Curious question: Are Smartphone and Tablet processors are "less advanced"...

Status
Not open for further replies.

dangerman1337

Senior member
Sep 16, 2010
333
5
81
in general compared to say Intel's Haswell CPUs or Nvidia's Kepler GPUs?

I was wondering since that Smartphone and Tablets are increasing with power but Laptop/Desktop not so much. Are the former just catching up in terms of their architectures or am I totally wrong?
 

postmortemIA

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2006
7,721
40
91
I wouldn't call them less advanced, just focus is on different aspects:
mobile CPU: 1. power consumption before everything else, then 2. improve performance within same power constraints
desktop CPUs: 1. raw power first, then 2. power consumption.
ARM CPUs have great performance per Watt. Desktop CPUs have great performance.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
Their IPC is certainly lower because they use a lot less tricks to get high performance so that the chips are smaller. In many ways I would call that less advanced, but its because those tricks consume large amounts of power that they are not used.
 

SecurityTheatre

Senior member
Aug 14, 2011
672
0
0
Their IPC is certainly lower because they use a lot less tricks to get high performance so that the chips are smaller. In many ways I would call that less advanced, but its because those tricks consume large amounts of power that they are not used.

Ahh, but a lot of the modern tablet chips use a DIFFERENT set of advanced tricks (such as selective power down, etc).

Although, it might be fair to say that those end up in desktop CPUs pretty quickly too.

It's a bit like comparing a Corvette or even a big truck to a Chevy Volt, or a Smart Car.

Is the Corvette "more advanced"? Well, the Volt has some cool stufff that the Corvette doesn't have, like a battery and electric motor.

But the engineering that goes into making the Corvette FAST is far beyond what's in a Volt, simply because there is room for high compression direct injection engines, pneumatic suspension, active traction control, etc, etc, etc.
 

Sheep221

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2012
1,843
27
81
They are much simplier than x86 for sure, if not tablets and phones would also be equipped with x86s.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
in general compared to say Intel's Haswell CPUs or Nvidia's Kepler GPUs?

I was wondering since that Smartphone and Tablets are increasing with power but Laptop/Desktop not so much. Are the former just catching up in terms of their architectures or am I totally wrong?

Totally wrong, but I don't say that in a bad way.

It's really apples and oranges, honestly, and they're not really comparable. It's true that smartphone and tablet processors are less sophisticated than their desktop x86 counterparts, but I wouldn't say they're any less advanced. They're just designed for a different environment.

We tend to hold ARM processors in awe because they can offer great performance for a low power load, but what we tend to forget is that those very same processors can't be scaled up into Haswell territory. And, the reverse is true where Haswell can't really scale down into smartphone/tablet territory, although Intel has made great advancements over the last few years bridging that gap.

And what we've also found is that IPC is clockspeed targeted. If you run a Haswell and an ARM processor at 800mhz, the ARM processor might actually be faster. If you run them at 3.0ghz, the ARM processor gets slaughtered. That's why I say they're really apples and oranges, and you can't compare them.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,278
126
106
We tend to hold ARM processors in awe because they can offer great performance for a low power load, but what we tend to forget is that those very same processors can't be scaled up into Haswell territory. And, the reverse is true where Haswell can't really scale down into smartphone/tablet territory, although Intel has made great advancements over the last few years bridging that gap.

Ehh, I'm not sure that is true.

Intel has spent decades of engineering time and research into making their x86 processors as fast as possible. (In fact, I would argue that they may have hit the wall of what they can do with the x86 uArch). Sure, they had power constraints, but those were much wider than what the typical ARM processor would have (120W, Meh, put a bigger fan on it and power it up!)

I think that where ARM to shift their focus on performance rather than power consumption, they could probably make it into the Intel level of performance (with a couple of decades behind them). In some ways, I think it is possible for them to become faster just because the ARM uArch is slightly less crusty than the good ole' x86.

But, I can't say for sure how far it would go (it hasn't been done. They are still targeting sub-watt power consumption in most cases). The only way to know for sure how far they would go is if ARM decided "Hey, lets make an arm processor with a 65W power profile" and developed it through several generations.
 

SecurityTheatre

Senior member
Aug 14, 2011
672
0
0
Ehh, I'm not sure that is true.

Intel has spent decades of engineering time and research into making their x86 processors as fast as possible. (In fact, I would argue that they may have hit the wall of what they can do with the x86 uArch). Sure, they had power constraints, but those were much wider than what the typical ARM processor would have (120W, Meh, put a bigger fan on it and power it up!)

I think that where ARM to shift their focus on performance rather than power consumption, they could probably make it into the Intel level of performance (with a couple of decades behind them). In some ways, I think it is possible for them to become faster just because the ARM uArch is slightly less crusty than the good ole' x86.

But, I can't say for sure how far it would go (it hasn't been done. They are still targeting sub-watt power consumption in most cases). The only way to know for sure how far they would go is if ARM decided "Hey, lets make an arm processor with a 65W power profile" and developed it through several generations.

We have had this discussion recently here. There is nothing inherent in the INSTRUCTION SET that ARM uses that makes it power friendly. It is ENTIRELY in the architecture.

Does the CPU use aggressive branch prediction? What is the latency/throughput of floating point operations? Do you have speculative execution, do you have out of order processing? What is the size of the caches? What is the set-associativity of the caches?

I'm sure that the engineers at ARM could develop an i7 processor, but it would take them 4-6 years of engineering work. Debugging a high-end OOP SMT superscalar speculative-execution multicore chip with three levels of cache is EXTREMELY hard, even if the general design concepts are well known. Perhaps ARM has a team doing that, but I doubt it. Intel has somewhere on the order of 6-10 CPU design teams working semi-independently on separate chips in parallel to support their multiple platform tick-tock style annual releases on multiple performance tiers.

I would also point out that the newest Atom matches ARM pretty well on a performance-per-watt basis.

I would also argue that Intel has slowed down their "brute-force" style performance improvements and have migrated gradually into more elegant ways (exploiting implicit parallelism, elegant SIMD, etc). Intel is simply up against information theory and quantum physics. Transistor die shrinks don't give the improvement you used to see, exotic tricks like branch prediction have already hit 98% accuracy and are reaching theoretical limits, cache designs are insanely complex to exploit every little drop of throughput. The Atom does some cool exotic stuff like zero latency load/store operations while at the same time simplifying the pipeline back to 486/Pentium era in some ways (in-order, no speculative ops) and still maintaining cutting edge technology (improved SMT, aka HyperThreading) that ARM doesn't match.

To some extent, each of these features was gradually iterated over time. Rhe original Pentium, one of the first widely used chips to have branch prediction and speculative execution, used a predictor that was ~93% accurate. The P3 was about 95% accurate. However, in the P4 vs Athlon days, Intel made an active decision to stick with the P5 branch predictor, presumably in order to save the transistors and apply them to adding additional ALU execution units and/or to deeper pipelines for clockspeed. AMD, instead, chose to use a more exotic branch prediction unit that was somewhat more accurate (~97%). History shows us that AMD's approach was correct and now Intel has adopted a similar BP algorithm as well. But in a low-power design, you might want to use the simpler prediction, in order to reduce power usage. The ARM A7 didn't even have branch prediction (though, the branch miss-latency was only 3 cycles). This is just one example of a hundred or so similar tradeoffs that are made for mobile chips.

how about discrete GPUs? How do they fare in this comparison?

It's a totally different type of processor, but one might argue that GPUs are actually the most advanced chips in your computer today. They certainly can be, by the die size and the transistor count, especially the number of actual processing transistors (vs L3 cache) built into the die.

An 8-10 core Xeon processor tops out around 3-5 billion transistors, a huge fraction of which is cache. nVidia's Kepler GPU is over 7 billion, with very little cache in comparison. However, to be fair, that is the result of parallelizing hundreds (or even thousands) of smaller processing units, so it all really comes down to "what do you mean by advanced?"
 
Last edited:

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
But, I can't say for sure how far it would go (it hasn't been done. They are still targeting sub-watt power consumption in most cases). The only way to know for sure how far they would go is if ARM decided "Hey, lets make an arm processor with a 65W power profile" and developed it through several generations.

MIPS has been in both the high performance arena (where intel has mostly been) and in the low-cost, embedded market (where ARM has mostly been). so, it kinda has been done.

could ARM go high performance? yes, but to get near intel's level of performance it'd be using near intel's level of electricity. and that's giving ARM the benefit of intel's manufacturing.

what happened was that ARM's general operation processors finally weren't so slow that they couldn't provide a decent user experience for a (very limited computing experience from a desktop perspective but a nearly unlimited computing experience compared to feature phones) when allowed to suck down a battery in less than a day (flip phones have days of battery life, remember that?), especially when paired with some hardware that targets very specific tasks (like video playback).


Debugging a high-end OOP SMT superscalar speculative-execution multicore chip with three levels of cache is EXTREMELY hard, even if the general design concepts are well known.
AMD sure as heck couldn't do it and it had a decade working on high performance cores. K10 wasn't even as fast as conroe, let alone nehalem.
 
Last edited:

SecurityTheatre

Senior member
Aug 14, 2011
672
0
0
AMD sure as heck couldn't do it and it had a decade working on high performance cores. K10 wasn't even as fast as conroe, let alone nehalem.

That's true enough, although, I would contend that a huge part of AMD's disadvantage is the fabrication process. Intel has almost a generation on everyone, and that means AMD must be more conservative with their designs these days.

They really hit it out of the park when they brought up their FAB30 in Dresden back in the Athlon days. Their acquisition of DEC together with a huge burst in infrastructure spending along with a few lucky guesses bought them a decade of parity in performance with Intel, but inevitably, they couldn't keep that up.

Intel dwarfs them in R&D spending, so it was only a matter of time...
 

Scarinx

Junior Member
Jan 19, 2014
22
0
0
They also cant be as powerful as the main advantage of smartphone is portability so if they are as powerful as desktops they would drain batterys much faster so they make them less powerful as to not draw much resources
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |