Dark Knight movie/plot discussion

[BassBomb]

Probably the best movie I have seen in a few years

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: edtsui
Saw it on IMAX and loved every moment of it.

I just think the biggest shame in an extremely well made movie like this are all the dilemmas, themes, and philosophical issues that just completely fly over most people's heads. Just reading the responses in this thread is kind of a disappointment because it seems like maybe only a handful of people actually picked up on these things.

100% agree. I felt that a lot of the philosophical points that were in No Country for Old Men was here as well... namely discussing the nature of evil and the fact that there have always been and will always be evil in the world, and frequently there will be no rhyme or reason to it. Also, they worked in Two-Face's element of chance beautifully. It wasn't as "deep" as Chigurh, but the same philosophy was there: with all the madness in the world, sometimes the only sanity is luck and chance.

The best part was, they worked all that in, but didn't let it take away from it just being a fun movie to watch.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: jiffer
He growls and hisses like an animal in the comic books. It's supposed to give the impression that he's not completely human. When you read a comic book and imagine those sounds in your mind, they're perfect. Unfortunately, a movie with a human actor is limited by the actor's human voice, so it's probably impossible to get the sounds just right.

The voice gets to me after awhile, but I take it as he needs to disguise his voice or else people will eventually notice based on interaction with Bruce Wayne. So he changes his voice to sound like a 60 year-old chain smoker .

Originally posted by: cruzer
Anyone else unhappy with the casting of Maggie Gyllenhaal as Rachel? Howard Stern was right - she didn't have the looks to pull it off, her face was literally drooping in some closeups. Maybe the producers realized this and pushed to have her character killed off.

She looked very old and even in the previews, I thought she looked quite unattractive.

 

[BZeto]

The unrealistic aspects of it bothered me (I know its a comic book movie right?!?). When Batman was wailing on Joker in the interogation room, Joker didn't even bleed or show any signs of getting wounded... I mean Batman broke the glass with Jokers head for crying out loud.
Then towards the end when they're on the building and Batman shoots those blades in Jokers face, seconds later you wouldn't even know he did it.

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: BZeto
The unrealistic aspects of it bothered me (I know its a comic book movie right?!?). When Batman was wailing on Joker in the interogation room, Joker didn't even bleed or show any signs of getting wounded... I mean Batman broke the glass with Jokers head for crying out loud.
Then towards the end when they're on the building and Batman shoots those blades in Jokers face, seconds later you wouldn't even know he did it.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, but I wonder if it was doen that way to keep the PG-13 rating.

KT

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: BZeto
The unrealistic aspects of it bothered me (I know its a comic book movie right?!?). When Batman was wailing on Joker in the interogation room, Joker didn't even bleed or show any signs of getting wounded... I mean Batman broke the glass with Jokers head for crying out loud.
Then towards the end when they're on the building and Batman shoots those blades in Jokers face, seconds later you wouldn't even know he did it.

I agree. I like the first batman better. This batman was cleaned up. It was like a saturday morning cartoon. Lots of fighting, but not really any death or repercussions that would happen in the real world (yea, I know this is a comic book movie.. but its suppose to be more tilted towards realsim).

Batman really didn't hurt anyone. When he did "beat up" people. It didn't really cause any harm -- it was just all for effect. This is especially true in the Joker scenes. Come on!!! No blood.. no bruises.. The joker was no worse than before the beating..

Yea, there was a death to the main girl - Rachel. But in this movie, she had so little screen time, that she could have been considered a minor character. The death just seemed to me like canon folder... like the multitude of explosions in this movie that does nothing to flesh out the main characters - out of which, Rachel was not a main character.

In this movie, where batman is suppose to be a badass, why does he even save the Joker on the building when the joker killed the love of his life -- Rachel? In this movie, I felt batman was just like superman -- a boyscout; yea, he punches things now and then, but his punches do nothing!!!

The only character that had was really flesh out was the joker. But then, I excepted the joker to be a more evil character -- more unstable. But for some reason, it seemed like the joker had a man crush on batman and that batman had a man crush on the joker. Come on batman.. just kill the joker already or vice versa!!! Also, the joker never really was unstable.. there were always reason why he killed someone.. E.g., time ran out for batman to do this or that.. so blablbabab had to die. Or this guys a criminal, so he'll do the pencil trick.. Everybody the joker killed.. they're was a reason. I like my crazies to be crazies.. to kill with no rhyme or reason.. in which case, this joker did not fit the bill.


Yea.. so this batman was good.. They're more explosions..I liked it.. but it wasn't as good as the first which had better character development. In the first movie, it was about batman and his search in finding who he was. In this movie, the dark night, it can be argued that it was about good and evil... and a whole lot of explosions and sound.. maybe too much explosions and sound. the motif of "good and evil" was not really expounded on..

 

[Phaeded]

Originally posted by: FreshPrince
WTH was up with the joker card in the papers as the judge sentenced all the mob? I can't figure that part out...
.

It's shows the Joker setting the Judge up as a target, and remember that when they got the joker card it had DnA from each of his three next targets on it. she touched the card, so perhaps skincells provided this. Tho I'd think breaking into her house and taking some hair from a hairbrush would be easier.

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Yet Another Batman Movie

I don't understand what made Ledger's charactor the Joker.. A sociopath with some makeup on? thats all they got? Thats a pretty shallow definition. The pencil disappearing was great, but after that it went to guns, knives and bombs. Nothing Joker about that.

Why did they have to say Batman killed those 5 people at the end, why not blame it on the Jokers men?

Joker's whole speech to Two-face in the hospital tells us why the Joker is the Joker. He considers himself an agent of chaos, out to stir up trouble and turn the order of Gotham upside down. The Joker persona could be that he makes jokes out of things that would not be found funny in ordered society, like sociopathic behavior. the pencil trick is a joke on a small scale, but to make jokes on a large scale takes guns and bombs etc. The end scene where he has the hostages dressed up like clowns and his gang mambers dressed up like hostages isn't a strategy he thought up to defeat the swat, but just another big joke.

How he became the joker is not covered in the movie, in fact he gives us two completely different stories about how he got his "smile" scars. He tells one person that his abusive father cut him, and he tells another that he cut himself.

i'm by no means an expert on the comic, the movie, or the joker, but I saw it yesterday for the first time and that's my impression of it.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: JEDI

Lt Gordon gets promoted to Commisioner?! holy skipping ranks Batman!

Political move by the mayor.

He was promoted from Lieutenant to head of special crimes or something before he was promoted to Commissioner...

but yeah, it basically wasn't hard for Gordon to move up because Batman was shaking up everything, not just the criminals. Gordon being one of the only truly good cops, one of the hardest working ones, and working close (at least relatively speaking) with Batman since day 1, it was only natural that he move up so quickly, especially when people above him were either being run out due to corruption or even death...

Originally posted by: BZeto
The unrealistic aspects of it bothered me (I know its a comic book movie right?!?). When Batman was wailing on Joker in the interogation room, Joker didn't even bleed or show any signs of getting wounded... I mean Batman broke the glass with Jokers head for crying out loud.
Then towards the end when they're on the building and Batman shoots those blades in Jokers face, seconds later you wouldn't even know he did it.

I wasn't exactly paying attention to seemingly trivial details during these parts, although I'm sure subsequent viewings will have me paying more attention to such things, but I think its possible that with ridiculous amount of makeup Joker was wearing, it might be possible that such wounds and injuries would remain relatively hidden.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: eleison


The only character that had was really flesh out was the joker. But then, I excepted the joker to be a more evil character -- more unstable. But for some reason, it seemed like the joker had a man crush on batman and that batman had a man crush on the joker. Come on batman.. just kill the joker already or vice versa!!! Also, the joker never really was unstable.. there were always reason why he killed someone.. E.g., time ran out for batman to do this or that.. so blablbabab had to die. Or this guys a criminal, so he'll do the pencil trick.. Everybody the joker killed.. they're was a reason. I like my crazies to be crazies.. to kill with no rhyme or reason.. in which case, this joker did not fit the bill.

The can't kill each other because they both need the other. You can't have chaos without order and vice versa.

Just because The Joker's "insane" doesn't mean he does things without rhyme or reason.

 

[EKKC]

they have to keep Ledger's pretty face makeup.

did anyone stay till after the credits? was there anything at the end? i guess there wasn't.

i think they will never run out of villains for the batman movie franchise. i mean looking at his rogue's gallery, there's still ivy, bane, catwoman, freeze, riddler, penguin, and others that never appeared in a movie like Clayface, Ratcatcher, Manbat, Madhatter, Croc, and Scarface. and i probably named only like 1/4 of them.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: EKKC
they have to keep Ledger's pretty face makeup.

did anyone stay till after the credits? was there anything at the end? i guess there wasn't.

i think they will never run out of villains for the batman movie franchise. i mean looking at his rogue's gallery, there's still ivy, bane, catwoman, freeze, riddler, penguin, and others that never appeared in a movie like Clayface, Ratcatcher, Manbat, Madhatter, Croc, and Scarface. and i probably named only like 1/4 of them.

I waited, there was nothing else

 

[anxi80]

for a second there i forgot it was a pg-13 movie and was expecting a 'pans labyrinth'-type scene when the joker had his knife in the corner of spawn's mouth. if you've never seen 'pans' just be fortunate that in this movie they cut away.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: eleison


The only character that had was really flesh out was the joker. But then, I excepted the joker to be a more evil character -- more unstable. But for some reason, it seemed like the joker had a man crush on batman and that batman had a man crush on the joker. Come on batman.. just kill the joker already or vice versa!!! Also, the joker never really was unstable.. there were always reason why he killed someone.. E.g., time ran out for batman to do this or that.. so blablbabab had to die. Or this guys a criminal, so he'll do the pencil trick.. Everybody the joker killed.. they're was a reason. I like my crazies to be crazies.. to kill with no rhyme or reason.. in which case, this joker did not fit the bill.

The can't kill each other because they both need the other. You can't have chaos without order and vice versa.

Just because The Joker's "insane" doesn't mean he does things without rhyme or reason.

Thats weak sauce. They dont need each other. If the joker was dead, batman can get back to his "real life"... Remember that was what he was planning to do via Arthur dent. If the joker killed batman, then there will surely be another hero or the world would fall into utter chaos.. which the joker liked according to his speeches chaos.

All in all, it was a man crush by both characters. It just doesn't make sense otherwise: "Oh, I cann't try to kill you because you are my exact opposite!!!!"

Lets examine real life conflicts. In ww2, the allied soldiers didn't say... "Hey, SS soldier looks like I got you pinned down... since you are the epitome of evil and I'm suppose to be the epitome of good... Hey, I'll let you go so we can meet each other in the future sometime..." No they didn't do that.. they REALLY tried to kill each other using whatever method they had.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: EKKC
they have to keep Ledger's pretty face makeup.

did anyone stay till after the credits? was there anything at the end? i guess there wasn't.

i think they will never run out of villains for the batman movie franchise. i mean looking at his rogue's gallery, there's still ivy, bane, catwoman, freeze, riddler, penguin, and others that never appeared in a movie like Clayface, Ratcatcher, Manbat, Madhatter, Croc, and Scarface. and i probably named only like 1/4 of them.

I waited, there was nothing else

Yeah the IMAX guy said over the PA that there was no special scene at the end of the movie. We did have some elitists sitting behind us who basically said 'I can't believe people would leave during the credits! The movie is not over!' Ah there are some in every crowd I guess.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Originally posted by: BassBomb

Originally posted by: EKKC
they have to keep Ledger's pretty face makeup.

did anyone stay till after the credits? was there anything at the end? i guess there wasn't.

i think they will never run out of villains for the batman movie franchise. i mean looking at his rogue's gallery, there's still ivy, bane, catwoman, freeze, riddler, penguin, and others that never appeared in a movie like Clayface, Ratcatcher, Manbat, Madhatter, Croc, and Scarface. and i probably named only like 1/4 of them.

I waited, there was nothing else

Yeah the IMAX guy said over the PA that there was no special scene at the end of the movie. We did have some elitists sitting behind us who basically said 'I can't believe people would leave during the credits! The movie is not over!' Ah there are some in every crowd I guess.

I generally don't mind sitting back and chilling while everyone is all antsy and plays the sheep game to try and get out ASAP so they can beat the traffic, which they never will.

I also don't mind skimming the credits to acknowledge some names of crew (even if I'll never remember them) such as Heath's makeup artist...that guy definitely deserved his credit placed a bit higher than it was

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: eleison


The only character that had was really flesh out was the joker. But then, I excepted the joker to be a more evil character -- more unstable. But for some reason, it seemed like the joker had a man crush on batman and that batman had a man crush on the joker. Come on batman.. just kill the joker already or vice versa!!! Also, the joker never really was unstable.. there were always reason why he killed someone.. E.g., time ran out for batman to do this or that.. so blablbabab had to die. Or this guys a criminal, so he'll do the pencil trick.. Everybody the joker killed.. they're was a reason. I like my crazies to be crazies.. to kill with no rhyme or reason.. in which case, this joker did not fit the bill.

The can't kill each other because they both need the other. You can't have chaos without order and vice versa.

Just because The Joker's "insane" doesn't mean he does things without rhyme or reason.

Thats weak sauce. They dont need each other. If the joker was dead, batman can get back to his "real life"... Remember that was what he was planning to do via Arthur dent. If the joker killed batman, then there will surely be another hero or the world would fall into utter chaos.. which the joker liked according to his speeches chaos.

All in all, it was a man crush by both characters. It just doesn't make sense otherwise: "Oh, I cann't try to kill you because you are my exact opposite!!!!"

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

That's why Batman can't kill The Joker. If he kills The Joker, he becomes what he is fighting. The Joker can't kill Batman because he would rather corrupt Batman towards the side of chaos. It's not a man crush as you describe. It's an internal struggle within Batman to stick with his moral code even when it's not convenient or easy.

 

[jiffer]

Originally posted by: BZeto
The unrealistic aspects of it bothered me (I know its a comic book movie right?!?). When Batman was wailing on Joker in the interogation room, Joker didn't even bleed or show any signs of getting wounded... I mean Batman broke the glass with Jokers head for crying out loud.
Then towards the end when they're on the building and Batman shoots those blades in Jokers face, seconds later you wouldn't even know he did it.

Just out of curiosity, did you watch the Spider-Man movies, and were you bothered by the fact that a genetically-altered young man who weighs maybe 130 pounds expends at least 100,000 calories of energy a day doing the things he does and expels a ton or two of web from his body every day? Where does all of that matter and energy come from? It's physically impossible. He would have to be eating constantly, but he's too busy to eat and he can barely afford any food.

Same with Venom. I can accept the idea that an alien symbiote fell to Earth and developed an affinity for Peter Parker, who just happened to be passing by at the right place and the right time. But four tons of black goo in one day?

That's almost as bad as sand that can fly without any visible means of propulsion. I mean, what are we talking about? Anti-gravity? Expulsion of radioactive particles from each grain of sand without leaving a deadly radioactive trail? How can you ignore things like that?

 

[jiffer]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: BZeto
The unrealistic aspects of it bothered me (I know its a comic book movie right?!?). When Batman was wailing on Joker in the interogation room, Joker didn't even bleed or show any signs of getting wounded... I mean Batman broke the glass with Jokers head for crying out loud.
Then towards the end when they're on the building and Batman shoots those blades in Jokers face, seconds later you wouldn't even know he did it.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, but I wonder if it was doen that way to keep the PG-13 rating.

KT

What rating did Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith have? How does repeated dismemberment and a man being burned alive compare to a few blades in the face?

For that matter, how do a few blades in the face compare to a man who has half of his face burned off, in the very same movie?

I don't think we're seeing the result of a movie rating; I think we're seeing the result of a decision on the part of the director and the producers. (Same with the gangster who was cut into pieces and fed to the dogs, and the Chinese guy who was burned to death on top of the big pile of money.)

I bet they did a beautiful job on the Joker's makeup, but we just couldn't see it because it flashed past the screen so fast. I had the same complaint about many scenes in Batman Begins, in which beautiful images flashed past our eyes too fast to see them. (Freeze-frame and screen captures really came in handy.)

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: eleison
Thats weak sauce. They dont need each other. If the joker was dead, batman can get back to his "real life"... Remember that was what he was planning to do via Arthur dent. If the joker killed batman, then there will surely be another hero or the world would fall into utter chaos.. which the joker liked according to his speeches chaos.

All in all, it was a man crush by both characters. It just doesn't make sense otherwise: "Oh, I cann't try to kill you because you are my exact opposite!!!!"

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

That's why Batman can't kill The Joker. If he kills The Joker, he becomes what he is fighting. The Joker can't kill Batman because he would rather corrupt Batman towards the side of chaos. It's not a man crush as you describe. It's an internal struggle within Batman to stick with his moral code even when it's not convenient or easy.

Your quote from Nietzsche hit the bulls-eye. But they have a man-crush on each other, too. This is Batman, and his costume and story have always had homoerotic understones. Just accept it.

By the way, Arthur Dent?

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

Originally posted by: jiffer
Just out of curiosity, did you watch the Spider-Man movies, and were you bothered by the fact that a genetically-altered young man who weighs maybe 130 pounds expends at least 100,000 calories of energy a day doing the things he does and expels a ton or two of web from his body every day? Where does all of that matter and energy come from? It's physically impossible. He would have to be eating constantly, but he's too busy to eat and he can barely afford any food.

He doesnt expel a ton or two of web from his body. He created the web because he's damn smart and the movies don't even show that.

 

[BassBomb]

Originally posted by: ChAoTiCpInOy

Originally posted by: jiffer
Just out of curiosity, did you watch the Spider-Man movies, and were you bothered by the fact that a genetically-altered young man who weighs maybe 130 pounds expends at least 100,000 calories of energy a day doing the things he does and expels a ton or two of web from his body every day? Where does all of that matter and energy come from? It's physically impossible. He would have to be eating constantly, but he's too busy to eat and he can barely afford any food.[\q]

He doesnt expel a ton or two of web from his body. He created the web because he's damn smart and the movies don't even show that.

Marvel movies ream the original stories pretty badly.. in the movie you see his webs coming from his arms not from cartridge shooter he built

 

[smashp]

The movie was great. I knew Harvey Dent was in the movie but was expecting the transformation to be a setup for a sequal.

the whole "white knight" description of Dent leading to the end where Batman is the "Dark Knight" was good.

Personally i felt the movie was more of an ensable cast, but used all the characters to build up Batman.

I mean you saw the inner turmoil of Batman/Wayne

With his love and loss of Rachael

His willingness to put all his faith in Harvey

Gordon being so unoruptable and resiliant and how Batman felt about his loss

The guidence of Alfred and Fox

And the Ability of the Joker to push Batman to the extreme to the point where Batman crosses over the line and losses self control

I fell that Nolan has done an excellent Job on his casting efforts in his 2 batman movies. He has really gotten some great performances out of the actors. the effort of the storyline and the character acting just destoys what The original frachise became, an attempt to Cash in.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: BassBomb
Marvel movies ream the original stories pretty badly.. in the movie you see his webs coming from his arms not from cartridge shooter he built

If I remember correctly, the movies are based off of Ultimate Spiderman in which he gained the ability to shoot webs rather than relying on cartridges like the original Spiderman.

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: jiffer

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: BZeto
The unrealistic aspects of it bothered me (I know its a comic book movie right?!?). When Batman was wailing on Joker in the interogation room, Joker didn't even bleed or show any signs of getting wounded... I mean Batman broke the glass with Jokers head for crying out loud.
Then towards the end when they're on the building and Batman shoots those blades in Jokers face, seconds later you wouldn't even know he did it.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, but I wonder if it was doen that way to keep the PG-13 rating.

KT

What rating did Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith have? How does repeated dismemberment and a man being burned alive compare to a few blades in the face?

For that matter, how do a few blades in the face compare to a man who has half of his face burned off, in the very same movie?

I don't think we're seeing the result of a movie rating; I think we're seeing the result of a decision on the part of the director and the producers. (Same with the gangster who was cut into pieces and fed to the dogs, and the Chinese guy who was burned to death on top of the big pile of money.)

I bet they did a beautiful job on the Joker's makeup, but we just couldn't see it because it flashed past the screen so fast. I had the same complaint about many scenes in Batman Begins, in which beautiful images flashed past our eyes too fast to see them. (Freeze-frame and screen captures really came in handy.)

I just do not recall much in the way of actual blood anywhere in the movie and I thought blood may be something that was looked at by the ratings board. I'm not sure, but was just thinking it may be a possibility.

Movie ratings are quite ridiculous since you can show repeated acts of violence and get away with a PG-13, but show a nipple and you're slapped with an R, so it seems to me they may be able to show all of those other things and get aay with it, but once you start showing blood you may be in trouble. Again, I'm just speculating and have no idea if that is true.

KT

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: eleison


The only character that had was really flesh out was the joker. But then, I excepted the joker to be a more evil character -- more unstable. But for some reason, it seemed like the joker had a man crush on batman and that batman had a man crush on the joker. Come on batman.. just kill the joker already or vice versa!!! Also, the joker never really was unstable.. there were always reason why he killed someone.. E.g., time ran out for batman to do this or that.. so blablbabab had to die. Or this guys a criminal, so he'll do the pencil trick.. Everybody the joker killed.. they're was a reason. I like my crazies to be crazies.. to kill with no rhyme or reason.. in which case, this joker did not fit the bill.

The can't kill each other because they both need the other. You can't have chaos without order and vice versa.

Just because The Joker's "insane" doesn't mean he does things without rhyme or reason.

Thats weak sauce. They dont need each other. If the joker was dead, batman can get back to his "real life"... Remember that was what he was planning to do via Arthur dent. If the joker killed batman, then there will surely be another hero or the world would fall into utter chaos.. which the joker liked according to his speeches chaos.

All in all, it was a man crush by both characters. It just doesn't make sense otherwise: "Oh, I cann't try to kill you because you are my exact opposite!!!!"

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

That's why Batman can't kill The Joker. If he kills The Joker, he becomes what he is fighting. The Joker can't kill Batman because he would rather corrupt Batman towards the side of chaos. It's not a man crush as you describe. It's an internal struggle within Batman to stick with his moral code even when it's not convenient or easy.

Weak... in the first movie, by not saving Ra's al Ghul from the train wreck which batman created himself and by engaging in fighing with Ra agul on the train in order to draw attention away from the ultimate crash .. Batman did in fact commit murder. In the first movie.. batman was a monster -- deep and dark. In this movie, he's more of a saturday morning cartoon hero with a man crush. Minus well give both batman and the joker a dildo and a hotel room for the night because..... This batman's gay!!

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: eleison


The only character that had was really flesh out was the joker. But then, I excepted the joker to be a more evil character -- more unstable. But for some reason, it seemed like the joker had a man crush on batman and that batman had a man crush on the joker. Come on batman.. just kill the joker already or vice versa!!! Also, the joker never really was unstable.. there were always reason why he killed someone.. E.g., time ran out for batman to do this or that.. so blablbabab had to die. Or this guys a criminal, so he'll do the pencil trick.. Everybody the joker killed.. they're was a reason. I like my crazies to be crazies.. to kill with no rhyme or reason.. in which case, this joker did not fit the bill.

The can't kill each other because they both need the other. You can't have chaos without order and vice versa.

Just because The Joker's "insane" doesn't mean he does things without rhyme or reason.

Thats weak sauce. They dont need each other. If the joker was dead, batman can get back to his "real life"... Remember that was what he was planning to do via Arthur dent. If the joker killed batman, then there will surely be another hero or the world would fall into utter chaos.. which the joker liked according to his speeches chaos.

All in all, it was a man crush by both characters. It just doesn't make sense otherwise: "Oh, I cann't try to kill you because you are my exact opposite!!!!"

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

That's why Batman can't kill The Joker. If he kills The Joker, he becomes what he is fighting. The Joker can't kill Batman because he would rather corrupt Batman towards the side of chaos. It's not a man crush as you describe. It's an internal struggle within Batman to stick with his moral code even when it's not convenient or easy.

Weak... in the first movie, by not saving Ra's al Ghul from the train wreck which batman created himself and by engaging in fighing with Ra agul on the train in order to draw attention away from the ultimate crash .. Batman did in fact commit murder. In the first movie.. batman was a monster -- deep and dark. In this movie, he's more of a saturday morning cartoon hero with a man crush. Minus well give both batman and the joker a dildo and a hotel room for the night because..... This batman's gay!!

I give up. You just don't get it.