Dan Savage Nails Messaging

[crashtech]

Do you agree that the House Republicans must distance themselves from Trump for that to happen?

Ultimately, voters decide whether that would be the right choice. I'd say that it's hard not to distance yourself from the President if you are serious about the issues.

 

[Younigue]

Ultimately, voters decide whether that would be the right choice. I'd say that it's hard not to distance yourself from the President if you are serious about the issues.

And I believe that is what it will take for anyone outside of the fanatics of course for the House and the public to come together to at least try to work together.

Trump is a poison. Too many people on both sides of the aisle are steadfast in their thinking and won't be budged until he is removed or some how controlled OR his Administration stands against him.

 

[xthetenth]

As you define it. But not everyone falls for fast and loose interpretations of language, for instance, a wish for positive voter ID is not necessarily an eager pursuit of "disenfranchisement," no more than a reduction in the rate of growth is a "cut." But this is how language is used by propagandists to demonize their fellow countrymen.

You are the biggest problem with the current political discourse. Not buckshot and his ilk, but the people who look at that with an excuse at the ready so they can go back to patting their backs about how "independent" they are and how smart and talented they are for realizing that there's propaganda on both sides.

It's not just a wish for positive voter ID. It's a wish for positive voter ID being met by laws that do their level best to pick a set of IDs that minorities just so happen to not have easy access to (the most egregious case is some states accepting non-photo college IDs, while other states like NC which runs its colleges as a system to import young talent from other states specifically prohibit other states' drivers licenses, college IDs, and has steadily been attacking programs that make it easier for young voters to register. For the most recent election they also moved the voting places near colleges to more inconvenient locations because they didn't want a repeat of NC going for Obama.) Incidentally, the sort of vote fraud that would be stopped by voter ID laws happens in numbers well below the four digit mark, let alone what it would take to be actually relevant. The GOP is unconstrained by fact, and people support a solution to a problem that doesn't exist that just serves to give them license to cause a much bigger problem.

It's also playing with early voting days. For example, North Carolina was so breathtakingly stupid as to get caught deliberately changing early voting days to remove the ones minorities used in disproportionate numbers. The SC overturned that one. Then a bunch of counties just so happened to not have early voting on those same days (including the one I live in).

It's also gerrymandering. Take a look at NC, Virginia or Texas. Don't look at the districts the SC forced them to accept after they couldn't defend them as being anything other than racially discriminatory in court, but the ones they made. Sure are some interesting shapes there, aren't there?

It's also challenging voter enrollment, which at least in NC happened along some pretty racial lines.

I said disenfranchisement, and I meant it. Perhaps you should spend more time acquainting yourself with the facts before you decide to pretend you're so much smarter and wiser, when all you are is the proud inheritor of the people who defended literacy and civics tests with grandfather clauses that were explicitly targeted at freedmen because they didn't care to familiarize themselves with what was actually happening.

What do you suggest is done about this evil party?

Give the voting rights act its teeth back, enact districting rules that prevent gerrymanders, and let democracy take its course so they can't inflict minority rule over the country.

 

[Moonbeam]

I know I didn't dehumanize any one.

In fact I stated clearly that when Republicans are willing to work together that democrats will do so. Not because they are democrats per se but also because at this point they are under represented in the branches of Government (minority) they have few choices.

If you're asking me to be reasonable about the unreasonable... I think I am to am extent. I don't want anyone to come to harm but I do think this sub-section of believers is a problem. I know you see it.

If you have any suggestions as to how to work with those who will not be worked with please enlighten me. At this point it seems like you're suggesting dems bend to a back busting degree all under the ideal of balancing our beliefs. That can't happen.

There is a distinct difference from a life long Republican and a Trumpublican. Again, I know you see it. There is also a difference between a Republican disapproving of Trump and supporting their party AND a Republican that can see that Trump does not truly represent them and willing to fight him as well as supporting their Party. The latter are more likely to negotiate for the good of their own party and more willing to compromise because the government (the country) is full of people with differing beliefs.

I'm not sure why you want to paint all Trump haters with the same brush... and of course you don't know me but I don't dislike all Republicans even though we disagree (of course I know I'm right but I did mention I'm open-minded and I am absolutely not above seeing someone else's point of view... that has not been the case with the Cult 45's and it's been disappointing and discouraging to me).

Death of democracy... Trump and crew are walking all over it and toeing the line unapologetically and with malice there is a sub-section of people getting off on that for very ugly reasons (that's obvious... and I will not debate it). That's not good. ... No, I don't think all Republicans are cheering the idea. But Trump and his hand selected evil doers are not traditional Republicans. They mean the country and the people (all Americans who aren't them) harm. They are not good for the country or the world.

My biggest issue is with this Administration, they are evil. Secondly the Cult45's propping them up are scary. They won't discuss anything other than defending Trump and Republicans. I personally know many Republicans who would not want the likes of the worshippers defending them to Democrats.

Blah blah blah, how I do go on.

I'm glad I got interrupted and had to start over reading your post. It changed what I saw in it. I find it tender and moving and full of sincere and deep longing for the good. I do not think you are alone. I want to add also that I believe these are just the kinds of feelings we so often use bitterness to hide. For you, your suffering may hurt, but for me it reveals your inner beauty.

 

[Younigue]

I'm glad I got interrupted and had to start over reading your post. It changed what I saw in it. I find it tender and moving and full of sincere and deep longing for the good. I do not think you are alone. I want to add also that I believe these are just the kinds of feelings we so often use bitterness to hide. For you, your suffering may hurt, but for me it reveals your inner beauty.

Moonbeam,
That's what I've been trying to tell you all along. I am truly and deeply pretty damn wunnerful!

Also, thank you.

 

[Moonbeam]

Regarding the OP, there are two directions I see that would interest me. The first would be to speculate of what democratic concepts should be renamed and what would be better names. The other is to understand what it is about democrats that requires waking up to this. My guess is that it may feel like stooping to a lower level and thus perhaps offensive to a democrat perceived sense of intellectual superiority.

 

[agent00f]

Play to your strengths... the economy is coming down. Wall Street will not save them. We will.

It's hateful, divisive, language that turns people away. It's the fight itself. Put down the fists and open your arms. The desperate will cling to any path available to them... just look at Trump. Be the COMPLETE alternative to trickle down.

People largely concerned about their position on the social/ethnic ladder are content as long as some minorities get it worse. Exhibit A: Trump; plus literally every scientific study on the matter.

 

[crashtech]

You are the biggest problem with the current political discourse. Not buckshot and his ilk, but the people who look at that with an excuse at the ready so they can go back to patting their backs about how "independent" they are and how smart and talented they are for realizing that there's propaganda on both sides.

This is really as far as I am willing to go in your post, because if there's no clarity on this point, there's no use talking to each other anymore. You find more in common with buckshot than with me because you appreciate ideological purity. I appreciate it too, to the extent that it fleshes out the narratives of each side of an issue. But that's all an extreme point of view can do in a functioning democracy. Extremes can't get together and craft legislation, for ideologues like you find the idea of compromise disgusting. The logical conclusion must be that those like you, with a professed disdain for centrists, would prefer an authoritarian regime that would dictate and enforce all your favorite policies without regard to any opposition. Therefore it's clear that ideologues are the true enemy of democracy, once they overstep their role of informing the debate and instead try to seize unilateral power.

 

[agent00f]

Perhaps without even thinking, you've done something very similar to what zin has done, by lumping everyone who doesn't align precisely enough with you into "those who would end democracy." Pardon me, but that how is that substantively different than Nazi name calling? Once you take that mental step of categorizing and disregarding dehumanizing a vast swath of people after knowing just one single thing about them, it's you who are helping to bring about the demise of democracy, knowingly or not. It's you who are starting the ideological war by making enemies of your countrymen!

There has to be compromise in a healthy democracy, in fact, I'd say it's axiomatic. To reductively paint any opponent as an enemy of democracy simply because they disagree with you or belong to the other party is intellectually lazy.

I think the german right wing ie. nazis were very human, and reliably followed in their self-interests as humans can be expected to do sans modern liberal education. When it was in their self-interest to be nazis, they became nazis, and when it wasn't through denazification, they stopped being nazis.

Just as it's in your self-interest to portray the american right wing as nothing like nazis, when they similarly subjugate various minorities when it was in their self-interest to do so, and continued the best they can sans denazification type processes. Just as it's in your self-interest to pretend to be some kind of liberal concerned about "free speech", when it can't be more obvious american right wingers interpret the constitution like they interpret the bible.

It's our choice whether to do anything about our nazis, and price to be paid for not doing much is pretty clear, eg segregation. That's on the hands of people who make that choice, even if they can't be counted on to have the basic integrity to accept responsibility for anything when it's not in their interest.

 

[crashtech]

There's really no denying the emotional appeal of painting all of your opposition as Nazis. In a way, it's amazing that it still works, as tired as it is, but there clearly is something enduringly cathartic about it and the way it frees one from having to consider their opponents as human.

 

[agent00f]

There's really no denying the emotional appeal of painting all of your opposition as Nazis. In a way, it's amazing that it still works, as tired as it is, but there clearly is something enduringly cathartic about it and the way it frees one from having to consider their opponents as human.

Degenerates can always be counted on to protect their race realist allies for some tax cuts.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

There's really no denying the emotional appeal of painting all of your opposition as Nazis. In a way, it's amazing that it still works, as tired as it is, but there clearly is something enduringly cathartic about it and the way it frees one from having to consider their opponents as human.

Works for everyone, one instinct intrinsic to humans that doesn't get touched on enough. Dehumanization/segregation of those you want to be able to defeat/demean/destroy is a time-honored tradition, used by allies and enemies alike.

There's a reason in military SERE training, in the POW section, you're supposed to talk with your captors, ask about their family and tell them about yours. It makes you relate-able and you get better treatment. It's also why we tied fucking dog collars around our POW's to make "enhanced interrogation" easier.

 

[agent00f]

Works for everyone, one instinct intrinsic to humans that doesn't get touched on enough. Dehumanization/segregation of those you want to be able to defeat/demean/destroy is a time-honored tradition, used by allies and enemies alike.

There's a reason in military SERE training, in the POW section, you're supposed to talk with your captors, ask about their family and tell them about yours. It makes you relate-able and you get better treatment. It's also why we tied fucking dog collars around our POW's to make "enhanced interrogation" easier.

How would you say the confederate types are dissimilar to their german counterparts?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

How would you say the confederate types are dissimilar to their german counterparts?

Which time periods are we talking? Actual confederates (pre/during civil war) and Nazi Germans? There's probably more dissimilarities than similarities there. If you mean modern 'confederates' (jacked up trucks and union jack) vs modern Germans? Absolutely nothing, other than they both consume of oxygen and expel CO2.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

Fatter and lazier and less disciplined. Crappy uniforms too.

 

[agent00f]

Which time periods are we talking? Actual confederates (pre/during civil war) and Nazi Germans? There's probably more dissimilarities than similarities there. If you mean modern 'confederates' (jacked up trucks and union jack) vs modern Germans? Absolutely nothing, other than they both consume of oxygen and expel CO2.

I'm talking about the confederates who after getting deseg forced upon them went to the next best thing in segregation, and when that was forcibly taken away still try their hardest to stay high on that ethnic status totem, all because such bigotry is the self-interest of bigots until better people make it otherwise.

I think you're smart enough to understand my argument here, just as crashtech does.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I'm talking about the confederates who after getting deseg forced upon them went to the next best thing in segregation, and when that was forcibly taken away still try their hardest to stay high on that ethnic status totem, all because such bigotry is the self-interest of bigots until better people make it otherwise.

I think you're smart enough to understand my argument here, just as crashtech does.

Oh, I wasn't really paying attention to the rest of the thread, just responding to @crashtech
I'm not quite following the argument, I guess you're saying they're Nazis because they're still clinging to their moralistic superiority? I'm not sure how much of a 'thing' that was post-WW2, I'm not really up on post-war german political/civilian climate.

Gotta be careful with the 'better people' part though, if you enforce something on others 'for their own good' that's a great way to have them gang up on you, and unless you're willing to quell that, you're going to have issues. See: any authoritarian regime ever.

It's smarter to make it in their own self-interest to comply. America's done a decent job at that through public shaming/peer pressure/education.

 

[agent00f]

Oh, I wasn't really paying attention to the rest of the thread, just responding to @crashtech
I'm not quite following the argument, I guess you're saying they're Nazis because they're still clinging to their moralistic superiority? I'm not sure how much of a 'thing' that was post-WW2, I'm not really up on post-war german political/civilian climate.

It's can't be more obvious how people riled up by speeches shit-talking lower status minorities are akin to nazis.

Gotta be careful with the 'better people' part though, if you enforce something on others 'for their own good' that's a great way to have them gang up on you, and unless you're willing to quell that, you're going to have issues. See: any authoritarian regime ever.

It's smarter to make it in their own self-interest to comply. America's done a decent job at that through public shaming/peer pressure/education.

It's pretty hard to argue that the germans weren't better people for supporting denazification after their mistakes, than their american counterparts still uneasy about it a century and half later.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

It's can't be more obvious how people riled up by speeches shit-talking lower status minorities are akin to nazis.



It's pretty hard to argue that the germans weren't better people for supporting denazification after their mistakes, than their american counterparts still uneasy about it a century and half later.

You can draw an apt correlation there imo, but they acted on different reasons I imagine, I've always found 'confederate' types to be more concerned with others being below them, rather than them being above others. It's a small distinction but important because much of the racists you'll find in the US have a specific problem with a specific group of people, rather than simply feeling everyone's beneath them (as was the case with many Nazis insofar as I remember). I could be completely off-base on this part though.

 

[Jaskalas]

That the prevailing messaging in this topic is of Nazis, and groups, and this VS that... many of you are all neck deep in the problem.

You do not reach people by attacking them. These groups you speak of are not monolithic, unless you want us to treat all Muslims as terrorists, all Blacks as criminals? Democrats should be better than that. To respect the nuances and individual humanities stuck underneath the mud of labels. To see the individual from the group and reach out to and connect with their need for life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. The economic situation is clamping down, applying pressure, 99% want relief. Even some 1% see the need to reach out to maintain order and not descend into chaos viva la French Revolution.

There is messaging out there that can call to, and appeal to a vast majority. We've just been too busy hating on one another to try.

 

[agent00f]

You can draw an apt correlation there imo, but they acted on different reasons I imagine, I've always found 'confederate' types to be more concerned with others being below them, rather than them being above others. It's a small distinction but important because much of the racists you'll find in the US have a specific problem with a specific group of people, rather than simply feeling everyone's beneath them (as was the case with many Nazis insofar as I remember). I could be completely off-base on this part though.

Sure, that's why they love it all the same when trump & co shit talk mexicans, muslims, blacks, etc. No like those german who found the jews particularly problematic.

That the prevailing messaging in this topic is of Nazis, and groups, and this VS that... many of you are all neck deep in the problem.

You do not reach people by attacking them. These groups you speak of are not monolithic, unless you want us to treat all Muslims as terrorists, all Blacks as criminals? Democrats should be better than that. To respect the nuances and individual humanities stuck underneath the mud of labels. To see the individual from the group and reach out to and connect with their need for life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. The economic situation is clamping down, applying pressure, 99% want relief. Even some 1% see the need to reach out to maintain order and not descend into chaos viva la French Revolution.

There is messaging out there that can call to, and appeal to a vast majority. We've just been too busy hating on one another to try.

The nazis & co were the Real victims only acting out desperation when libtards were so mean to them. That's why respecting the confederacy worked out so well in your mind.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

The nazis & co were the Real victims only acting out desperation when libtards were so mean to them. That's why respecting the confederacy worked out so well in your mind.

To be fair, his point (which I agree with) is to get ahead of this shit before a third of the nation decides to start gassing the other 2/3rds. Integrate the populations rather than segregate them, educate everyone instead of having 'superior schools' and 'everyone else schools' (while also artificially creating segregation lines in the economy).

 

[agent00f]

To be fair, his point (which I agree with) is to get ahead of this shit before a third of the nation decides to start gassing the other 2/3rds. Integrate the populations rather than segregate them, educate everyone instead of having 'superior schools' and 'everyone else schools' (while also artificially creating segregation lines in the economy).

Doesn't seem to me you agree with him about denazification in general.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Doesn't seem to me you agree with him about denazification in general.

I agree primarily with deradicalization, and the prevention of radicalization to begin with. Fighting existing radical groups is a lot like wrapping jello in rubber bands.

 

[agent00f]

I agree primarily with deradicalization, and the prevention of radicalization to begin with. Fighting existing radical groups is a lot like wrapping jello in rubber bands.

Seems you were very much for making it against the interests of racists to be racist, exactly what I advocate for because it works, which is why it was surprising you agreed with Jaskalas instead.