Current Athlon XP to get HEATSPREADER!

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Why not? The only difference will be the distance to the top of the package, the form factor does not change. Socket A uses clips, so tell me how this would not suffice?

I could be wrong, but I would think that the added heighth would create the need for a different clip.

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
You don't think a lower bottom line allows them to sell the product for a lower price while maintaining a profit?

Except that AMD isn't maintaining a profit. But even if they were, they would still price their products as high as the market will bear, while being able to sell the quantity that they desire.

i.e. Let's say that Wingz Inc. can make widgets for $10 each. And when they price them at $100, they can sell enough to meet their target quantities. CEO John figures out that they can decrease the cost by 50%! Even though they will now reap a better net profit, there's no point in reducing the price point, since the market will bear selling them at $100 each.

At least that's my opinion of how it works.

Widgets!!! I'm buying!!! As Thornton Mellon would say "Try Fantasy Land!!!"

But yah Wingz is right, AMD sells cheap not b/c they want to, but b/c they have to. Unfortunately, its a vicious cycle with AMD; they can't price their CPUs higher b/c OEMs won't take the risk (perception is everything in terms of stability and need for support) and build expensive systems around AMD chips, which forces AMD to price their CPUs lower. This in turn gives the consumer a negative image of AMD chips (always been the underdog) of being a "value" solution, which in turn makes it an undesirable solution for those willing to pay top dollar for top-of-the-line performance. There are other factors involved such as hardware/software support (chipset is the perfect example, OEMs know that Intel makes their chipsets, and we all know about perceived instability issues with AMD chipsets). Also at one point not all software was compatible with AMD chips. These compatibility issues linger in the minds of OEMs, who see this in turn as a potential support nightmare (and costly one at that).

All you have to do is look around here; people who choose AMD do so b/c of price vs. performance and the flexibility it offers. An AMD owner can go through 2 or 3 chips before an Intel user upgrades, but the bottom line is that Intel's margins allow them to profit equally or more so from 1 chip instead of the 3 needed by AMD. This gives off a false sense of durability and staying power associated with an Intel product and also casts an image of disposability on AMD chips. Just look around here; Top of the line Barton is MSRP'ing at $600 and all people are saying is it costs too much and there's no way they're buying it. Same can't be said for a 3.06 Intel P4 HT that debuted at ~$800. No one wants to pay for the top of the line, they want prices to drop with the next release so they can snatch up a faster chip at a firesale price, or wait for a good stepping to OC their "bargain" basement chip. I just spent $91 on a 2100+ T-bred B and thats honestly the most I've spent on an AMD chip in like 1 1/2 years (course I won an 1800+ last year during the AMD tour ).

Bottom line is: AMD doesn't have some magical process of fab'ing cheaper chips and thereby retaining the same margins Intel would on a P4. In reality, AMD would sell their chips for more, IF they could.

Chiz

 

[chizow]

Oh yah, about the retention clip. I think it really depends on the mounting mechanism itself. 4 hole mounts like the 8045 or MC462 should have no problems at all with the extra profile added by a heatspreader. I think most clip mechanisms should be able to accomodate the added size of the heatspreader. Clip mechanisms are essentially just a "V" shape that create a point of pressure on the heat sinks base plate where the core would be. The only way the existing clips wouldn't work is if the added height of the spreader alters the point of contact so severely that the other clip will not be able to reach the other teeth on the socket A. Also, this could be an issue as well with heatsinks that have very stiff retention mechanisms that don't have much give. It will undoubtedly take more effort and pressure, but I'm sure most existing heatsinks will be compatible. Also, I've read that the XP line is due for heatspreaders, as well as the entire Barton and Opteron/Hammer lines.

Chiz

 

[DivideBYZero]

BARTON 3000+ shipping:

HERE!

 

[Wingznut]

From spartantechnologies.com...

ATHLON XP 3000+ SOCKET A (333Mhz BUS) 512K CACHE BARTON CORE WITH QUANTISPEED ARCHITECHTURE OPERATING AT 2.16GHZ OEM VERSION
(Purchase a fan to extend the warranty from 30 days to 1 year)
AMDXP3000333OEM ETA 2/10

It says the same thing for all Bartons.

 

[jiffylube1024]

I really don't think the heatspreader (if true) is such a bad idea. First of all, people complained about the lack of heatspreaders, and now everyone is a professional engineer with a PhD in thermodynamics

... I don't think they would introduce one because of dumbasses who chip cores, only if it had a real purpose. Adding a heatspreader adds to the manufacturing cost with the extra materials for the IHS, as well as the extra step of epoxying the IHS to the core.

Heat spreaders are used to a pretty good effect on the P4, and very few Pentium users complain about them. I believe the whole point is that it's epoxied so well that it becomes essentially an extension of the die. They don't just scrape glue on the core and put it in a vice; they cure the epoxy at a very high pressure and temperature. No junction will be perfect, but I'm sure they do a pretty good job.

Also, someone asked for all-copper IHS's. I don't think that will happen unless you are willing to pay a good amount more for your CPU. Copper is much more expensive than Aluminum, and considerably heavier also.

 

[mechBgon]

The P4's heatspreader is nickel-plated copper.

 

[PliotronX]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
The P4's heatspreader is nickel-plated copper.

As well as the P3-Tuallys' and Tualerons'

 

[jiffylube1024]

Here is a good link intel tech docs on the IHS and many other thermal factors

If you read pages 1, 4,5,6 you will get a good idea of just a few problems why an IHS is becoming necessary. It is not a hunk if aluminum glued to the top of the core to spread heat for dumbasses who don't know how to fit on a HSF level.

Here are a few concepts I pulled from the article:

-hot spots: the core of a CPU does not exhibit uniform heat buildup; various sections of the CPU heat up more or less than the surroundings, and there are many problems with this (it gets fairly technical, and I don't understand all of the concepts... the message is that the IHS helps spread the heat better...)

-small surface area: the small surface area of the die is difficult to keep uniform, especially over time and with the constant pressure of the HSF on the die. an IHS makes it much easier to have a controlled, more uniform surface (obviously nothing's perfect). Also, the TIM (thermal interface material: Arctic Silver 3 for most of us ) is under constant heat/pressure, and keeping the layer as thin as possible, while also keeping it uniform is a very difficult issue. Again, an IHS makes this issue a lot more controllable.

-TIM used in the IHS to die junction: as said above, the P4 uses a copper-nickel plated IHS. There is a lot of ongoing research into TIMs for the junction between the die of the CPU and the IHS. Various TIM's hypothesized are "made up of metals such as lead, tin, or bismuth". So, these are engineered materials chosen for their superior conductivity; probably far superior to AS3 for their purpose (they do spend billions of dollars on research...)


So, this is just a few points of why Intel uses an IHS, and I'm sure AMD has the same reasoning.

 

[mechBgon]

Another aspect that I'm sure AMD and Intel think about a lot is the longevity of the TIM. Having an IHS allows them to mandate what TIM is in contact with the core. They are naturally going to want something that can endure for the 3-year warranty period, so that's another plus to IHS's from their standpoint.

After seeing the photos of Kyle's "exploded" P4 3.06GHz here, I wonder what's really being used there. It's got to have enough elasticity to allow for the different thermal expansion rates of silicon versus copper (or maybe that's what ripped Kyle's core to shreds, a lack of elasticity combined with an extreme temperature differential?).

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Another aspect that I'm sure AMD and Intel think about a lot is the longevity of the TIM. Having an IHS allows them to mandate what TIM is in contact with the core. They are naturally going to want something that can endure for the 3-year warranty period, so that's another plus to IHS's from their standpoint.

After seeing the photos of Kyle's "exploded" P4 3.06GHz here, I wonder what's really being used there. It's got to have enough elasticity to allow for the different thermal expansion rates of silicon versus copper (or maybe that's what ripped Kyle's core to shreds, a lack of elasticity combined with an extreme temperature differential?).

Well, if the TIM from the die to HSF fails, what prevents the TIM from the heat spreader to HSF from failing in the 3 year warranty period then?

Kyle's hypothesis for why his IHS popped off seemed to make perfect sense: the suction of the seal of the cooling unit, combined with the cold of the cooler (-25C, which probably isn't even a rated operating temperature for the chip) caused a contraction of the metal, and pop goes the IHS.

You're right about the elasticity - I'm sure the temperature differential killed the TIM material - as said above, -25C probably isn't even a rated operating temp...

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Another aspect that I'm sure AMD and Intel think about a lot is the longevity of the TIM. Having an IHS allows them to mandate what TIM is in contact with the core. They are naturally going to want something that can endure for the 3-year warranty period, so that's another plus to IHS's from their standpoint.

After seeing the photos of Kyle's "exploded" P4 3.06GHz here, I wonder what's really being used there. It's got to have enough elasticity to allow for the different thermal expansion rates of silicon versus copper (or maybe that's what ripped Kyle's core to shreds, a lack of elasticity combined with an extreme temperature differential?).

Well, if the TIM from the die to HSF fails, what prevents the TIM from the heat spreader to HSF from failing in the 3 year warranty period then?

Kyle's hypothesis for why his IHS popped off seemed to make perfect sense: the suction of the seal of the cooling unit, combined with the cold of the cooler (-25C, which probably isn't even a rated operating temperature for the chip) caused a contraction of the metal, and pop goes the IHS.

You're right about the elasticity - I'm sure the temperature differential killed the TIM material - as said above, -25C probably isn't even a rated operating temp...

That's something I've wondered about, the failure of the TIM over the 3 years. You've seen those AMD-approved "melt-to-fit" phase-change pads, I'm sure. Looks like they basically form a dam around the core, so the goo will be sealed in and flow back if something tilts.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: mechBgon

That's something I've wondered about, the failure of the TIM over the 3 years. You've seen those AMD-approved "melt-to-fit" phase-change pads, I'm sure. Looks like they basically form a dam around the core, so the goo will be sealed in and flow back if something tilts.

Well, I don't think it's as big of an issue as you believe... Even if the TIM starts to whack out (get all viscous and liquidy, form an uneven seal, etc) then chances are it will just raise CPU temps by a good bit, and if worse comes to worse, cause instability. Then, the informed user will say "gee, time to re-apply AS3", and the uninformed user will just take it back to Dell/Best Buy/etc and pay them $100 to look at it. The technician there will re-apply, and problem solved.

Also, yeah I've seen those chewing-gum tabs on HSF's before . Probably scraped off about 12 of 'em before. Those just melt and form a seal; they're built to last for awhile, but I've seen cases where they just melt off over time (this was notorious on the super-hot AMD Tbird). Again, usually it just causes instability, and if they're smart enough to install temperature monitoring software, they will see their 50C+ idle temps...

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024

Originally posted by: mechBgon

That's something I've wondered about, the failure of the TIM over the 3 years. You've seen those AMD-approved "melt-to-fit" phase-change pads, I'm sure. Looks like they basically form a dam around the core, so the goo will be sealed in and flow back if something tilts.

Well, I don't think it's as big of an issue as you believe... Even if the TIM starts to whack out (get all viscous and liquidy, form an uneven seal, etc) then chances are it will just raise CPU temps by a good bit, and if worse comes to worse, cause instability. Then, the informed user will say "gee, time to re-apply AS3", and the uninformed user will just take it back to Dell/Best Buy/etc and pay them $100 to look at it. The technician there will re-apply, and problem solved.

Also, yeah I've seen those chewing-gum tabs on HSF's before . Probably scraped off about 12 of 'em before. Those just melt and form a seal; they're built to last for awhile, but I've seen cases where they just melt off over time (this was notorious on the super-hot AMD Tbird). Again, usually it just causes instability, and if they're smart enough to install temperature monitoring software, they will see their 50C+ idle temps...

If it's not clear, I wasn't trying to argue about it I have a fleet of AMD systems at work which I built using the retail pad and I'm sure they'll do their 3+ years just fine without a reinstall.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: mechBgon


Also, yeah I've seen those chewing-gum tabs on HSF's before . Probably scraped off about 12 of 'em before. Those just melt and form a seal; they're built to last for awhile, but I've seen cases where they just melt off over time (this was notorious on the super-hot AMD Tbird). Again, usually it just causes instability, and if they're smart enough to install temperature monitoring software, they will see their 50C+ idle temps...

If it's not clear, I wasn't trying to argue about it I have a fleet of AMD systems at work which I built using the retail pad and I'm sure they'll do their 3+ years just fine without a reinstall. [/quote]

Ah! Why didn't you say so! So you're just concerned about if the retail pads will last. I think they should be fine, especially for a couple of years. What chips are they? I've found the 1200-1400 Tbird Athlons to be particularly hot (mostly 1200's that melted their pads that I saw). Either way, I'm sure they're fine. Besides, I don't think you really want to take the HSF off unless they're starting to crash - the retail pad is like putting a grilled cheese sandwich between the die and the HSF, it makes a real mess!

 

[Savatage]

Photoshop ?

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Savatage
Photoshop ?

That, and someone trying to get hits for his site.

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024

Originally posted by: mechBgon


Also, yeah I've seen those chewing-gum tabs on HSF's before . Probably scraped off about 12 of 'em before. Those just melt and form a seal; they're built to last for awhile, but I've seen cases where they just melt off over time (this was notorious on the super-hot AMD Tbird). Again, usually it just causes instability, and if they're smart enough to install temperature monitoring software, they will see their 50C+ idle temps...

If it's not clear, I wasn't trying to argue about it I have a fleet of AMD systems at work which I built using the retail pad and I'm sure they'll do their 3+ years just fine without a reinstall.

Ah! Why didn't you say so! So you're just concerned about if the retail pads will last. I think they should be fine, especially for a couple of years. What chips are they? I've found the 1200-1400 Tbird Athlons to be particularly hot (mostly 1200's that melted their pads that I saw). Either way, I'm sure they're fine. Besides, I don't think you really want to take the HSF off unless they're starting to crash - the retail pad is like putting a grilled cheese sandwich between the die and the HSF, it makes a real mess![/quote]
So far we have Palomino-core AthlonXP 1800+, with one black-sheep 1900+, and my Palomino 1700+. We do have a 2200+/nForce2 combo but it's out of my immediate vincinity now (guy works from home). I wouldn't mind more CPU power on mine, but it's still pretty quick (SCSI hard drive helps it feel very responsive).

My main point was that, the IHS lets the CPU manufacturer dictate what TIM is in contact with the core. They can choose a material that has long life and good performance, eliminating the possibility of the user using low-quality thermal paste in contact with the core. If the user uses low-quality stuff between the IHS and their heatsink, it's not as critical because the interface is so large.

 

[KF]

So this is a fake. And AMD says the XP will not get a heat spreader.

If you recall AMD has always followed Intel's change in packaging since the K7. I believe it had more to do with economics than technology. By using packing which is already mass produced cheaply for the Intel chips, AMD saves money. But AMD has gone so long without putting a spreader back on the package like Intel did, I thought AMD decided not to follow Intel on this one.

Copper is more expensive than aluminum, but in the quantities involved - maybe a couple of ounces- it could't be more than a ten cents. So copper for a heat plate is not an economic barrier. The plating probably runs the price up more.

Although this plate is supposedly a heat spreader, the idea of heat spreader is that it should be thick -like 3/8 inch- so this not much of a heat spreader. It is more of an obstacle than a help as far as heat goes. The material covering the XP chip now is also some barrier, and I suppose the two systems are pretty close. The CPU chip needs some protection from the environment and both do the job. If you want to distribute heat laterally though, you need thickness.

I think AMD decided not to go the route of Intel on this one because it would require manufacturers to readjust and adapt, and that would run up prices a bit, at least for a while. The XP is going to turn into the second-line AMD processor in a few months, so they want the costs low.

 

[JungleMan1]

It says in the title..."Computer news humor and jokes"

Food for thought.

 

[Booster]

C'mon people, this news is from a 'computer jokes' site. Read the headings carefully. It's like a 1st April joke .

And in case it's true... I don't think AMD will have to redesign their heatsinks. That's b/c they don't make them and couldn't care less for their CPUs cooling solutions.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: Booster
C'mon people, this news is from a 'computer jokes' site. Read the headings carefully. It's like a 1st April joke .

And in case it's true... I don't think AMD will have to redesign their heatsinks. That's b/c they don't make them and couldn't care less for their CPUs cooling solutions.

We have jokes and links to hot news. Kyle liked it when I emailed him, so is HardOCP a 'joke' site now?

 

[hdj]

This is an old engineering sample chip. the 27111 on the packaging denotes a palomino cpu. I found a similar picture a while ago here.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: hdj
This is an old engineering sample chip. the 27111 on the packaging denotes a palomino cpu. I found a similar picture a while ago here.

That clears that up then. The model number is clearly a Pally.