Dan Savage Nails Messaging

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
If humans were somehow genetically moral, then violent crime rates and such should be inherently low. Yet, they only prove to drop as civilization (you know, "programming") advances: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052REUW0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Seem obvious that humans aren't inherently good but rather have a capacity to learn good.
You assume that learning is additive. Real learning, the kind that produces higher understanding are the product of unlearning unconsciously assumptions. It's the fire of conscious suffering that forges steel by burning away impurities. The alchemy of happiness is the transformation of the dross into the fine by the magic of a secret chemistry. The chemistry is secret, of course, because it is rejected as improbable by he blind, it doesn't match assumptions. Remember, everything you think and believe is there as a rationalization to blind you. Every effort to step toward the truth is a step away. The truth is always 180 degrees from where you are looking. Every point you make I can easily destroy because I am looking out of your own eyes from deeper within your own darkness, but none of it matters because you can't let go of your ego which turns everything I say into wrong. You only get more and more determined to win and more deeply blind in the process. Racists are the same, determined the other is the inferior one because they rely on some stupid notion of superiority to mask their lack of real self respect. Lose the need, lose the superiority. The Phoenix did.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
You assume that learning is additive. Real learning, the kind that produces higher understanding are the product of unlearning unconsciously assumptions. It's the fire of conscious suffering that forges steel by burning away impurities. The alchemy of happiness is the transformation of the dross into the fine by the magic of a secret chemistry. The chemistry is secret, of course, because it is rejected as improbable by he blind, it doesn't match assumptions. Remember, everything you think and believe is there as a rationalization to blind you. Every effort to step toward the truth is a step away. The truth is always 180 degrees from where you are looking. Every point you make I can easily destroy because I am looking out of your own eyes from deeper within your own darkness, but none of it matters because you can't let go of your ego which turns everything I say into wrong. You only get more and more determined to win and more deeply blind in the process. Racists are the same, determined the other is the inferior one because they rely on some stupid notion of superiority to mask their lack of real self respect. Lose the need, lose the superiority. The Phoenix did.

On the one hand we have the body of academics and visionaries pushing the boundaries of human knowledge to advance civilization and attendant quality of life, and on the other we have you boldly following your opposing advice to become a parody of yourself. Hard choice I know.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
On the one hand we have the body of academics and visionaries pushing the boundaries of human knowledge to advance civilization and attendant quality of life, and on the other we have you boldly following your opposing advice to become a parody of yourself. Hard choice I know.
Any idea what humanity had and is still having to give up to practice scientific thinking. Science requires a null state that permits insights to form between and among ideas that defy traditional and, or unconsciously assumptions. Science is the unlearning of ignorance that once was accepted as correct based on realizations that take place at a higher level of understanding. Light is the removal of darkness, it is the revelation of truth that has always been, not the invention of something new. We only think of it as new when we first become aware of it. Now what new rationalization will you put out to for me to correct? Why not next time critique whatever it is for yourself. Pretend you are me. We are the same with a possible variation in amount of the dust on our mirrors.
 
Reactions: Perknose

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Any idea what humanity had and is still having to give up to practice scientific thinking. Science requires a null state that permits insights to form between and among ideas that defy traditional and, or unconsciously assumptions. Science is the unlearning of ignorance that once was accepted as correct based on realizations that take place at a higher level of understanding. Light is the removal of darkness, it is the revelation of truth that has always been, not the invention of something new. We only think of it as new when we first become aware of it. Now what new rationalization will you put out to for me to correct? Why not next time critique whatever it is for yourself. Pretend you are me. We are the same with a possible variation in amount of the dust on our mirrors.

No, science is the creative concoction of artificial rules to explain natural phenomena to human minds, which is why there's often a tradeoff between accuracy and generality. If humans always "knew" rather complex quantum electrodynamics but for barriers to express it, they certainly had a terrible way of showing that.

Keep in mind that if the zen word game masters you mimic from a thousand years ago had any actual insight into reality, they would be the people taught in science class.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,271
9,352
146
Keep in mind that if the zen word game masters you mimic from a thousand years ago had any actual insight into reality, they would be the people taught in science class.

Actually, they'd be taught in philosophy class, which is the foundation of all subsequent "knowledge."

Zen "word game masters?" Einstein allowed for their efficacy, and had much to say on the subject, bolding mine:

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism."

"For the scientific method can teach us nothing else beyond how facts are related to, and conditioned by, each other. The aspiration toward such objective knowledge belongs to the highest of which man is capable, and you will certainly not suspect me of wishing to belittle the achievements and the heroic efforts of man in this sphere. Yet is equally clear that knowledge of what is does not open the door directly to what should be. One can have the clearest and most complete knowledge of what is , and yet not be able to deduct from that what should be the goal of our human aspirations. Objective knowledge provides us with powerful instruments for the achievements of certain ends, but the ultimate goal itself and the longing to reach it must come from another source. And it is hardly necessary to argue for the view that our existence and our activity acquire meaning only by the setting up of such a goal and of corresponding values."

"In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this religious feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it."

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
 
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Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
I read that passage of his in my early teens and it was profoundly moving, mostly because I'd had a similar epiphany rather earlier.
 

Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
Appeal to authority is only fallacious when the authority itself has no possible bearing on the subject.

To put it another way: suppose you fell and broke your leg. Who do you trust, a doctor or some guy on the street who says to wrap it in your shirt and smoke a blunt and it'll be fine in a month? And why?
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Actually, they'd be taught in philosophy class, which is the foundation of all subsequent "knowledge."

Philosophers like to think so because science was originally an offshoot of "natural philosophy", until it was found that nothing much can be shown to exist outside the natural world, which really put a damper on the original philosophical ideal that knowledge far as "truth" is concerned could be found merely by thinking/conjuring. I would tend to agree philosophy has value, which is why I spent considerable effort reading it, but it's not science.

Zen "word game masters?" Einstein allowed for their efficacy, and had much to say on the subject, bolding mine:

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism."

"For the scientific method can teach us nothing else beyond how facts are related to, and conditioned by, each other. The aspiration toward such objective knowledge belongs to the highest of which man is capable, and you will certainly not suspect me of wishing to belittle the achievements and the heroic efforts of man in this sphere. Yet is equally clear that knowledge of what is does not open the door directly to what should be. One can have the clearest and most complete knowledge of what is , and yet not be able to deduct from that what should be the goal of our human aspirations. Objective knowledge provides us with powerful instruments for the achievements of certain ends, but the ultimate goal itself and the longing to reach it must come from another source. And it is hardly necessary to argue for the view that our existence and our activity acquire meaning only by the setting up of such a goal and of corresponding values."

"In my view, it is the most important function of art and science to awaken this religious feeling and keep it alive in those who are receptive to it."

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

It's not clear what this has to do with anything Moonbeam was going on about; he was using some trite rhetorical argument to somehow show his little crackpot pet psych theories are above all scientific reproach. And if we've learned anything about the world in the last few hundred years it's that when personal conviction and science conflict only one ever wins. For example, how wrong Einstein was about his God rolling dice via Bell's inequalities.

Your appeals to authority are so adorable, imbecile

It's an appeal to empirical reality, for example why it surprises no one that conservatives can't even close to hitting double digit representation among scientists, vs the opposite for klansmen.
 
Reactions: Azuma Hazuki
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Tell me more about these alts. Are they the multiple people who reply at the same time and in different styles? Because really, I don't have much of a hard time telling most of the posters here apart.
So you've been here only since 2014 but know all about alts, and the style of posters in here?

If I was a lefty I'd question wwybygb?

But I'm not, so I won't. Paranoia is a dangerous thing. The left hasn't figured that out yet.
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
1,800
529
106
So you've been here only since 2014 but know all about alts, and the style of posters in here?

If I was a lefty I'd question wwybygb?

But I'm not, so I won't. Paranoia is a dangerous thing. The left hasn't figured that out yet.

Oh dearie me, I've "only" been here for three years. Did you know that alts aren't an exclusive phenomenon to the AnandTech forums, and that when you post daily on a forum for months you pick up a feel for people's writing styles pretty quick? Or maybe I should say that when I do because you don't seem to be the best at pattern recognition. As an example, nobody could duplicate moonbeam's posting style without it being painfully clear that they're trying to do his schtick. I doubt anyone has the time, patience or willingness to delve into a thesaurus deeply enough to do a proper imitation of my style, and the historical references I make are pretty distinctive as well. If someone starts talking about Hell like Azuma, it'd be painfully obvious. You're kind of boring but your inane "not asking questions" questions and easily triggered insecurity give the game away.

But no. Tell me who you think are alts of each other and I'll tell you a quick and easy way to tell them apart.

Nice little rhetorical trick there asking a question and then trying to cash in points for not asking it because you're not at all like those paranoid lefties, oh no.
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,446
106
Oh dearie me, I've "only" been here for three years. Did you know that alts aren't an exclusive phenomenon to the AnandTech forums, and that when you post daily on a forum for months you pick up a feel for people's writing styles pretty quick? Or maybe I should say that when I do because you don't seem to be the best at pattern recognition. As an example, nobody could duplicate moonbeam's posting style without it being painfully clear that they're trying to do his schtick. I doubt anyone has the time, patience or willingness to delve into a thesaurus deeply enough to do a proper imitation of my style, and the historical references I make are pretty distinctive as well. If someone starts talking about Hell like Azuma, it'd be painfully obvious. You're kind of boring but your inane "not asking questions" questions and easily triggered insecurity give the game away.

But no. Tell me who you think are alts of each other and I'll tell you a quick and easy way to tell them apart.

Nice little rhetorical trick there asking a question and then trying to cash in points for not asking it because you're not at all like those paranoid lefties, oh no.

I see Lil'InsignificantChickenBites is swinging his limpness in your direction. How ever will you endure his meaningless drivel? Oh right... easily.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
So you've been here only since 2014 but know all about alts, and the style of posters in here?

If I was a lefty I'd question wwybygb?

But I'm not, so I won't. Paranoia is a dangerous thing. The left hasn't figured that out yet.

Glad to see you're picking up the 'who, me?' mantle for Doc Savage Fan.
 
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Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
Heh...if I had to I could run an alt account with no problem. It's just method acting. I've never done it here, but it was useful on another forum I used to frequent to help track down someone who was stalking me.

Basically I studied the guy's speech patterns and habits, read his blog, and studied the things he was interested in, then pretended to be a guy, a really gross one, which got me into his inner circle. From there I was able to get more information, learn his real name etc., as well as most of his friends'.

A little more evidence gathering, including pictures he took and transcripts of things he planned to do to "that fucking *** who doesn't know her place in this world," and I was set. His relatives were, shall we say, surprised at the kind of person he was
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
1,800
529
106
Heh...if I had to I could run an alt account with no problem. It's just method acting. I've never done it here, but it was useful on another forum I used to frequent to help track down someone who was stalking me.

Basically I studied the guy's speech patterns and habits, read his blog, and studied the things he was interested in, then pretended to be a guy, a really gross one, which got me into his inner circle. From there I was able to get more information, learn his real name etc., as well as most of his friends'.

A little more evidence gathering, including pictures he took and transcripts of things he planned to do to "that fucking *** who doesn't know her place in this world," and I was set. His relatives were, shall we say, surprised at the kind of person he was

Right, but that serves a purpose to gain access you wouldn't otherwise have. What birdbrain over here is talking about sounds a lot like someone who can already post here making another account just so they can make somewhat different posts on the same subjects at the same time. Why would anyone go to that much trouble when there's so little to gain?
 

Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
Because it gives the impression that a degenerate PoV has more supporters than it actually does. It would be a one-man Astroturf campaign basically. That kind of perception management is SOP in the propagandists' handbook.

I would love to be a fly on the wall (or an admin who can see the forum's SQL backend...) and find out how many people end up posting from wildly different IPs, or on the other hand, how many different, suspiciously-similar-sounding accounts have the same IP.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
No, science is the creative concoction of artificial rules to explain natural phenomena to human minds, which is why there's often a tradeoff between accuracy and generality. If humans always "knew" rather complex quantum electrodynamics but for barriers to express it, they certainly had a terrible way of showing that.

Keep in mind that if the zen word game masters you mimic from a thousand years ago had any actual insight into reality, they would be the people taught in science class.
You seem to have quite a gift for confusing yourself. The notion that because knowledge in the form of wisdom or truth in a more philosophical sense is discovered or reacquired by the collapse of the delusional state of duality via the removal of unconscious assumptions, biases we were conditioned to believe takes us back to our original not-programmed state, but this time permanently because our capacity to be programmed has been removed. Thus we can become who we really are and have been for thousands of years, what every enlightened person has experienced over and over since before history.

How to do this, is a science that has been preserved in schools for thousands of years and the processes differ depending on the nature of our dominant concealed prejudice.

Science is also the uncovering of what was once not known but in this case what is learned concerns the laws of nature and how they work. So we have two kinds of science, one where the self learns what has always been a mystery about the universe, and the other, the science of why the self, the eye, can't see itself. This is done with mirrors, and of course, someone determined to learn. When the ego does science it can be objective or blind. We see that all the time in threads on evolution or global warming etc. But when the self observes the self and the self hates the self, there is always blindness. The blind will see no schools anywhere even when they are right under your nose. You have neither the need, conscious suffering, not the curiosity, you already know everything. Your tea cup is full.

So to recap, psychological knowledge reveals what we are and have always been, the genetic nature and human potential, and science reveals what was never know about the universe itself. What is really interesting, in my opinion, is how the relationship, if any, between the two. How did it happen that the experience of love is our highest emotion, at least according to some....
 

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,446
106
You seem to have quite a gift for confusing yourself. The notion that because knowledge in the form of wisdom or truth in a more philosophical sense is discovered or reacquired by the collapse of the delusional state of duality via the removal of unconscious assumptions, biases we were conditioned to believe takes us back to our original not-programmed state, but this time permanently because our capacity to be programmed has been removed. Thus we can become who we really are and have been for thousands of years, what every enlightened person has experienced over and over since before history.

How to do this, is a science that has been preserved in schools for thousands of years and the processes differ depending on the nature of our dominant concealed prejudice.

Science is also the uncovering of what was once not known but in this case what is learned concerns the laws of nature and how they work. So we have two kinds of science, one where the self learns what has always been a mystery about the universe, and the other, the science of why the self, the eye, can't see itself. This is done with mirrors, and of course, someone determined to learn. When the ego does science it can be objective or blind. We see that all the time in threads on evolution or global warming etc. But when the self observes the self and the self hates the self, there is always blindness. The blind will see no schools anywhere even when they are right under your nose. You have neither the need, conscious suffering, not the curiosity, you already know everything. Your tea cup is full.

So to recap, psychological knowledge reveals what we are and have always been, the genetic nature and human potential, and science reveals what was never know about the universe itself. What is really interesting, in my opinion, is how the relationship, if any, between the two. How did it happen that the experience of love is our highest emotion, at least according to some....

Mooooonbeammmm? Will you tell me how exactly you would describe who you are? If the wording is wrong please translate in your language and deduce what I mean. No frills, just pain talk *wink* if you know what I mean. *boop your nose*
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
Because it gives the impression that a degenerate PoV has more supporters than it actually does. It would be a one-man Astroturf campaign basically. That kind of perception management is SOP in the propagandists' handbook.

I would love to be a fly on the wall (or an admin who can see the forum's SQL backend...) and find out how many people end up posting from wildly different IPs, or on the other hand, how many different, suspiciously-similar-sounding accounts have the same IP.
I used to do that all the time but in my own self amusing way.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
I used to do that all the time but in my own self amusing way.
Yes, I remember you doing that quite often and can attest to your veracity. My guess was it was the only way at the time you could have an intelligent conversation, but all that would happen, as I recall, was that you would get accused of forgetting to change accounts. The playfulness just wasn't appreciated. It seems perhaps most people are motivated to see truth tellers as liars because, shall we hazard a guess, because they are lying to themselves.
 

xthetenth

Golden Member
Oct 14, 2014
1,800
529
106
Because it gives the impression that a degenerate PoV has more supporters than it actually does. It would be a one-man Astroturf campaign basically. That kind of perception management is SOP in the propagandists' handbook.

I would love to be a fly on the wall (or an admin who can see the forum's SQL backend...) and find out how many people end up posting from wildly different IPs, or on the other hand, how many different, suspiciously-similar-sounding accounts have the same IP.

Oh, I could see the benefits for the degenerates, the same demographic that astroturfs graffiti like "left is best" on playgrounds who desperately need there to be an Enemy that they can rally against, and if the Enemy's not being so kind as to show their perfidy are only to willing to step up and do what they're convinced will rally people against the depravity of that Enemy.

However chicken's alleging that a demographic that is already full of people each of whom can humiliate all the right wingers here would feel the need to split off just to make things even more of an uneven balance when reality backs them up just fine.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,699
6,196
126
Mooooonbeammmm? Will you tell me how exactly you would describe who you are? If the wording is wrong please translate in your language and deduce what I mean. No frills, just pain talk *wink* if you know what I mean. *boop your nose*
I am he who lost his clown avatar and am too technically lazy to figure out how to get it back, if I even could figure it out if I tried. No more nose bopping, I'm afraid. I have another home I haven't been to in a long time and that was the last time I saw my clown. One day I will go there and log on to that computer and see if it reappears.

Who else I am is a body of experience with the effects that self hate have on human interactions, one of which is the desire and need, often self described as curiosity, to put anything that might mirror some truth about ourselves in an box with a label that then can then be neatly filed and put away on a shelf. This happens to me all the time. I have acquired at one time or another almost every mental derangement know to man and a ton more that were invented.

If I am old I am senile, if I am young, I am naïve. If I am married there is pity for my wife, if single, it's obvious why, endlessly. The less you know about me, the closer who you see resembles you and not me, you, generally of course, as in everybody. And the door to truth lies behind the image of ourselves we will not look at so I strive to keep the my mirror as clean as I can. Naturally, I wish it could be otherwise because we all long to have someone with whom we can share our real personalities.
 
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