Dallas officer enters apartment she mistakes for her own, fatally shoots man inside

[Darwin333]

It is simple. We demand it. We let our politicians know that we will not stand for it any more. We demand that they pass laws, and if that fails, amend the constitution, to fix this problem. We are a democracy, the will of the people can change anything, if we can only agree on what to change.

I would absolutely LOVE to see that happen but the reality is that a shitton of people don't really think or know that there is a problem because it has never affected them. That goes ten times for the "influential" people like the big donors. Even if we could, somehow, get laws passed the unions will band together and fight tooth and nail in the courts to have them overturned because they have a contract in place. Most of them have very long periods of "if no new contract can be agreed upon this current one stays in effect for X years" so even waiting until we can negotiate a new contract could take 10-15 years.

 

[HomerJS]

I get the sense that some are shooting the messenger here. Text does not allow for sensing who the tone of the comment is directed to, but Woolfe is trying to inform and is not making a judgement on the morality of the situation. It sure seems like people are mad at him for thinking that his opinion on the defense is him taking a stand on defending the cop. I think that is a mistake on others part.

I was agreeing with wolf that this was clearly not off duty. The rest was my outrage at the PD trying to frame the victim.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Does the warrant specify only narcotics?

Yes, the search warrant specifically lists a number of items we would expect for the police to be looking for like the shell casings and then lists narcotics. The biggest problem with all this is that they made it public but has made none of the results of any of the other search warrants public. Making search warrants for an ongoing investigation public is clearly not standard procedure. That leads one to believe that it was an intentional attempt at character assassination.

 

[realibrad]

I was agreeing with wolf that this was clearly not off duty. The rest was my outrage at the PD trying to frame the victim.

Fair enough from what you said. I do think others have done it though.

I want to believe justice will be served here, but, its hard to hold out too much hope. It sure does seem like a pretty good case against her. I just hope that if she does get found guilty that it does not get turned around and we now start debating the topic of her being a woman and all the men go free.

 

[Darwin333]

Mistake MY ASS. They fucking knew she was off duty. You are correct, it gave them time to develop a cover story, sanitize her apartment and use the presence of drugs to place a level of blame on the victim. Police know because he is black it would be more likely believed he had a level of blame.

Personally I think it was more them trying to create a narrative that would get her off the hook or at the very least significantly reduce how bad it looked. They circled the wagons around her and were trying to protect one of their own. The media attention did force their hand but eventually they would have had to arrest her anyway and she was already given plenty of time to sanitize everything if needed.

Ironically if he had legally shot her for breaking into his apartment and pulling her gun he would have been arrested on the spot. He probably would have taken quite a few "accidental" falls, which would explain the bruising, then he would have been continuously grilled for 24+ hours or until he lawyered up (if they even gave a shit about letting him lawyer up "cop killers don't have rights!") to try and get him to slip up on the details from the constant grilling, going over the entire thing 100's of times and sleep deprivation. They would have treated him like a cold-blooded cop killer from the moment they arrived on the scene until he was released and who knows how long that would have taken, hell I'd give it an even chance that he would have been charged. If he was charged he would have been put through all holy hell by the legal system. Not that all of that wouldn't be a hell of lot better than being dead, just pointing out how differently they would have been treated if he legally shot her versus her illegally entering his home and killing him.

 

[KMFJD]

https://newsone.com/3827160/amber-guyger-apartment-search-warrant-dallas

 

[realibrad]

https://newsone.com/3827160/amber-guyger-apartment-search-warrant-dallas

This is where I find the root of the problem to be. Its more about power and how it effects people. Looking down upon people makes you treat them worse than you would treat your equals.

 

[Darwin333]

Here is another one, anyone want to bet that the jury won't be allowed to see them at her trial?

 

[woolfe9998]

Mistake MY ASS. They fucking knew she was off duty. You are correct, it gave them time to develop a cover story, sanitize her apartment and use the presence of drugs to place a level of blame on the victim. Police know because he is black it would be more likely believed he had a level of blame.

Wait, you're saying they found drugs at the victim's apartment?

As for the rest, "mistake my ass" is what I already said. I don't think it was a mistake because they had to know it was off duty right away and hence she wasn't entitled to whatever protections she would get under the union contract. They were clearly trying to protect her by giving her a benefit (delayed arrest) which they knew she wasn't entitled to.

 

[Darwin333]

https://newsone.com/3827160/amber-guyger-apartment-search-warrant-dallas

WTF, they never searched her apartment?!? And now they can't because she has moved out of the complex. No warrants for her phone calls, nothing. How in the hell do you shoot someone in their own home, you claim it was just a mistake, and you are allowed to freaking move before they even search your house to find out if you and the dead guy might have had more of a relationship than you stated?

 

[Darwin333]

Wait, you're saying they found drugs at the victim's apartment?

As for the rest, "mistake my ass" is what I already said. I don't think it was a mistake because they had to know it was off duty right away and hence she wasn't entitled to whatever protections she would get under the union contract. They were clearly trying to protect her by giving her a benefit (delayed arrest) which they knew she wasn't entitled to.

I do believe that it is still considered an officer-involved shooting if it happens when you are off duty. I know for sure it is treated that way if you are working a detail for a private employer on your own time. That sure as hell doesn't excuse them not arresting her on the spot or how they have handled the case so far.

 

[woolfe9998]

Newly released search warrants. Interesting:

The new warrants show investigators with the Dallas County District attorney’s office have been seeking additional video footage from surveillance cameras on townhomes across the street from the South Side Flats apartments where Jean and Guyger both lived.

Two of the warrants request doorbell video from two addresses on Arch Place. The warrants were served on “Ring,” a California-based company that provides doorbell security cameras systems.

In a third warrant, investigators are seeking security camera video from ADT Security Services, for additional camera footage from an address on Arch Place.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/N...otham-Jean-Death-Investigation-493970061.html

While I think these warrants are appropriate, something here bothers me. It seems that while the Dallas PD is recused from the investigation in favor of the state police, the Dallas DA is still involved. I assume based on this that it will be the Dallas DA making charging decisions. Why is this not going to the Texas state AG's instead? Local DA's are too close to local police.

 

[woolfe9998]

Yes, the search warrant specifically lists a number of items we would expect for the police to be looking for like the shell casings and then lists narcotics. The biggest problem with all this is that they made it public but has made none of the results of any of the other search warrants public. Making search warrants for an ongoing investigation public is clearly not standard procedure. That leads one to believe that it was an intentional attempt at character assassination.

Yeah, I just Googled and it escaped me that they found some pot in his apartment, which of course immediately became a story on Fox News. If the information is being selectively released in order to paint the victim in a bad light, that is obviously unacceptable.

My comment was about the appropriateness of the search, not as to what information was or wasn't released. I do think the search was appropriate.

Also, still troubled we haven't heard anything about them searching her apartment. If it later comes out that they did not, it's going to be a shit storm.

 

[woolfe9998]

I do believe that it is still considered an officer-involved shooting if it happens when you are off duty. I know for sure it is treated that way if you are working a detail for a private employer on your own time. That sure as hell doesn't excuse them not arresting her on the spot or how they have handled the case so far.

Officer involved is a different thing than "on the job." I haven't seen their union contract, but I highly doubt any of these protections - including delayed arrest - would apply for an incident which happened off the job. Indeed, the Dallas PD spokesperson said as much. She said they made a "mistake" initially in assuming they were supposed to follow the usual procedure, and that they realized later that the protections didn't apply because she was off duty. While I don't believe for one second they were mistaken about anything, the point is that they have admitted she was not entitled to the delayed arrest.

 

[Fern]

The new warrants show investigators with the Dallas County District attorney’s office have been seeking additional video footage from surveillance cameras on townhomes across the street from the South Side Flats apartments where Jean and Guyger both lived.

Two of the warrants request doorbell video from two addresses on Arch Place. The warrants were served on “Ring,” a California-based company that provides doorbell security cameras systems.

In a third warrant, investigators are seeking security camera video from ADT Security Services, for additional camera footage from an address on Arch Place.

I've been hoping they would do this.

Were the lights on in his apartment, contrary to the officer's assertion?

Do she first go to her apartment before going to his?

Video shot from across the street may show apartment lights on/off etc.

Fern

 

[Puffnstuff]

I want to see the truth revealed and justice served no matter where it takes us and if the popo looks bad afterwards so be it.

 

[Darwin333]

Newly released search warrants. Interesting:



https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/N...otham-Jean-Death-Investigation-493970061.html

While I think these warrants are appropriate, something here bothers me. It seems that while the Dallas PD is recused from the investigation in favor of the state police, the Dallas DA is still involved. I assume based on this that it will be the Dallas DA making charging decisions. Why is this not going to the Texas state AG's instead? Local DA's are too close to local police.

And still not a single search warrant on her that I can find.

 

[Vic]

This is where I find the root of the problem to be. Its more about power and how it effects people. Looking down upon people makes you treat them worse than you would treat your equals.

Well, apparently, she still has access to her social media and has been allowed to delete items. How many other murder suspects get to do that?
These police look down on the People because they *know* they are above the law which we task them to enforce.

 

[realibrad]

Well, apparently, she still has access to her social media and has been allowed to delete items. How many other murder suspects get to do that?
These police look down on the People because they *know* they are above the law which we task them to enforce.

That fits with what I said. Police have a us vs them mentality. The them are seen as the dangerous/violent masses while they are the arbiters of justice. That never ends well.

 

[Vic]

That fits with what I said. Police have a us vs them mentality. The them are seen as the dangerous/violent masses while they are the arbiters of justice. That never ends well.

The only way it should end is with the People restoring accountability in those who they pay to govern them.
The false dichotomy created by the police apologists is that this the price we must pay for the law and order. Which is wrong because under the rule of law, no one is ever above the law. Thus, putting the police above the law is by itself not law and order, but corruption.
And yet here we have a circumstance where (if you'll pardon me) a "lowly" beat cop is being held above the law. This should prompt us to ask ourselves, how much further above the law are her superiors? And is that not, perhaps, why they are so quick to attempt to immunize her from prosecution?

 

[realibrad]

The only way it should end is with the People restoring accountability in those who they pay to govern them.
The false dichotomy created by the police apologists is that this the price we must pay for the law and order. Which is wrong because under the rule of law, no one is ever above the law. Thus, putting the police above the law is by itself not law and order, but corruption.
And yet here we have a circumstance where (if you'll pardon me) a "lowly" beat cop is being held above the law. This should prompt us to ask ourselves, how much further above the law are her superiors? And is that not, perhaps, why they are so quick to attempt to immunize her from prosecution?

The reason they are protecting her, is because of the us vs them mentality. Cops do risk their safety and so its reasonable for them to be somewhat guarded. The problem is that what most in dangers cops is not having control of situations. The solution they found was from the military. The military picked up its methods in war, and that is very different situation than what police face. Further, we have a gun culture so any violence has the probability of becoming lethal in ways that other societies do not have. So, when a cop goes into a situation, the first thing they try to do is establish order through their authority.

The problem is that because this is not war, and they are servants of the people they are trying to serve, their military tactics cause other problems that the military does not often if ever have to deal with. Civilians are not combatants. Combatants are people that are looking to kill you any moment they see an opening, so soldiers on the battlefield need to use force to establish ultimate control. Police are not on a battlefield, but, they are also not as safe as the main populace.

Because we do not have a hybrid approach we train police to be like soldiers and instill the same mentality as if they were. This is a huge reason they have the us vs them mentality.

The reaction of society is to see how police act, and respond. Some will try to appease police, while others will not want to give up their freedoms. The problem with the first method is that people are not trained so even when they do try and follow what is asked they may run afoul and get killed as exampled by the guy that tried to grab his shorts. The problem with the 2nd is that cops seeing the people not responding to their demands see that is a threat and they increase their force to establish compliance. Both cause the vast majority of the risk to be on the civilian and they bear the brunt of of when things go badly, whereas the police with their training often displace any risk.

To hold people accountable is 100% needed, but, it cannot be in a vacuum. Police need to be trained differently. Its not civilian's fault for how police are trained, and its not their fault that police have built an us vs them mentality, but, we must understand that we have trained police to in large part be this way. This should not be a pass, but, it does need to be addressed in the long run as punishment will not fix this.

 

[FIVR]

America got by for over 100 years with any Police. Most of America didn't have any police forces until the 1900s. It was the civil war that militarized the country. So many former confederate soldiers with no prospects went around robbing and murdering and killing that the government had to act to create armed forces to stop them wherever they appeared. Then prohibition came in the 1930s and the invention of automatic weapons made people so much deadlier that we have never looked back. We are now a police state like Russia.


Hopefully one day people realize that "Police" are just government-paid muscle to protect the property of the rich and we stop paying them outright. That will never happen but I still hope it does.

 

[Vic]

The reason they are protecting her, is because of the us vs them mentality. Cops do risk their safety and so its reasonable for them to be somewhat guarded. The problem is that what most in dangers cops is not having control of situations. The solution they found was from the military. The military picked up its methods in war, and that is very different situation than what police face. Further, we have a gun culture so any violence has the probability of becoming lethal in ways that other societies do not have. So, when a cop goes into a situation, the first thing they try to do is establish order through their authority.

The problem is that because this is not war, and they are servants of the people they are trying to serve, their military tactics cause other problems that the military does not often if ever have to deal with. Civilians are not combatants. Combatants are people that are looking to kill you any moment they see an opening, so soldiers on the battlefield need to use force to establish ultimate control. Police are not on a battlefield, but, they are also not as safe as the main populace.

Because we do not have a hybrid approach we train police to be like soldiers and instill the same mentality as if they were. This is a huge reason they have the us vs them mentality.

The reaction of society is to see how police act, and respond. Some will try to appease police, while others will not want to give up their freedoms. The problem with the first method is that people are not trained so even when they do try and follow what is asked they may run afoul and get killed as exampled by the guy that tried to grab his shorts. The problem with the 2nd is that cops seeing the people not responding to their demands see that is a threat and they increase their force to establish compliance. Both cause the vast majority of the risk to be on the civilian and they bear the brunt of of when things go badly, whereas the police with their training often displace any risk.

To hold people accountable is 100% needed, but, it cannot be in a vacuum. Police need to be trained differently. Its not civilian's fault for how police are trained, and its not their fault that police have built an us vs them mentality, but, we must understand that we have trained police to in large part be this way. This should not be a pass, but, it does need to be addressed in the long run as punishment will not fix this.

It's not that I disagree with anything you're saying, it's that I believe that we need to draw a line in the sand. If Guyger gets away here without any criminal punishment, then that sets a precedent that says that any law enforcement officer, at any time, for any reason, can just walk into any one of our homes and kill any one of us.
That's not alarmism or hyperbole. Jean was in own home, doing nothing wrong, when an off-duty LEO unlawfully entered his home and killed him.
That she might get away with that freaks the fuck out of me. And I'm so white even other white people call me white. This is not okay.

 

[realibrad]

It's not that I disagree with anything you're saying, it's that I believe that we need to draw a line in the sand. If Guyger gets away here without any criminal punishment, then that sets a precedent that says that any law enforcement officer, at any time, for any reason, can just walk into any one of our homes and kill any one of us.
That's not alarmism or hyperbole. Jean was in own home, doing nothing wrong, when an off-duty LEO unlawfully entered his home and killed him.
That she might get away with that freaks the fuck out of me. And I'm so white even other white people call me white. This is not okay.

I sit on the side that believes its currently manslaughter. I also see some things that could point to this being more, but, I will hold off until I get more details. But, I think there is a fantastic case for manslaughter which should give more than enough of an alarm to other cops. Further, I also want to have justice for what has been done so far, such as letting her clean up and move.

 

[realibrad]

America got by for over 100 years with any Police. Most of America didn't have any police forces until the 1900s. It was the civil war that militarized the country. So many former confederate soldiers with no prospects went around robbing and murdering and killing that the government had to act to create armed forces to stop them wherever they appeared. Then prohibition came in the 1930s and the invention of automatic weapons made people so much deadlier that we have never looked back. We are now a police state like Russia.


Hopefully one day people realize that "Police" are just government-paid muscle to protect the property of the rich and we stop paying them outright. That will never happen but I still hope it does.

Also, for those that think I'm a troll, what do you think of this guy lol.