Cyberpunk 2077

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kurosaki

Senior member
Feb 7, 2019
258
250
86
This will be a long one but... not much else I can do.

Not sure what's been the perception for this specific portion of the game yet, since I've avoided reading entire reviews to allow myself to make up my own mind about the game on my own. But now that I'm about 35 hours in, and after doing a lot of quests (of all types) and been to I believe 4 Districts and basically finishing the entire Watson quests, side quests and gigs content (with the exception of the 'ongoing operations' icons) there's definitely that one aspect, that 'branch' of the game that is absolutely showing its limitations.

There would be a novel to type on this, and I know I could but... I'll try to make it as concise and short as I can (but yeah, I can't simply do that).

The Crowd / Pedestrian / General Population System of this game, is what this is about.

Sort of a 'preface' first. This is Cyberpunk, and the way that Night City was basically described to us from all those interviews, previews, demonstrations and other media coverage of the game during development was basically telling the story of a very harsh place to live in (or even just visit). That Night City in this Cyberpunk universe (especially that Night City of the year 2077), despite its gargantuan size of a city - and in part actually 'due' to that fact - is inhabited by a very materialistic, individualistic population obsessed with augmentations, cyberware and their own visions of what being a human means (or does not mean) at this point.

And beyond this vision of a "Digital Society 3.0" there's the inevitable disconnection that ensues from said inhabitants from their very base human "nature" and soul, the core values taking a deep dive in a landfill somewhere along the process. It's a population that gets easily triggered out of nothing (think today's generation but on an order of magnitude higher, if that can be imagined), that wouldn't hesitate to push you out of their way, or take out a gun to shoot your face simply because they dislike your hairstyle since it doesn't fit with your jacket.

They portrayed us a Night City that would make you tremble in anxiety and apprehension just for going out of your apartment for a walk or to do basic errands. In fact, that in-game TV show with the Ziggy Q guy I believe, there's one episode where he interviews an NCPD Spokesperson (the woman officer) and if I recall correctly it was in that episode where Ziggy asks about when would it be finally 'safe' in Night City just to go to the mall and not having to carry a gun just to do that and have a chance to survive the trip.

Basically, in Night City, there's supposed to be aggressiveness and violence within the population either very clear-as-day or at the very least waiting to jump at you (or anyone else) from the various nooks, crannies and dark alleys of this incredibly dense metropolis. There should be people randomly going bunkers in plain day time for seemingly no reason, we should be witnessing scenes of decadence and thuggery, of someone's personal problems being displayed with bullet holes on the wall behind him.

And none of this is based off of some magical, out-of-the-blue unrealistic 'expectations' that I would have forged for myself. This is merely how, essentially (but there's more nuance to just saying this) Night City was advertised. That it is a tough place, you either die young and forgotten floating in a pool of mud somewhere in a landfill, or it's forging you in one badass Mothrfker that nobody would dare messing with if you can survive the place for even just 5 years. You either fight for your 'credibility' and notoriety and make your place, or you're a nobody selling hotdogs at a food stand at some Megabuilding entrance for your whole life there.

I could keep going with this and I did say it'd be tough to just describe all this with a small post. But I assure you I'm still trying to condense all this as I type, and I just can't, really.

So where do I go with all this? Well there's very few other ways for me to put it, other than to say it in either 1 of 2 ways total:

1) Where IS Night City, in Night City?
2) Where IS the 'Night City Population' that we've been told of all those years?

In other words...

The Night City populace is some of the most ORDERLY, calm and nonchalant I've seen in any other open world and remotely similar game setting out there.

Most of the things I've observed that basically do NOT happen in Night City:

- Where are the random shootouts? (I'll elaborate on this one).
- Where are the Cyberpsychos attacking Peds and/or Police officers and/or Gang members?
- Where are the common low-level thieves and thugs on the streets?
- No one is ever trying to try and 'steal a woman's purse' to use a typical example (it this case, it could be some gizmo or device, or some Braindance headset, just use your imagination)
- Not one Pedestrian is ever getting hit by accident by a car, ever.
- No cars on the road ever zig zag around (to mimmic a drunk or drugged driver) causing problems, accidents or traffic jams.
- No one ever tries to just cross the street on a red light.
- All drivers have the utmost respect and care for the Pedestrians (repetition but, no car accidents, drivers always horn and never rush ahead if a Ped is in the way).
- No one ever seemingly grabs something at a vendor stall and runs away (where you'd for instance then hear the vendor yell something like "Hey! You didn't pay!!").
- No one ever have the slightest signs of interest towards each others in any possible way, be it positive, neutral or negative; even when they 'bump' into each others (and they do that all the time).
- No one crossing the street, running at someone with a sword out for unknown reasons (just an example of people losing their mind for the smallest possible reasons you can imagine, IF there's a reason).

- No random fires, be it a car fire, a random Gang-made roadblock with tire fires, barrel fires, whatever you can think of. And you know why? I suppose the population is aware that there's no actual firefighting force in Night City so they're very mindful and careful about that, doing their best to ensure that there's never any fire erupting anywhere. Can you imagine what they'd have to do if a fire ever popped up? The actual neighborhood would probably have to pay some Mega corporation to send drones to drop water bombs on location; otherwise suck it, let the fire burn whatever it's burning.

- No "ambulances" around, ever. So, if a pedestrian in that game world was to get injured in some way (ironically they really cannot get injured anyway as it is) then what do they do? Crawl in pain to the nearest Ripperdoc? Let me guess, _everyone_ in Night City are on their own unless they have insurance with Trauma Team?

- No NCPD patrol cars on the roads. I'm not inventing this, in my 35+ hours of gameplay I haven't seen a SINGLE one actually circulating in the traffic. The only ones I see are the stationary, scripted / fixed ones at specific street corners or other locations.

- In fact, regarding the NCPD, where ARE the police car chases, or the on-foot police officers pursuits on the streets? There's none. Let that sink in. There's no random police interventions in Night City. IN NIGHT CITY.

- No clear signs of actual Public Transportation happening in this City. Where are the "Taxis" / Cabs for the general population? There's no Bus system in this game, no Subway system on surface level (by that I mean outside of looking up and occasionally seeing a tramway on the tracks above going between the buildings). So in this City, how do they travel in general? No wonder why there's so many on the streets just walking and seemingly just doing that all day long. And, side note, yes I know about the 'Cab' service, Delamain (or whatever the name is), but that is appearant for US, the players. The actual Pedestrian system isn't using that "service" nor does the game want to make it sound to the player that the population is even aware of it (outside of the Delamain-related quests, on the streets in general).

I could keep on going on this one just in regards to this completely butchered and wasted vision of Night City they gave us.

In general, what we have, is a very orderly and exemplary metropolis population behavior. And this is 500% contradictory and opposite to what, and HOW Night City was 'supposed to be and feel' like. The city's "soul" and character, so to speak, is entirely missing.

If I want to be very generous (and I'll be) I'll say what the inhabitants actually CAN do in this game, and generally indeed do happen to do and never miss on the opportunity to execute it:

- They walk around, a lot. This is the main activity in Night City for the majority of the population.
- They bump against each others every couple meters, after all, it's a super dense population and the walkways are so small; gotta have to bump into people.
- They respect the red light and never cross the street. When it says "Don't Walk... Don't Walk... Don't Walk..." guess what they do? They certainly OBEY THE F_ OUT of that. It's very mindful population.
- They sometimes stop in their track and stop by a bench to sit on it (that's probably what took them an extra year to work on; must have been tough to come up with that one).
- They sometimes stop at a vendor stand and seemingly peruse items.

And... hummm... did I miss something? I think that's about it? When you step outside of your apartment in this game, that's about as much you'll get out of the Peds.

Now before I continue, main points having been delivered, I want to be very clear here:

The actual stuff they worked on for the crowd system DOES make it VERY impressive to look at. I mean this purely on a technical level. With the crowd density setting at 'High', going at a very busy street intersection and seeing that many pedestrians flowing about their 'routine' IS, genuinely, a remarkable thing to watch. That's because even at that 'crude', basic level of pedestrian behavior, I cannot think of another similar game where THAT part of the other game would have been equally good. I can give credits where due for that part of their crowd system. I am aware, it must have been difficult to create in the first place.

BUT, with that being said, here's the thing...

This isn't Grand Theft Auto, it's Cyberpunk, set in Night City. And we have, basically, NO RANDOM EVENTS to witness.

I did mention above at near the beginning that I would elaborate on at least the 'random shootouts' part. Because I know, some people will point at the ones that they came across, but I hope that if you came across some of those, that you realize what they truly are. And I'll explain right here, and right now. The seemingly "random shootouts" that do occasionally occur, are in fact quite simply scripted events. They are set to happen at specific, pre-designated locations, and when you happen to pass close to one such location, there's a chance that a shootout will 'spawn' there (and I believe if you intervene and kill all the enemies there, the same "event" will re-spawn with the same enemies the next in-game day; I do believe from my experience that it is a once-per-day-per-location type of thing). And here I'm specifically referring to the 'events' that appear exclusively on the Mini Map when you're close enough. The icon on the Mini Map looks similar to a blue star, and there's a circular 'ping' effect coming out of that icon on the map.

Well, those specific shootouts only involve one out of two possible scenarios:

1) Gang members Vs rival Gang members.
2) Gang members and/or 'random thugs / scavengers' Vs NCPD forces.

And that. Is. It.

So in my list of things above that basically 'don't happen' in this game, when I said that there's no shootouts, it was in reference specifically to the CROWD doing that sort of thing, just in the general population.

Now let's just imagine the type of scenario one could at least very feasibly imagine would happen in the actual 'real' as-advertised Night City.

- You come out of your apartment, and you hear what seems like 1 or 2 gunshots coming from either the floor above, or below; but you're a Merc and have things to do, you move on.
- As you walk down the stairs and move towards the elevator, you hear a few people behind somewhere screaming in fear and calling for help "My GOD someone just got shot here!!"
- That's fine, just another afternoon in Night City. You go down the main floor and move on your way out of your lovely Megabuilding H10; on your way out, there's a heated dispute between a vendor and a consumer, it's random, comes out of nowhere for you but you keep moving on.
- You get out of your building and so far, "so good", as "so far so good" as that can be and mean in Night City. Other than the Peds moving about and the probable attempts-to-steal something in the making in someone's mind nearby you don't sense any immediate danger and call your car.
- You get in your car and set to Lizzie's Bar.
- On your way there about 2 or 3 streets later you suddenly hear police sirens and gunshots, you go 3rd person view to see what's going on and notice there's a random shootout and a car chase between NCPD and some thugs shooting in all directions, Peds included. But you decide not to intervene and just go on as much as you can just avoiding the other panicked drivers around who probably squish some more Peds in their own attempt to save their skin outta there.
- You finally arrive, get out of your car in the parking and get to your destination.

The next day (be it real life, or in-game), if you were to repeat that same thing, going to the same place and taking the same path on the same streets, you'd experience something completely different. Maybe that time 'random events' would have been more spaced out in frequency and/or space, making it seem more rare and one of those "Lucky Night City Days" where for some reason people seem to behave maybe one or two extra hours more than the usual. But it's also possible that you'd have encountered maybe the same number of events, but they would have been different ones altogether.

You know what's sort of funny but also painful to think of as I type this? At the beginning of the game after I first got out of my apartment, I turned left (on the same floor) and just walked toward that corridor. As I did, an 'event' (but scripted, as a tutorial) appeared as a pop-up window, "warning" me that Night City sees all sorts of things going on and that me as a player I'd get to choose to intervene or not intervene. When the pop-up closed I witnessed what was used as the example in the form of just a random girl, on her knees, seemingly being intimidated and then clearly beaten by some guy standing in front of her (who slapped her just before I got close to them both), shouting at her about how he's the boss and she's supposed to do this and that. I broke the guy's neck and that was it. Then I thought "Ah nice, I can't wait to see that sort of stuff happening around!".

It never happened again.

It makes me wonder, as they were making the game - obviously so - they were even supervised by the man himself, Mike Pondsmith. Was he shown that one tutorial-style random event example one day and he walked out satisfied of the devs' representation of his beloved Night City vision? I genuinely cannot understand what happened during development for that very specific branch of the game. Because, truly, outside of the fact that their crowd system IS - on a technical level - very impressive; it is just as equally lifeless, boring, and the best imaginable contradiction to Night City as one could have thought of.
Awesome rundown. I think the issues you have pointed out are valid, but, GTA V is a game that has had 10 years of Polish, after initial release. We can only hop for them to give the game even more love through the year, but I guess they just had to release it at some point, then start with the bugfixing. Exploding tires, or better Ped AI -or physics I guess come in the third hand here. Does a lot for the feeling of actually being in a living town though. Seem like Night City is more of zombie city, also saw quite a good rundown comparing GTA V and CP2077.

 

KentState

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2001
8,397
393
126
I'd like to see this up against Witcher 3. That's more telling of how far CDPR came in the last decade of open world development.

As far as other studios, Rockstar and even Ubisoft do a much better job of giving the world some life. Then again, they have dozens of games between them so they aren't starting from scratch.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,333
5,449
136
Off topic: Anyone have the oddity that this thread doesn't show up in their watched threads? I tried unwatch, and then watch again. It still does show up.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,241
638
126
Off topic: Anyone have the oddity that this thread doesn't show up in their watched threads? I tried unwatch, and then watch again. It still does show up.
I use tapatalk and mostly reply through my phone. Whenever I post I get a pop up asking if I want to add the thread to my subscribed threads or my watch list. So far this one shows up under my participated threads tab in the app. I haven't logged in to the forum website on pc in a while.

Now that I've gotten a bit better fps I've been playing some more on pc. Excellent points made above about the world and Night City itself. It's not like RDR2 in terms of any random events or gta for that matter.

Aside from the several shootings between gangs or police that I've seen, I haven't experienced any other random encounters. Its also pretty different from witcher 3 in the 3-4 side missions I have done so far. I'm very early on still so maybe they get more interesting?

I do wonder why it's so intensive to run this game when you have the world around you pretty much just being a template. Compared to for example RDR2, AI had their own routines and such. Seems like here the game is just intense on visuals but not actual functionality that would actually make it more complex and give it a reason for it being the next pc game benchmark.

Also I'm having a difficult time interacting with the menus at 3440x1440. They are cut off and some of the tips and stuff aren't showing up. This also affects the hacking too. Not sure how to fix this.
 
Last edited:

Igo69

Senior member
Apr 26, 2015
723
104
106
I think i am postponing my game play since there are more updates coming soon ill just wait and start over.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,241
638
126
I hope they fix the resolution scaling of the menus.

Maybe the next couple updates will also improve some performance? I'd like to stay in the 50 fps range rather than 40 at my native 3440 resolution.

Although I'm 99% certain the next set of updates will be focused on fixing the base console version of the game. Since their apology statement to consumers this morning.

 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,333
5,449
136
Just an FYI: It looks like the game is not using AMD SMT. There is a quick hex edit to fix it https://videocardz.com/newz/cyberpunk-2077-gets-fps-boost-with-a-patch-for-amd-ryzen-cpus

Tom Hardware tests the fix:

TLDR: 5600X gets faster with fix, 5950X gets slower.


Cool glitch

Sweet.
 
Reactions: DAPUNISHER

Zenoth

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2005
5,196
197
106
Awesome rundown. I think the issues you have pointed out are valid, but, GTA V is a game that has had 10 years of Polish, after initial release. We can only hop for them to give the game even more love through the year, but I guess they just had to release it at some point, then start with the bugfixing. Exploding tires, or better Ped AI -or physics I guess come in the third hand here. Does a lot for the feeling of actually being in a living town though. Seem like Night City is more of zombie city, also saw quite a good rundown comparing GTA V and CP2077.


I assure you, it's not just GTA5 that has a better Pedestrian system than Cyberpunk; and on a side note GTA5 at release had Pedestrians doing more stuff in general. Its crowd / pedestrian system didn't get to the point where it's at after 10 years of polish. In fact I can recall random events happening in GTA3 on the PS2, they simply added more over the following titles. In the 'original' ones (the GTA3 series) I believe it was San Andreas that contained the highest variation of random events (Vice City wasn't bad either). Even in GTA3 if there's a random car accident and there's a victim on the ground you'll see an ambulance arriving on the scene and the Paramedics come out of the vehicle and run toward the victim.

After that sure, it can be a domino effect and sometimes it's just ridiculous or funny. An example such as the Paramedics themselves getting hit by another car, then their ambulance exploding and then fire fighters coming in and so on; but that part is unique to GTA and it's the 'charm' of the series to some degree; again the point remains that things, some things happen in the game if you just wait at a street intersection for just 10 minutes you're bound to see something random happen. Then GTA4 did the same, just more of it, in fact there's some things that Peds / Police officers / Paramedics do in GTA4 that they don't do anymore in GTA5. There was a comparison video on YouTube someone made to that regard some time ago, showing how GTA5 was 'dumbed down' compared to GTA4.

But the main point being that Cyberpunk 2077's mindless drone population behaving in a paralyzingly boring and orderly fashion is completely inexcusable. Not only does it not fit Night City and Mike Pondsmith's vision of his universe, but it actually IS false advertising. If I put it this way: what if the developers right from the start of the development had told us "By the way, sure, we're building a huge city and visually it's going to be the most accurate representation ever made of a Cyberpunk setting in the history of video gaming; but the city's population is going to be a bunch of mindless walking drones, because if you guys think we're going to spend time actually pumping life into them you're out of your mind, fuck that shit!", would the hype and anticipation for it been this high?

So yeah, I'm extremely disappointed by CDPR, considering this was done by an experienced studio, one that oh so many already had been praising loud and clear since The Witcher 3 (and many since Witcher 2 as well); about how they are the new BioWare of our generation and then some, about how everything they've done since Witcher 2 (and mostly TW3) is pure gold. That same dev studio that clearly disposes of a FUCK ton of money to work on the damn thing for nearly EIGHT years of their life (just... think about this, it wasn't an Indie studio with just 20 guys who could only afford to work on it without any more income for one or maybe two years max). And we end up with a crowd system that is inferior to something released on the PlayStation 2? I'm seeing red when I think about this. I cannot FATHOM what happened during the making of this game in regard to this part of it. WHO the hell in the studio supervised this?! WHO thought that this system, crude as it is, was fine?!

I don't know how many of you here genuinely remember this, but I'll refresh minds just in case. We've been told all the way back two and a half years ago during E3 2018 that Cyberpunk 2077 was - already back then - CONTENT COMPLETE, and that the only things left to do were basically polishing and bugs fixing. Then at E3 2019, they said the same thing BUT... oh, magic, they announce a new District, the Badlands - which was NOT ever spoken of one year prior, period. Yes, SIX Districts was the final and constant word for the longest time. So between sometime in 2018 (after E3) and the following year's E3, they decided to work on a new District, so the game was not "content complete". But guess what? They said the exact same thing indeed during E3 2019; they 'assured' us once more that the game was content complete. Then they announced there that they felt very confident that they could release it for April 2020.

Obviously, all of it was a pure and simple lie to calm the crowd; while internally they were still working on it because, no shit, it was not 'complete'. VERY far from that.

So anyway, I know that all this is terrible to see. That yet another studio out there fucks it up, and that the beloved CDPR is a new victim of ridicule. But there's REASONS for this and they are very valid, and understandable. Just HOW, how is this possible? $200+ million budget, some of the best artists in the industry, and a 'different' studio mentality, one that prioritizes quality over quantity and isn't afraid to 'delay until it's done', and we end up with... THIS? And I feel so very bad for the console version owners out there whom are experiencing some of the big glitches and issues that have been shown and reported (most of which aren't found in the PC version for most). Were CDPR the victim of their ambitions for this one? Or did something somewhere just went wrong in the management and production department? Were the artists and coders properly communicated the vision of Mike Pondsmith's world?

If we can say that a game was 'rushed out' after being worked on for close to eight years, then I truly believe there's simply something wrong in this industry. But it truly is the case and I cannot believe it. This game was not complete, was barely tested (if at all) and STILL needed at least 1 or maybe 2 years of work to be released. This is remarkably sad.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,241
638
126
I assure you, it's not just GTA5 that has a better Pedestrian system than Cyberpunk; and on a side note GTA5 at release had Pedestrians doing more stuff in general. Its crowd / pedestrian system didn't get to the point where it's at after 10 years of polish. In fact I can recall random events happening in GTA3 on the PS2, they simply added more over the following titles. In the 'original' ones (the GTA3 series) I believe it was San Andreas that contained the highest variation of random events (Vice City wasn't bad either). Even in GTA3 if there's a random car accident and there's a victim on the ground you'll see an ambulance arriving on the scene and the Paramedics come out of the vehicle and run toward the victim.

After that sure, it can be a domino effect and sometimes it's just ridiculous or funny. An example such as the Paramedics themselves getting hit by another car, then their ambulance exploding and then fire fighters coming in and so on; but that part is unique to GTA and it's the 'charm' of the series to some degree; again the point remains that things, some things happen in the game if you just wait at a street intersection for just 10 minutes you're bound to see something random happen. Then GTA4 did the same, just more of it, in fact there's some things that Peds / Police officers / Paramedics do in GTA4 that they don't do anymore in GTA5. There was a comparison video on YouTube someone made to that regard some time ago, showing how GTA5 was 'dumbed down' compared to GTA4.

But the main point being that Cyberpunk 2077's mindless drone population behaving in a paralyzingly boring and orderly fashion is completely inexcusable. Not only does it not fit Night City and Mike Pondsmith's vision of his universe, but it actually IS false advertising. If I put it this way: what if the developers right from the start of the development had told us "By the way, sure, we're building a huge city and visually it's going to be the most accurate representation ever made of a Cyberpunk setting in the history of video gaming; but the city's population is going to be a bunch of mindless walking drones, because if you guys think we're going to spend time actually pumping life into them you're out of your mind, fuck that shit!", would the hype and anticipation for it been this high?

So yeah, I'm extremely disappointed by CDPR, considering this was done by an experienced studio, one that oh so many already had been praising loud and clear since The Witcher 3 (and many since Witcher 2 as well); about how they are the new BioWare of our generation and then some, about how everything they've done since Witcher 2 (and mostly TW3) is pure gold. That same dev studio that clearly disposes of a FUCK ton of money to work on the damn thing for nearly EIGHT years of their life (just... think about this, it wasn't an Indie studio with just 20 guys who could only afford to work on it without any more income for one or maybe two years max). And we end up with a crowd system that is inferior to something released on the PlayStation 2? I'm seeing red when I think about this. I cannot FATHOM what happened during the making of this game in regard to this part of it. WHO the hell in the studio supervised this?! WHO thought that this system, crude as it is, was fine?!

I don't know how many of you here genuinely remember this, but I'll refresh minds just in case. We've been told all the way back two and a half years ago during E3 2018 that Cyberpunk 2077 was - already back then - CONTENT COMPLETE, and that the only things left to do were basically polishing and bugs fixing. Then at E3 2019, they said the same thing BUT... oh, magic, they announce a new District, the Badlands - which was NOT ever spoken of one year prior, period. Yes, SIX Districts was the final and constant word for the longest time. So between sometime in 2018 (after E3) and the following year's E3, they decided to work on a new District, so the game was not "content complete". But guess what? They said the exact same thing indeed during E3 2019; they 'assured' us once more that the game was content complete. Then they announced there that they felt very confident that they could release it for April 2020.

Obviously, all of it was a pure and simple lie to calm the crowd; while internally they were still working on it because, no shit, it was not 'complete'. VERY far from that.

So anyway, I know that all this is terrible to see. That yet another studio out there fucks it up, and that the beloved CDPR is a new victim of ridicule. But there's REASONS for this and they are very valid, and understandable. Just HOW, how is this possible? $200+ million budget, some of the best artists in the industry, and a 'different' studio mentality, one that prioritizes quality over quantity and isn't afraid to 'delay until it's done', and we end up with... THIS? And I feel so very bad for the console version owners out there whom are experiencing some of the big glitches and issues that have been shown and reported (most of which aren't found in the PC version for most). Were CDPR the victim of their ambitions for this one? Or did something somewhere just went wrong in the management and production department? Were the artists and coders properly communicated the vision of Mike Pondsmith's world?

If we can say that a game was 'rushed out' after being worked on for close to eight years, then I truly believe there's simply something wrong in this industry. But it truly is the case and I cannot believe it. This game was not complete, was barely tested (if at all) and STILL needed at least 1 or maybe 2 years of work to be released. This is remarkably sad.
I think all the delays they created before release was probably them realizing the big screw up they made advertising the game for base consoles. This game should not have released for ps4 and original xbox consoles. All that time was probably spent trying to get the game to just "run" on the old gen systems most likely.

They freaking spent more money on marketing and hyping this game to oblivion rather than QA testing and that includes testing the pc version too. I wonder how much they paid Keanu Reeves to come on stage there and announce the game lol, probably more than they should have.

It's very sad indeed but majority of the blame can be put on the higher ups who push the business decisions and deadlines. Then on the management themselves who didn't correctly manage the project throughout.
 

kurosaki

Senior member
Feb 7, 2019
258
250
86
I assure you, it's not just GTA5 that has a better Pedestrian system than Cyberpunk; and on a side note GTA5 at release had Pedestrians doing more stuff in general. Its crowd / pedestrian system didn't get to the point where it's at after 10 years of polish. In fact I can recall random events happening in GTA3 on the PS2, they simply added more over the following titles. In the 'original' ones (the GTA3 series) I believe it was San Andreas that contained the highest variation of random events (Vice City wasn't bad either). Even in GTA3 if there's a random car accident and there's a victim on the ground you'll see an ambulance arriving on the scene and the Paramedics come out of the vehicle and run toward the victim.

After that sure, it can be a domino effect and sometimes it's just ridiculous or funny. An example such as the Paramedics themselves getting hit by another car, then their ambulance exploding and then fire fighters coming in and so on; but that part is unique to GTA and it's the 'charm' of the series to some degree; again the point remains that things, some things happen in the game if you just wait at a street intersection for just 10 minutes you're bound to see something random happen. Then GTA4 did the same, just more of it, in fact there's some things that Peds / Police officers / Paramedics do in GTA4 that they don't do anymore in GTA5. There was a comparison video on YouTube someone made to that regard some time ago, showing how GTA5 was 'dumbed down' compared to GTA4.

But the main point being that Cyberpunk 2077's mindless drone population behaving in a paralyzingly boring and orderly fashion is completely inexcusable. Not only does it not fit Night City and Mike Pondsmith's vision of his universe, but it actually IS false advertising. If I put it this way: what if the developers right from the start of the development had told us "By the way, sure, we're building a huge city and visually it's going to be the most accurate representation ever made of a Cyberpunk setting in the history of video gaming; but the city's population is going to be a bunch of mindless walking drones, because if you guys think we're going to spend time actually pumping life into them you're out of your mind, fuck that shit!", would the hype and anticipation for it been this high?

So yeah, I'm extremely disappointed by CDPR, considering this was done by an experienced studio, one that oh so many already had been praising loud and clear since The Witcher 3 (and many since Witcher 2 as well); about how they are the new BioWare of our generation and then some, about how everything they've done since Witcher 2 (and mostly TW3) is pure gold. That same dev studio that clearly disposes of a FUCK ton of money to work on the damn thing for nearly EIGHT years of their life (just... think about this, it wasn't an Indie studio with just 20 guys who could only afford to work on it without any more income for one or maybe two years max). And we end up with a crowd system that is inferior to something released on the PlayStation 2? I'm seeing red when I think about this. I cannot FATHOM what happened during the making of this game in regard to this part of it. WHO the hell in the studio supervised this?! WHO thought that this system, crude as it is, was fine?!

I don't know how many of you here genuinely remember this, but I'll refresh minds just in case. We've been told all the way back two and a half years ago during E3 2018 that Cyberpunk 2077 was - already back then - CONTENT COMPLETE, and that the only things left to do were basically polishing and bugs fixing. Then at E3 2019, they said the same thing BUT... oh, magic, they announce a new District, the Badlands - which was NOT ever spoken of one year prior, period. Yes, SIX Districts was the final and constant word for the longest time. So between sometime in 2018 (after E3) and the following year's E3, they decided to work on a new District, so the game was not "content complete". But guess what? They said the exact same thing indeed during E3 2019; they 'assured' us once more that the game was content complete. Then they announced there that they felt very confident that they could release it for April 2020.

Obviously, all of it was a pure and simple lie to calm the crowd; while internally they were still working on it because, no shit, it was not 'complete'. VERY far from that.

So anyway, I know that all this is terrible to see. That yet another studio out there fucks it up, and that the beloved CDPR is a new victim of ridicule. But there's REASONS for this and they are very valid, and understandable. Just HOW, how is this possible? $200+ million budget, some of the best artists in the industry, and a 'different' studio mentality, one that prioritizes quality over quantity and isn't afraid to 'delay until it's done', and we end up with... THIS? And I feel so very bad for the console version owners out there whom are experiencing some of the big glitches and issues that have been shown and reported (most of which aren't found in the PC version for most). Were CDPR the victim of their ambitions for this one? Or did something somewhere just went wrong in the management and production department? Were the artists and coders properly communicated the vision of Mike Pondsmith's world?

If we can say that a game was 'rushed out' after being worked on for close to eight years, then I truly believe there's simply something wrong in this industry. But it truly is the case and I cannot believe it. This game was not complete, was barely tested (if at all) and STILL needed at least 1 or maybe 2 years of work to be released. This is remarkably sad.
I hear you and yes, probably management focusing on storyline, more than environment, like NPC's. But, Surely GTA v has gotten some refinement since release, and as you said, they have run through the idea of a city SIM since the end of the 90s. I'm sure, if cp2078 ever came out, it would be the vice city of gtas up until that point. Gta3 lacked something's as well. A solid story that immersed, bikes, graphics wasn't that splendid. I believe it's really hard setting a scope, and get it all right the first time. If we look at cp2077 as their gta3, we have come quite far. It isn't as simple as building Lego and I seriously believe that every coder did their best. But building something from the ground up, of this scale, is quite challenging.
But you're right, there is a lot more to ask, both from cdred and the GPU manufacturers, that still struggle with 4k..
 

EXCellR8

Diamond Member
Sep 1, 2010
3,982
839
136
I've played about 16 hours of this game and I still don't know how I feel about it...

+ cool graphics and abstract atmosphere/style
+ story is about what I expected but I am genuinely interested
+ pretty big map and plenty to see and do
+ characters are interesting; customization is rich
+ Keanu
+ boobies

-- fair amount of visual bugs, optimization issues
-- driving mechanics aren't great but this isn't GTA
-- RPG elements are laughably simple/basic
-- "abilities" don't do much but raise stats
-- gunplay isn't as cool, fun or fluid as you'd think
-- too many zombie NPC's and cars driving around

Also, I wasn't too upset about Jackie dying... damn guy walked into my line of fire at every possible opportunity and I felt like he was a total crutch in firefights. I thought it was cool to have a partner for some schemes but most of which you don't actually get to play. Johnny Silverdick or whatever his name is also more annoying than I thought he'd be. John Wick he is not.

Like, I want to keep playing it but I also kind of want my $60 back lol. I most likely won't refund the PC version but for as long as we waited it does seem like the game is still 6mo - year before it's polished enough for the masses. Sure, games can't stay in dev land forever and you can't keep making promises but I thought that this is what they were avoiding by delaying it again and again.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,131
30,082
146
Cool glitch


LOL, I guess we should have told them to take their time and polish the game more.


Oh man, I stumbled by a pile of cars tossed just at an underpass/club intersection in the city. They all looked like they had been thrown there, just like that car in the top video, lol. And the best part was that there were cops and a cop car standing around it, taking notes. ...which, I think, was a bug, too, but it worked perfectly, lol.

I think it's safe to say that this game has a peculiar "car-cannon-physics" problem buried away somewhere in there when your AI reaches something like whatever, 5 or 6 game miles distance, and things just go...bonkers? Dunno, but it looks like an actual thing.


That 2nd video--OK, some of those were GTA Vice City from PS2, right? I know that city map/skyline. ....but holy crap, the rest of some of those textures look like they are from Cyberpunk and....really bad. like PS2 bad. So, I think there is some funnin' going on here, but it also wouldn't surprise me if there is some pop in of low rent texture layers in the version released to this generation's red-headed step child.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
29,553
24,398
146
Oh man, I stumbled by a pile of cars tossed just at an underpass/club intersection in the city. They all looked like they had been thrown there, just like that car in the top video, lol. And the best part was that there were cops and a cop car standing around it, taking notes. ...which, I think, was a bug, too, but it worked perfectly, lol.

I think it's safe to say that this game has a peculiar "car-cannon-physics" problem buried away somewhere in there when your AI reaches something like whatever, 5 or 6 game miles distance, and things just go...bonkers? Dunno, but it looks like an actual thing.


That 2nd video--OK, some of those were GTA Vice City from PS2, right? I know that city map/skyline. ....but holy crap, the rest of some of those textures look like they are from Cyberpunk and....really bad. like PS2 bad. So, I think there is some funnin' going on here, but it also wouldn't surprise me if there is some pop in of low rent texture layers in the version released to this generation's red-headed step child.
They apologized for how bad last gen console performance is. So maybe it is as bad as it looks?


People are killing me with the characters they create. Handsome Squidward, now this -

 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
15,154
5,683
136
DF did another video on the consoles, and yes the base One is abysmally bad. Frame Rate in the 20s and below. They also got the game to completely freeze for a minute.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Awesome rundown. I think the issues you have pointed out are valid, but, GTA V is a game that has had 10 years of Polish, after initial release. We can only hop for them to give the game even more love through the year, but I guess they just had to release it at some point, then start with the bugfixing. Exploding tires, or better Ped AI -or physics I guess come in the third hand here. Does a lot for the feeling of actually being in a living town though. Seem like Night City is more of zombie city, also saw quite a good rundown comparing GTA V and CP2077.


Wow that video makes the city seem lifeless compared to GTA5 which has been out a LONG time. To be honest it’s kind of pathetic.
 

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
412
107
116
DF did another video on the consoles, and yes the base One is abysmally bad. Frame Rate in the 20s and below. They also got the game to completely freeze for a minute.

I dont understand why any of this 'news'? so 2013 hardware (and bad one at that) cant play 2021 game at high FPS? Really? Who would've thought!

i enjoy it (nomad right now , end of act 1), great writing (much than anything I have seen since at least Witcher 3) , good direction, plenty of fun, decent enough performance on my 3 year old mid range rig (Ryzen 1700 + 1080 TI). if rating, I would easily give it 90+/100.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,241
638
126
I dont understand why any of this 'news'? so 2013 hardware (and bad one at that) cant play 2021 game at high FPS? Really? Who would've thought!

i enjoy it (nomad right now , end of act 1), great writing (much than anything I have seen since at least Witcher 3) , good direction, plenty of fun, decent enough performance on my 3 year old mid range rig (Ryzen 1700 + 1080 TI). if rating, I would easily give it 90+/100.
I mean this game was marketed for ps4 and xbox when it was announced. Along the way they also said it "runs exceptionally well" when the project lead was asked about the console performance.

They should have marketed it for pc and next gen consoles only. After the first delay they honestly should have canceled the ps4 and OG xbox versions, stuck to ps5 and series X and pc.

Compare how this game runs on the old gen consoles to games like red dead 2 and last of us part 2, ghost of tsushima, none of those titles perform so bad on the systems they were targeted and announced for. I think that's where all the commotion and complaints come from.
 

EXCellR8

Diamond Member
Sep 1, 2010
3,982
839
136
While some people would have been peeved if they had axed the PS4/XBone versions that might have actually been the lesser of the evils. Sure, maybe some alphas and development builds of the game ran 'okay' on the previous gen hardware at some point but if shipping the game in that busted of a state was SURE to cause some backlash. Even with the promise of fixing some of the more severe issues it's a product that people paid for so it needs to be addressed--and they have done so but the crappy part is more waiting (unless you just do a refund now and buy the game again later).

I do believe they'll do the best they can to remedy the issues but they've also kind of opened a can of worms on this one; it could be a year until those versions are actually competent.
 

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
412
107
116
I mean this game was marketed for ps4 and xbox when it was announced. Along the way they also said it "runs exceptionally well" when the project lead was asked about the console performance.

They should have marketed it for pc and next gen consoles only. After the first delay they honestly should have canceled the ps4 and OG xbox versions, stuck to ps5 and series X and pc.

Compare how this game runs on the old gen consoles to games like red dead 2 and last of us part 2, ghost of tsushima, none of those titles perform so bad on the systems they were targeted and announced for. I think that's where all the commotion and complaints come from.

yah, and it plays ,'exceptionally well' at 30 FPS or near by , so? I thought these games are 18+ and definitely significantly above the age of those believing in tooth fairies of some fantasies that you can ignore physics and reality.
- want to play PS specials last last of us 2 , RDR2 = > have fun playing on PS platform
- want to play cross platform =>have fun playing it based on what that platform could do (including ancient Jaguar cores )
- want different experience => pay up, either for more recent hardware (Ryzen 2 cores + SSD in current gen consoles) or for good PC.

no magic. no fantasies that somehow developer 'owes' all of this super visual candy on trash hardware . don't like it => don't play it, we are all adults.
it is a product which we are free to buy or ignore. if it bothers one enough =>refund and move on, just stop with whining.
 
Reactions: Igo69

Artorias

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2014
2,146
1,431
136
I guess money talks because the game should have never been certified by Sony or Microsoft with it getting sub 25FPS performance.

Realistically it was never going to be exclusive to the new consoles. They would be loosing an astronomical amount of money as the user base for new consoles is relatively extremely low.
 

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
412
107
116
I guess money talks because the game should have never been certified by Sony or Microsoft with it getting sub 25FPS performance.

Realistically it was never going to be exclusive to the new consoles. They would be loosing an astronomical amount of money as the user base for new consoles is relatively extremely low.

yep. i dont know their sale number (was pre-order in millions) and I think read somewhere they already made the money back vs what was put into it.
as for new consoles, I think it would get there eventually just right now CDPR have bigger fish to fry (bug hunting) and consoles arent exactly widely available..
 
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