, quick to judge? A virtual rally cry for justice, hehe, added some extremism for fun!

 

[Keysplayr]

I think its important when holding any respected position of power or influence to state your values, and I respect you for that Keys. I do claim to be impartial because I want both companies to succeed. If this is what it takes to improve AMD compute/tessellation performance then so be it. When I stated your lack of impartiality earlier in the thread post 221 I received a warning. Can I have an apology for you confessing to a lack of impartiality?

Quoted Jacky60 from post 221:
"The reason Keysplayer can disagree that tessellating an entire invisible ocean is a waste of resources is abundantly obvious from his signature. He is understandably incapable of being neutral or objective because he is a member of Nvidia focus group. Its his 'job' to support Nvidia and argue in favour of such indefensible actions. Its the same reason that arms manufacturers and oil companies are in favour of invading small oil rich countries.
To be honest if I was given free graphics cards from one manufacturer I'd probably argue that black is white just as he and the rest of the Nvidians are doing."

Seems to me like you did a whole lot more that accuse me of being impartial. Seemed that way to the moderator also. You also claim I'm defending an indefensible action. What I think is happening, is that there isn't any indefensible action. There isn't even an action. You'd like there to be one, perhaps? I don't know. There isn't any.

 

[Keysplayr]

You honestly believe there isn't some level of extremism on both sides in this thread?

How many vocal views were there just on a single shot of the water tessellation? Made up their minds, quick to judge? A virtual rally cry for justice, hehe, added some extremism for fun!

Agreed. And extremism begets extremism unfortunately.