Cutting family ties - dick move?

[slackerinabox]

Long story short I'm sure many of you noticed I whine a lot about my in laws. In the past I've blamed it on them having red state values, them being old school white (I'm nyc minority), or them being Christian but, now, I'm learning not to stereotype and just think "asshole" is in their blood.

I admit to being overly sensitive at times but the things they say continue to bother me, especially around my very impressionable toddlers. The latest reason I'm annoyed is over an LGBT conversation, from "the thought of two men kissing, with their beards touching makes me sick to my stomach" to the 'trans are freaks and I'll beat them if they hurt mah kin!" Sorta shit, which bugs me because I'm the opposite - my minister's gay (because I refuse to go to a gay bashing church, but my granddad was a minister so I still value spirituality), my best man was gay, and the guys who really made me a more interesting dude were all gay (had a bunch of gay roommates in Brooklyn and they taught me everything from dating, cooking, to how to dress - it sounds stereotypical but they kinda made me a man). So it's not just me standing up for abstract values, but it's very, very personal to me. Heck, my teenage crush on Trent Reznor still makes me wonder.. Ha... As for my wife's perspective, she's moved from defending them to just being embarrassed by them - i think her turning point was when every family member refused to go to a gay cousin's wedding - of course he moved here to NYC and never talks to any of them, and brunches with us occasionally. We're the only family he has left now, which is kinda sad to me (I"m super kind to him and his husband, I separate him from them and he nods his head in agreement whenever I bitch about them).

Anyways, often when I'm around them I get really hurt and end up being the loud mouth liberal, and I just hate being that guy. The problem is that I feel that silence is an endorsement of those values, and I want to make it very clear to my kids that those values are corrupt (and, like dog training, I believe corrections must occur immediately, not hours after with a 'remember that thing your grandad said about men kissing?). Any ways, it makes me feel like a dick, but I can't help it.

So my question is this - is it wrong to just cut them all out? They seem to believe that they all have some sort of God given right to see them whenever Im pissed at them.. Is it going too far? Honestly, I also worry about the socio-economic influence: the majority of them are factory workers or less, and live in trailers or with their aging parents - is it wrong to think "well, we have good relationships with the ambitious family members, Maybe I don't want my kids to ever see how low their Dna can go?" Especially the women- they're universally very wide, very unambitious, and feed their kids pepsi in sippy cups.. "You're a stay at home mom, you have time to read about proper kids nutrition, ignorance is not an excuse!" They use ignorance as an excuse for a lot of things... Never mind that nearly all of the women in that family seems to have at least one rape story, as if incest is just a thing to do in Missouri. There's always that strange uncle they bring up, right now my count is at 3 different "strange uncles," and they never say who so family reunions are fun games of spot the pedo... Seriously, I watch my two girls like hawks when they're around their Missouri cousins, because you never know and they all are kinda weird around the girls who are thinner and more "exotic" looking than the lot of them, so they stand out (boys offering them flowers,petting, calling them pretty girls - weird, uncousinly stuff that's eerily close to wooing). I always feel so strange around them, so what's so wrong with a "fuck it, they don't need to know them."

 

[nurturedhate]

Negative influences are negative influences. Assholes are assholes. Income, social status, religion, political leaning, race, none of these are valid reasons for being a hateful bigot as there is no valid reason for such attitudes.

Tell grandma and grandpa that if they want to spend time with their grandchildren they can leave their hate at the door or not come around at all. It is not the ideal situation but we make due with what we are presented in life. And remember, we can still love someone and hate them at the same time.

 

[mikeymikec]

I think I'd try to have a calm conversation with whomever you consider to be the most influential / reasonable of them and basically say "if you don't already know that this kind of talk offends me, you do now, and do you think you guys can knock it off, at least in mine and my family's presence?", worded in a way that's less blunt and more diplomatic, but it is an ultimatum.

The bigger question though is how does your partner (guessing wife) feel about such a strategy? Because if she's not in full and honest agreement with you on a way to handle this, then a rethink and full discussion to a useful conclusion is required IMO.

The last time I argued with my dad about homosexuality, I basically said, "I'm fine about discussing this topic with you if you can engage in a calm and reasonable manner about this" (obviously it was not the first time), and he had to stop himself before responding in an obviously heated and purely emotionally charged response, and that was the end of the topic.

 

[slackerinabox]

Negative influences are negative influences. Assholes are assholes. Income, social status, religion, political leaning, race, none of these are valid reasons for being a hateful bigot as there is no valid reason for such attitudes.

Tell grandma and grandpa that if they want to spend time with their grandchildren they can leave their hate at the door or not come around at all. It is not the ideal situation but we make due with what we are presented in life.

Wonderful advice, and thanks for listening. I've always worried about being thought of as the liberal thought police, but you're absolutely right - drawing the line in the sand once is better than constant arguments.

And remember, we can still love someone and hate them at the same time.

I need to write this down somewhere, I wouldn't have a relationship with my dad if a whole lot of forgiveness didn't happen - and you're right.

 

[slackerinabox]

I think I'd try to have a calm conversation with whomever you consider to be the most influential / reasonable of them and basically say "if you don't already know that this kind of talk offends me, you do now, and do you think you guys can knock it off, at least in mine and my family's presence?", worded in a way that's less blunt and more diplomatic, but it is an ultimatum.

It's worth a try. The problem is that they always get really offended or "I have the right to my own opinion!," and somehow can't seem that bigotry isn't an opinion that's up for debate in 2016.. But I'll try.

The bigger question though is how does your partner (guessing wife) feel about such a strategy? Because if she's not in full and honest agreement with you on a way to handle this, then a rethink and full discussion to a useful conclusion is required IMO.

My wife's an absolute wonderful woman and cries at gay weddings just like I do (call me reductive but I feel that gay and trans people have a bravery that I admire), she's not like them at all.. BUT, she doesn't like confrontation.. She always takes my side when I'm being reasonable (ok, sometimes they annoy me for admittedly silly reasons), but she has a more "they are who they are" mentality. I'll have a conversation with her before the drawing the line in the sand conversation.

The last time I argued with my dad about homosexuality, I basically said, "I'm fine about discussing this topic with you if you can engage in a calm and reasonable manner about this" (obviously it was not the first time), and he had to stop himself before responding in an obviously heated and purely emotionally charged response, and that was the end of the topic.

Reminds me of the conversation I had with my dad. Luckily he isn't religious so, after 1,000 of these conversations he now says "what two people do in their own home is their business" which I'm proud of... These in-laws cling to their bibles so much that any contrary opinion is an assault to their god given values, and I must be the antichrist (or a whiny bitch with NYC values). You're right, the debates never end with them widening their horizons - I just come off as a dick for being offended by bigotry. I keep on trying to keep my mouth shut but anger issues mixed with the NYC in me just makes my blood boil with hate, around hate.

 

[zerocool84]

I don't talk to one of my brothers that I used to be close to because he decided his girlfriend now current fiancée was more important than our family.

 

[slackerinabox]

I don't talk to one of my brothers that I used to be close to because he decided his girlfriend now current fiancée was more important than our family.

Just being the devil's advocate - but my wife is more important to me than my family. My wife and kids *are* my family, everyone else relatives. Does that make sense? Unless he's being a dick, of course he's going to take her side/show a preference to her - she let's him put it in her!

 

[olds]

Negative influences are negative influences. Assholes are assholes. Income, social status, religion, political leaning, race, none of these are valid reasons for being a hateful bigot as there is no valid reason for such attitudes.

Tell grandma and grandpa that if they want to spend time with their grandchildren they can leave their hate at the door or not come around at all. It is not the ideal situation but we make due with what we are presented in life. And remember, we can still love someone and hate them at the same time.

/thread

 

[mikeymikec]

It's worth a try. The problem is that they always get really offended or "I have the right to my own opinion!," and somehow can't seem that bigotry isn't an opinion that's up for debate in 2016.. But I'll try.

"Yes, you have your right to your own opinion, but since we've established what each of our opinions is, we've argued about it and we still hold the same positions, what's the point in continuing to talk about it? Furthermore, what's the point in talking about it in front of my children, were you hoping for an enlightened debate stance from a 4 year old?"

If they persist: "While you have the right to your opinion, you don't have the right to educate my child."

My wife's an absolute wonderful woman and cries at gay weddings just like I do (call me reductive but I feel that gay and trans people have a bravery that I admire), she's not like them at all.. BUT, she doesn't like confrontation.. She always takes my side when I'm being reasonable (ok, sometimes they annoy me for admittedly silly reasons), but she has a more "they are who they are" mentality. I'll have a conversation with her before the drawing the line in the sand conversation.

Hmm, potentially problematic. Make sure that whatever path you two end up taking, that you're taking it together and that she's not grudgingly agreeing with your opinion on what route to take.

Reminds me of the conversation I had with my dad. Luckily he isn't religious so, after 1,000 of these conversations he now says "what two people do in their own home is their business" which I'm proud of... These in-laws cling to their bibles so much that any contrary opinion is an assault to their god given values, and I must be the antichrist (or a whiny bitch with NYC values). You're right, the debates never end with them widening their horizons - I just come off as a dick for being offended by bigotry. I keep on trying to keep my mouth shut but anger issues mixed with the NYC in me just makes my blood boil with hate, around hate.

Of course, you keeping your cool and planning what you have to say in advance is a pretty important thing to do as well And don't get trolled by some "tolerating intolerance is good" bullshit.

Throw the point in reverse if need be, how would they feel if they had children at an impressionable age and you were trying to indoctrinate their children into thinking being gay was OK, under the guise of "free speech"? Perhaps that's a bad idea, because I don't think this is the time for an argument, it's simply to secure an agreement: You don't agree on this topic, both sides have said their piece and there's nothing more to it than that, it's purely a question of what you're OK with your kids being exposed to.

It probably will end ugly, but I would keep it as brief as possible so that emotions don't have the chance to flare too much.

 

[Stopsignhank]

OP, I agree with you. However I would look at it a different way. I think it is more important to talk to your kids about how some people can have different opinions. I would tell my kids, Uncle Bob thinks it is bad that beards touch, however we don't think that way. We don't care if beards touch.

A story that makes me happy about my daughter. Here in CA, there was an anti-gay marriage proposition on the ballot, Prop 8. On Halloween my daughter said that they did not trick or treat at any house that had a "yes on Prop 8" sign.

 

[skyking]

Negative influences are negative influences. Assholes are assholes. Income, social status, religion, political leaning, race, none of these are valid reasons for being a hateful bigot as there is no valid reason for such attitudes.

Tell grandma and grandpa that if they want to spend time with their grandchildren they can leave their hate at the door or not come around at all. It is not the ideal situation but we make due with what we are presented in life. And remember, we can still love someone and hate them at the same time.

I agree with this too.
You need to look at this statement you made.

Honestly, I also worry about the socio-economic influence: the majority of them are factory workers or less, and live in trailers or with their aging parents - is it wrong to think "well, we have good relationships with the ambitious family members, Maybe I don't want my kids to ever see how low their Dna can go?" Especially the women- they're universally very wide, very unambitious, and feed their kids pepsi in sippy cups..

Don't be them. This passing of judgement by you is not healthy either. People are people, and assholes are assholes.
Don't let this superior social status affect your kids. It really is no different than them bashing on gays, it is still bashing.

 

[Charmonium]

It depends on how much control you have over the situation. If they can drop by any time they want, that makes things more difficult. Then if you want to ditch them you have to actually threaten them with calling the police or something if they come over any more. So there's cutting people off and then there's burning every last bridge. Some things are revocable and some aren't.

I suggest that you look at it from a purely practical point of view. Are these people useful to you in any way. It's pretty clear that they're more trouble than their worth, but are there any situations you can foresee where it might be in your best interest to be on good terms with them?

If not, I'd do whatever makes my life easiest. I ditched my relatives a long time ago and while I might occasionally have some regrets, it's only in a very few instances and never for very long.

 

[skyking]

I forget to mention or agree that you and your spouse need to be in complete agreement.
That's the one thing I can take away from 30 years together, you have to be your spouse's ally, especially when it comes to family. Don't risk getting on two sides over family, it really sucks.

 

[slackerinabox]

I agree with this too.
You need to look at this statement you made.


Don't be them. This passing of judgement by you is not healthy either. People are people, and assholes are assholes.
Don't let this superior social status affect your kids. It really is no different than them bashing on gays, it is still bashing.

I agree with you, that's why I feel *very* guilty for judging their trailer lives, and have been really empathetic in the past (buying their kids 'just because' gifts, taking the time to learn about their interests when they don't care to ask about mine, etc.), but a cynical part of me wonders why? Like part of my blood family are literally hobo gypsy types - frivolous lawsuits, rip off the government types. While I try not to judge them, I really worry that being around them will trigger "you know, staying home and collecting disability is easier than working" thoughts in my kids heads, so I just avoid them. I don't actively judge them because I just don't see them and removed them from my life.

Also, I think it's ok to judge people for their choices (and not for the way they were born) - so much of my inlaw's hardship is the result of some awful decisions, is it wrong to judge that? I mean, one married an obvious horrible man who ended up trying to sell their daughter on the black market! I feel bad, but that marriage had bad judgement written all over it (he ended up stealing all of her money and running, leaving her in a trailer with 2 kids). Is it wrong to judge that she knowingly put her kids at risk because of her own horrible judgement?

 

[skyking]

Those are fine adult thoughts that your kids will form on their own. Raise them right and they will see things the way they are. Raising them with this bias is the same as raising them with distaste for the icky gays. No different. No less reprehensible.
As to the original question you need to work this out with your wife.

 

[slackerinabox]

Those are fine adult thoughts that your kids will form on their own. Raise them right and they will see things the way they are. Raising them with this bias is the same as raising them with distaste for the icky gays. No different. No less reprehensible.
As to the original question you need to work this out with your wife.

I hear you and you're right, I think I'm throwing judgement their way because nearly every word out of their mouths is judgement against one group or another. They also constantly tease me about being a city boy, which I was fine with as gentle teasing at first, but now it rubs me the wrong way. I suppose I'll grudgingly agree that my attitude is wrong and shouldn't be passed down to my kids, but I do disagree that disliking people for making bad decisions is fundamentally different than judging someone for the way they were born (it's still judgmental, you're right, but different)

For the record I've never verbally judged their poverty, other than 'if they're struggling so much she should get a job since her kid's in school!," which I think is ok for a kid to overhear.

 

[Greenman]

It's ok to discriminate, it's ok to not like a group of people because of their culture, religious beliefs, or life style. Even if those people are family. Call them stupid or trailer trash or whatever else works to make you comfortable with your decision. It doesn't really matter what the justification is, cling to whatever story lets you sleep at night.

 

[Skel]

The best part (or worst) of being an adult is the only bonds that are unbreakable are the ones you chose to be. Just because someone shares DNA or any other situation means fuck all to where you end up. If these people bother you, either confront the situation and speak very plan to them on what your issue is and what your needs are (and be very clear with yourself what they are before hand) and let them chose what path to take, or just move on.

Also, make sure to include your partner in whatever you're thinking as they're effected by this as well and I'm sure have needs that must also be fulfilled.

 

[slackerinabox]

OP, I agree with you. However I would look at it a different way. I think it is more important to talk to your kids about how some people can have different opinions. I would tell my kids, Uncle Bob thinks it is bad that beards touch, however we don't think that way. We don't care if beards touch.

A story that makes me happy about my daughter. Here in CA, there was an anti-gay marriage proposition on the ballot, Prop 8. On Halloween my daughter said that they did not trick or treat at any house that had a "yes on Prop 8" sign.

Good on your family and your daughter! I agree that communication and intelligent debate are very important to counter hate, but here's the tricky stickler: Our pre-verbal daughter looks exactly like that side of the family, and they def. cling onto her as one of them. My big fear is that she'll make the same connection - "they have eyes like mine, they're white(r) than my sister like me..." and I worry that closeness will make their attitude rub off on her. In fact, we joke about how she was a little racist out of the womb! There was a phase when everytime darkie me walked into the room she'd scream and shout in an almost "stay away from my purse!" manner until she saw my facial features and realized it was daddy. I don't know about nature/nurture, but my fear that allowing a connection, even with my constant interjection, could lead to "dad's an over sensitive uppity ass, g'ma's right. and I love 4,000 calorie meals too!" Does that make sense or is it just paranoia? I say this mostly because my wife is so very cool and progressive, while her sister who looks just like her bigot gma has said some pretty awful things around me. I believe it's from that family taking a preference to her because she looks like them, and they put more effort into indoctrinating her with their values (subconsciously).

In other words, I'm thinking draw a line in the sand and remove access to the kids if they don't comply is my only recourse...

 

[local]

I feel your pain. We have had to tell my in-laws repeatedly to stop ranting about black people and using the N word every time they see them. They use the same excuse that "It is my opinion." They didn't used to be like this and now that my oldest are 2.5 they are picking up on any word someone says around them. Hell, my mother-in-law just got fired from work for going on a racist rant against a coworker and she is proud that she got fired for "Putting that N in her place."

We have had to give them an ultimatum that if they don't stop then we will simply not allow them to take the kids anymore, which they do almost every week. I think we are slowly getting them to pay attention to what they say but the day that one of my kids start using any kind of special names for black people I am going to lose my shit.

 

[slackerinabox]

I feel your pain. We have had to tell my in-laws repeatedly to stop ranting about black people and using the N word every time they see them. They use the same excuse that "It is my opinion." They didn't used to be like this and now that my oldest are 2.5 they are picking up on any word someone says around them. Hell, my mother-in-law just got fired from work for going on a racist rant against a coworker and she is proud that she got fired for "Putting that N in her place."

We have had to give them an ultimatum that if they don't stop then we will simply not allow them to take the kids anymore, which they do almost every week. I think we are slowly getting them to pay attention to what they say but the day that one of my kids start using any kind of special names for black people I am going to lose my shit.

Exactly! My 4 year old can be reasoned with, but my 2 year old is a vacuum of influence - man, did it take me forever to untrain her from saying 'shit' because it's my curse of choice.

Ultimatum makes sense. I had one with my own family because my dad's an ass and call my mom idiot, etc. around them - I told him they'll never, ever see them if he keeps it up: two days after the tooth and nail argument they call me as if nothing happened with a very different tone, because they miss their grandkids and knew I was right in the end.

 

[HeXen]

You can't like everyone and not everyone can like you. Opinions, beliefs, even mannerisms...personally I cut off anyone I don't like including my own family. I already cut off my step son and his g/f. Since they have to be around at times, I just completely ignore them and go on about my business.

 

[Leyawiin]

The example you put forth in the home is a lot more powerful that a few hour/day visit by relatives to your children. They're not going to throw out everything you teach them because grandpa/grandma are bigots and come around to show it every now and then. The important thing is to consider your wife in this equation. If she wants to continue a relationship with your inlaws you're pretty much stuck. They're her family and she has a right to see them if she wishes.

As far as passing judgment on her extended family because they're fat, poor, give their kids Pepsi and have little ambition sounds a bit bigoted anyway. To not want your kids to be around "that socio-economic influence" also sounds a bit elitist.

I'm not dismissing your concerns, but basically you've just described what a lot of people think about their inlaws. Its often a relationship fraught with friction, but as long as you're married you are probably going to have to put up with them.

 

[Muse]

I figure it's OK to just not see those people if it gives you the willies. At the very least I think you should give the red-neckers an ultimatum and tell them that they have to stop making those comments in front of your kids or you will simply refuse to expose your kids to them in the future (which could include you, why not?).

I'm from a much different family. Nobody acts like that, period. They are all well educated, it's wonderful seeing all of them, no exception. Now, I broke off from them for 20 years, didn't see any of them, but it was my problem, not theirs.

Whatever you do, don't feel guilty.

 

[Captante]

I agree with most of whats been said here. :thumbsup:

And let me add ... you don't get to choose your family.