Dan Savage Nails Messaging

[[DHT]Osiris]

Seems you were very much for making it against the interests of racists to be racist, exactly what I advocate for because it works, which is why it was surprising you agreed with Jaskalas.

I can't speak for @Jaskalas but it seemed like he was trying to state that you need to reach the individual, not focus on the group (which is another way of approaching what I said), could be wrong though. If, in the past, he's condoned actions by groups like this (terrorists, call them what they are) then so be it. I don't know enough about his stance, though.

But yes, it should be against the best interests of a nation (or arguably, of the entire world, since we're kinda one 'tribe' now) to not disparage other parts, but instead work together (in a highly idealized version of our world).

 

[agent00f]

I can't speak for @Jaskalas but it seemed like he was trying to state that you need to reach the individual, not focus on the group (which is another way of approaching what I said), could be wrong though. If, in the past, he's condoned actions by groups like this (terrorists, call them what they are) then so be it. I don't know enough about his stance, though.

But yes, it should be against the best interests of a nation (or arguably, of the entire world, since we're kinda one 'tribe' now) to not disparage other parts, but instead work together (in a highly idealized version of our world).

As mentioned, it's very much in the interests of the racist conservatives to ally with the money grubbing ones to keep the party afloat. Those are interests presumably aligned against yours, which is why they're not going to work together with you, given the reality of how politics works. There are people who might support doing something about that state of affairs, and those who think said people cross a line for labeling racists as racists and their friends as friends to racists. For example, Jaskalas is a reliable friend to racists, as demonstrated by his political obligation to carry water for them here. Racism lives on as long as enough folks like that are perpetually willing to turn a blind eye.

 

[buckshot24]

Give the voting rights act its teeth back, enact districting rules that prevent gerrymanders, and let democracy take its course so they can't inflict minority rule over the country.

GOP got more votes in congressional races nationwide.

 

[Roflmouth]

Some things cannot be compromised with. A party that supports and eagerly pursues disenfranchisement, for example, is incompatible with a functioning democracy. A party that spreads falsehoods about groups that they shout down whenever those groups try to address those complaints, for example, is incompatible with a functional society in a multicultural world.

I agree. When the left shouts down those who don't buy into their horseshit and claims their voters are too stupid to get photo IDs, democracy isn't served.

 

[Roflmouth]

Do you agree that the House Republicans must distance themselves from Trump for that to happen?

The House Republicans will not be distancing themselves from the President, thus handing the Democrats endless victories, despite your deepest desires. Try not to cry

 

[xthetenth]

This is really as far as I am willing to go in your post, because if there's no clarity on this point, there's no use talking to each other anymore. You find more in common with buckshot than with me because you appreciate ideological purity. I appreciate it too, to the extent that it fleshes out the narratives of each side of an issue. But that's all an extreme point of view can do in a functioning democracy. Extremes can't get together and craft legislation, for ideologues like you find the idea of compromise disgusting. The logical conclusion must be that those like you, with a professed disdain for centrists, would prefer an authoritarian regime that would dictate and enforce all your favorite policies without regard to any opposition. Therefore it's clear that ideologues are the true enemy of democracy, once they overstep their role of informing the debate and instead try to seize unilateral power.

A reply that totally glosses over the entire discussion of matters of fact and settles into a hand-wringing about any accusations leveled at you and your smug disengagement is a perfect summation of my criticism of you so thanks, I guess?

Tell you what. I have only criticized you for the outlook you have displayed in the thread. If you actually show that you have seriously considered the criticism that you overlook fact in a rush to smugly chide both sides, I'll take back my now-disproven accusation. I won't even hold your preposterous assumptions about me and my character against you. If you insist on this being the discussion though, that's on you.

I am always amazed by the things that people who don't know me can tell about me lest they actually face down my criticism of them or their beliefs. Tell me more about what I find in common with buckshot, who among other things I have called the sort of thing I scrape off my shoe lest the sidewalk get dirty and I disrespect routinely by addressing my responses to his points to the rest of the thread since they might actually get read by them. His intellectual dishonesty is breathtaking in its repugnance.

GOP got more votes in congressional races nationwide.

One out of three ain't bad?

Good bloody luck on that in future elections now that the utter mendacity of the party has been established.

I agree. When the left shouts down those who don't buy into their horseshit and claims their voters are too stupid to get photo IDs, democracy isn't served.

I'd be a lot more worked up about your particular brand of idiocy if I thought you were literate enough to read a ballot.

 

[crashtech]

A reply that totally glosses over the entire discussion of matters of fact and settles into a hand-wringing about any accusations leveled at you and your smug disengagement is a perfect summation of my criticism of you so thanks, I guess?

Tell you what. I have only criticized you for the outlook you have displayed in the thread. If you actually show that you have seriously considered the criticism that you overlook fact in a rush to smugly chide both sides, I'll take back my now-disproven accusation. I won't even hold your preposterous assumptions about me and my character against you. If you insist on this being the discussion though, that's on you.

I am always amazed by the things that people who don't know me can tell about me lest they actually face down my criticism of them or their beliefs. Tell me more about what I find in common with buckshot, who among other things I have called the sort of thing I scrape off my shoe lest the sidewalk get dirty and I disrespect routinely by addressing my responses to his points to the rest of the thread since they might actually get read by them. His intellectual dishonesty is breathtaking in its repugnance.

I'll take your point, but just remember it was you who started your previous reply by flatly and without qualification declaring that I am the problem, so my negative reaction should not surprise you so much.

 

[buckshot24]

One out of three ain't bad?

Good bloody luck on that in future elections now that the utter mendacity of the party has been established.

But you mentioned Gerrymandering which is possible only in the house of representatives.

 

[Younigue]

I agree primarily with deradicalization, and the prevention of radicalization to begin with. Fighting existing radical groups is a lot like wrapping jello in rubber bands.

Great! *Sigh* Now I'm gong to spend hours trying that Jello thing! Fingers crossed it's more fun than frustrating.

 

[agent00f]

I'll take your point, but just remember it was you who started your previous reply by flatly and without qualification declaring that I am the problem, so my negative reaction should not surprise you so much.

Degens who enable race realists and such in exchange for political favor are obviously a substantial part of the problem. That's simply factual.

 

[Jaskalas]

Seems you were very much for making it against the interests of racists to be racist, exactly what I advocate for because it works, which is why it was surprising you agreed with Jaskalas instead.

You see "others" and are blinded into thinking it is mutually exclusive.

An America so divided is giving votes to those you hate, more votes than they would otherwise have. Many participate in tribalism with a group they have no cause to support, aside from a dash of naivety and from having been branded. You unite and create your own enemies as you offer them hatred and violence when all they're looking for is safety and security.

Instead, I intend to weaken your opponents by stealing from them, and there is no greater opportunity than through economics at this time. Economics forced me separate from Libertarians, but it was a warm and embracing message that inspired me to believe in others. I want that door opened for everyone.

Hating your fellow Americans does not give them the opportunity to make the right choices, to switch sides.

 

[agent00f]

You see "others" and are blinded into thinking it is mutually exclusive.

An America so divided is giving votes to those you hate, more votes than they would otherwise have. Many participate in tribalism with a group they have no cause to support, aside from a dash of naivety and from having been branded. You unite and create your own enemies as you offer them hatred and violence when all they're looking for is safety and security.

Instead, I intend to weaken your opponents by stealing from them, and there is no greater opportunity than through economics at this time. Economics forced me separate from Libertarians, but it was a warm and embracing message that inspired me to believe in others. I want that door opened for everyone.

Hating your fellow Americans does not give them the opportunity to make the right choices, to switch sides.

Yeah if only Obama was around to inspire nazis types who insisted he was a kenyan muslim, or actual nazis/confederates who probably thought a bit worse. Damn I wonder what happened to that guy who was the lead birther.

Speaking of political interests, it's in Jaskalas' to portray those he shills for as wide eyed victims and not degenerates looking out for themselves. It's easy enough to figure which applies to those who wouldn't think twice about taking healthcare from 20+million for a chance at a bit of money. But let's not let liberals off the hook either; it's in the interest of liberals to portray themselves as educators to the ignorant instead of patsies outplay by people they agree are stupid. That mutually beneficial arrangement between liberals and conservatives is arguably the harder nut to crack than between racists and money grubbers.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yeah if only Obama was around to inspire nazis types who insisted he was a kenyan muslim, or actual nazis/confederates who probably thought a bit worse. Damn I wonder what happened to that guy who was the lead birther.

Speaking of political interests, it's in Jaskalas' to portray those he shills for as wide eyed victims and not degenerates looking out for themselves. It's easy enough to figure which applies to those who wouldn't think twice about taking healthcare from 20+million for a chance at a bit of money. But let's not let liberals off the hook either; it's in the interest of liberals to portray themselves as educators to the ignorant instead of patsies outplay by people they agree are stupid. That mutually beneficial arrangement between liberals and conservatives is arguably the harder nut to crack than between racists and money grubbers.

The problem becomes intractable when the nuts imagine themselves to be the nut crackers.

 

[Moonbeam]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi7QQ5pO7_A

Its amazing how liberals so easily see the irrationality of hate for the other until they become infected themselves with it.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

There is a difference between blind hatred and justified anger. Learn it and stop tone trolling.

 

[crashtech]

There is a difference between blind hatred and justified anger. Learn it and stop tone trolling.

If you are serious about your desire to see Moonbeam learn, then you should be able to show that agent00f's attacks on specific forum members are indeed justified.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

If you are serious about your desire to see Moonbeam learn, then you should be able to show that agent00f's attacks on specific forum members are indeed justified.

Few in here really want to learn anything. Most are here to impose their own philosophy by force of word, and screw anyone who might dissent. And if you DO disagree with their thinking they'll try to slime you, like some teeny lashing out on social media.

Sadly that is how it works in P&N.

 

[agent00f]

The problem becomes intractable when the nuts imagine themselves to be the nut crackers.

Your newly attracted race realist friends are a great example of how GOP politics works.

 

[Moonbeam]

There is a difference between blind hatred and justified anger. Learn it and stop tone trolling.

That sounds like a proclamation of faith, faith that the anger of the other is blind hatred and your own is merely justified anger. Every bigot says the same thing. Did you watch the link? The bad guys are black on the right side. That's how you know their the ones who suffer from blind hatred. You're so deep in the weeds, you can't conceive that anybody else might be able to think clearly. You can't see that your contempt for the morally contemptible has made you just like them, and you're having a hard time adjusting to the news. That's an issue all the morally superior run into eventually. Buck up. I used to be morally superior too.

 

[agent00f]

That sounds like a proclamation of faith, faith that the anger of the other is blind hatred and your own is merely justified anger. Every bigot says the same thing. Did you watch the link? The bad guys are black on the right side. That's how you know their the ones who suffer from blind hatred. You're so deep in the weeds, you can't conceive that anybody else might be able to think clearly. You can't see that your contempt for the morally contemptible has made you just like them, and you're having a hard time adjusting to the news. That's an issue all the morally superior run into eventually. Buck up. I used to be morally superior too.

And now you sympathize with neo-nazis and the like. Great moral to this story.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

*facepalm*

Don't quit your day job, okay? Psychoanalysis is not your long suit, Moonbeam. You assume everyone works the same as you do, which is where it all goes wahoonie-shaped. Do you think that wishing for people to get their just deserts and learn from them is truly hatred?

 

[Moonbeam]

*facepalm*

Don't quit your day job, okay? Psychoanalysis is not your long suit, Moonbeam. You assume everyone works the same as you do, which is where it all goes wahoonie-shaped. Do you think that wishing for people to get their just deserts and learn from them is truly hatred?

I am saying that one of us makes assumptions the other does not and that those assumption form the bars of a prison that prevents objective vision with the result that one of us is projecting their assumptions on the other.

I assume, for example that when you tell me that I assume that everyone works the same as I do, I assume that you are wrong and I am right, that everybody, in fact, does work just like I do and I assume further that you make that wrong assumption because you do not know yourself, and further, that it would cause you great emotional distress if knowing what I know and seeing what I see, more generally, were correct. An example of another what you will call another assumption is this:

You assume that wishing for people to get their just desserts isn't hatred. For me it's nothing but. You make that statement because you can't see past the bars of your prison, the notion that people should get their just desserts is an absurdity because they always do instantly. The prison of hell is a prison in which all the prisoners wish that everybody's prison is as miserable as their own, and I know also it is universal that any in such a prison are hoping that other get theirs too. One thing about such a prison is that you will have a lot of company and thus you will never notice your condition. The depth to which you wish just desserts for others is the depth of your own hell.

There is only love and the delusion that it is absent. The door to love is guarded by all the monsters you're own hate has created and the only way past them is to make them evaporate by forgiveness because all of those monsters are nothing really but projections of your own hate for yourself in the form of false unexamined assumptions.

Now I would like you to be free, but prison is a lovely place if you like company. It is also one you can never be talked out of if you don't want to listen so I am going to end this conversation with you with a saying:

Whoever made a lock to a prison has also made a key.

 

[agent00f]

I am saying that one of us makes assumptions the other does not and that those assumption form the bars of a prison that prevents objective vision with the result that one of us is projecting their assumptions on the other.

I assume, for example that when you tell me that I assume that everyone works the same as I do, I assume that you are wrong and I am right, that everybody, in fact, does work just like I do and I assume further that you make that wrong assumption because you do not know yourself, and further, that it would cause you great emotional distress if knowing what I know and seeing what I see, more generally, were correct. An example of another what you will call another assumption is this:

You assume that wishing for people to get their just desserts isn't hatred. For me it's nothing but. You make that statement because you can't see past the bars of your prison, the notion that people should get their just desserts is an absurdity because they always do instantly. The prison of hell is a prison in which all the prisoners wish that everybody's prison is as miserable as their own, and I know also it is universal that any in such a prison are hoping that other get theirs too. One thing about such a prison is that you will have a lot of company and thus you will never notice your condition. The depth to which you wish just desserts for others is the depth of your own hell.

There is only love and the delusion that it is absent. The door to love is guarded by all the monsters you're own hate has created and the only way past them is to make them evaporate by forgiveness because all of those monsters are nothing really but projections of your own hate for yourself in the form of false unexamined assumptions.

Now I would like you to be free, but prison is a lovely place if you like company. It is also one you can never be talked out of if you don't want to listen so I am going to end this conversation with you with a saying:

Whoever made a lock to a prison has also made a key.

So why are you right about the jews and hitler wasn't? It is still safe to assume you two differ on that matter?

 

[Moonbeam]

So why are you right about the jews and hitler wasn't? It is still safe to assume you two differ on that matter?

There is no Hitler and there are no Jews. These are projections of the assumptions we hold. There are only people who have been programmed or deprogrammed. We can all be programmed and deprogrammed. We are all the same but that is clear only to those in the null state. To the programmed their programming is their treasure. Few want to abandon it, so we spend our lives trying to get the other to knock it off our shoulder. If you aren't free yourself, why not make everybody else miserable. Wouldn't that be your definition of deplorable? For me it is the inescapable price one pays for holding on to conditioning and if you can't let go why would you blame others who also can't? A program is an altered reality imposed on children before they can even think, much less defend themselves. It's tortured soul you seek to condemn with more and more condemnation, the very thing that programmed them in the first place. It is quite natural for you to do that because the face of the tortured is pride. Monsters appear to love themselves. I know they don't and I know it viscerally. You seek to convince me otherwise, but you can't take anything from a null state. I already lost enough of what could be taken from me to experience a transformation. I found the soured of the love I was seeking. I back to being a nobody now. I make some posts on Nanotech and they fly off God knows where.

Did you come to dismiss and argue or to seek understanding?

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

You've officially lost your shit, Moonbeam.