DaveB3D 3dfx and nVidia

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Sohcan

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,127
0
0


<< You ppl are a bunch of a$$ kissers >>

Yeah, that's a good idea...let's call Benskywalker, one of the most valuable assets of this forum, an a$$ kisser...I'm sure that will change his mind about leaving.
 

Rectalfier

Golden Member
Nov 21, 1999
1,589
0
0
What's going on did Dave get banned? He likes to argue, but he definately wasn't a troll.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
 

Mikewarrior2

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 1999
7,132
0
0
Once again, the general tone has been one of dissent at DaveB3d SOLEY because he works for 3dfx. This isn't a case of Bubba saying something dumb, but rather blatant attacks on someone just because of who he works for.

What kind of crap is that? Don't agree with his &quot;bias&quot;? FINE! Does that give you a right to flame him for no real reason? Hell NO!

Again, I personally do not always agree with DaveB3d's tone, nor do I always agree with his belief's. Does that mean one has nothing to learn from him? DaveB3d is certainly very knowlegdeable, and you would be doing a disservice to the bbs if you were among those causing him to leave this forum.
 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
0
0
Why would anyone leave? These types of arguements have been
going on forever.

I have never met Dave, and I have no personal beef with him, and don't read all the forum messages so I dont know everything going on with him and the other users

this is what pissed me off
 

Mikewarrior2

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 1999
7,132
0
0
RickN,

Its called getting tired of ignorance and constant unfounded bashing, and could easily drive one off a bbs. Hardware won't leave because i'm sure he knows the bashing is justified, and he gets a kick out of getting a response out of people. DaveB3d may just one day say that he's had enough of people flaming him.

Also, while his attitude on the thread you linked may not have been very good, he was defending a friend. WOuld you not defend a friend if you found him attacked(in a bbs)? If anything, he was being a good,loyal friend. Everyone took it a bit personally, IMO.


Mike
 

Ben88

Senior member
Sep 21, 2000
515
0
0
If my friend made comments like Bubba has made in the past I sure as hell wouldn't defend him and that is the god honest truth.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,995
126
While I agree there are trolling zealots who consistently attack Dave, let's not forget that Dave is just like any other member of this forum and isn't somehow elevated in status. If he makes controversial statements he should expect to be questioned, just like anybody else would be.
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
46
91
I'll second that BFG...not even Anand gets let off easy when he posts in here
 

Mikewarrior2

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 1999
7,132
0
0
Its true that we don't know Bubba. He is PR, and that is really his job. He did stick his foot in his mouth over the K-Mart comment, but that was in a private e-mail.

BFG10k,

You can question him, but the flames that have been launched in his direction are not questions, but attacks.


Mike
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
46
91
Attacks? The only person that I have seen to &quot;attack&quot; Dave is Hardware.
 

Fozzie

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
512
0
0
I'll bring up a different side to this then simply arguing about bias. Just like the people who were flaming Dave were getting out of hand I think its getting a little overblown in the other direction now. I haven't seen many more serious attacks on Dave then on any well known forum/web personality. If you don't have the thickness of skin to handle it then get out of the kitchen. Though understand I am not defending those individuals in anyway. However I feel that Dave's responses to some of those situations did not reflect on himself or 3dfx well.

Saying that its simply his opinion as a person is ignoring that things do change when you join a company. I agree with the person who brought up PM as an example. Others are people like Paul DeMone and Simon Feaney(sp) are examples of how one can be on the payroll of a tech company and still be active in a community.

However with that said I see this thread as part of the policing that a community will do to try and fix problems. I'm not saying ad hominem attacks on Dave need to be tolerated, rather treated for what they are. Also we don't want to be in a situation where you have to walk on eggshells around a person like I have seen in other forums/newgroups in similiar situations.

*edit - cleanup*
 

HaVoC

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,223
0
0
Very well said, Fozzie. Dave is welcome to post here and others are welcome to constructively criticize his ideas without ad hominem attacks. I think Ben is a great example to follow of how to post effectively.
 

Pete

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
4,953
0
0
START DELIVERING. START PUSHING THE ENVELOPE.

Dave is not 3dfx!!! He just works there! You people are going to drive away the vast majority of intelligent posters here with your poorly-thought out personal attacks, and you'll be left with only yourselves to bicker amongst. I can't believe more members of this forum seem to back Hardware than Dave! If you value stupidity and ignorance and a desire to bait, then by all means, support Hardware. But know you're doing yourselves a disservice by harassing Dave. I'm not saying he's untouchable, but most responses to his posts seem to be out to prove something other than the relevant material, for no other reason than the self-gratification of the poster. Don't be angry at him just because he knows more than you and isn't allowed to tell, children. It's getting intolerable.

The tone of his posts insinuates that Anandtech readers are bunch of clueless dinks who know nothing of the hardware market.

Just because you read about/sell/buy hardware doesn't mean you have the same level of knowledge as Dave, who actually works for a company because he KNOWS MORE THAN MOST OF US. And yes, normally people in the business will know more than those not, even about competitors' products. If you think fan sites have a good system of getting advance info, what about the companies whose futures depend on it?

I don't blame people for flaming him. He brings it on himself by starting it.

The kind of people who believe flaming is a valid and constructive response are the kind of people who should leave this forum to those who actually want to hold meaningful discussions.

I have no bias against any of the 3d chip makers.

Who cares. It's your bias against holding useful, civilized discussion that's at issue.

I have no problem when dave hypes 3dfx products but bashing on nvida without any fact is another thing!


I have a problem with people who post specifically to bait others into flame wars. Hardware, all of your posts that I read are mostly little or porrly informed opinion, yet you push it off as fact. Then you get angry at people like Dave, who declares in his sig that it's only his opinion that he's posting, even though it's more fact than anything I'm aware you've had to say.

there are numerous senior members who have directly critisized Dave.

Are you honestly impressed by the fact that they're &quot;senior?&quot; That might just mean they have nothing more important to do than spend all their time here. Just as knowledge isn't a precursor to credibility, neither is a title.

Fozzie summed it up impeccably. If you can understand what he wrote, you'd do well do follow it.
 

Adul

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
32,999
44
91
danny.tangtam.com
Well Said Pete and Fozzie. I sure hope dave is reading this. We do appriciate you comments dave and knowledge. It just some of the more thick headed members of this forum can't manage a higher level of debate.
 

rickn

Diamond Member
Oct 15, 1999
7,064
0
0
Pete: you are very good at unconstructive babble. The tone of your post is probably the worst of all the posts in this thread, and you have the gull to critisize others. I have never attacked Dave on a personal level. He probably does know more than most people here, that doesnt mean that it is all factual. You think he is privy to the inner workings of Nvidia or ATI? I very much doubt it. Do you honestly think if he asks Nvidia if they are going to go with Tile based rendering that they are gonna just openly put out their playing cards. You think he has a NDA with them, when working for 3dfx?

He is 3dfx. He works for them, he comes to this forum, makes statements about future technologies, very seldom has anything useful or nice to say about competitors products. It gets quite annoying listening to people babble on about their products, critisize their competitors products(he has a way of structuring his sentences in a way that they come out in a very derogatory way without acutally slamming the product directly), yet they can't even deliver their own products on a timely basis. What part of this can't you comprehend?

And personally, I could care less who leaves. I have as much right to express my opinion as everyone else. I have been posting to Anands forums since around 1996 or 1997, and I have seen it much worse than this
 

Pete

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
4,953
0
0
Pete: you are very good at unconstructive babble. The tone of your post is
Yes, I am, but I don't think my previous post exhibited that tendency to a greater degree than any other post in this thread.

probably the worst of all the posts in this thread, and you have the gull to critisize others. I have never attacked Dave on a personal level. He


<< Some people just don't know when to shup up. Obviously that must be a hiring requirement at 3dfx. >>



probably does know more than most people here, that doesnt mean that it is all factual. You think he is privy to the inner workings of Nvidia or ATI?
WHAT? Do you even realize what you are saying? Knowledge usually requires truth. This isn't religion, it's video cards.

I very much doubt it. Do you honestly think if he asks Nvidia if they are going to go with Tile based rendering that they are gonna just openly put out their playing cards. You think he has a NDA with them, when working for 3dfx?
OK, how do us fanboys get info? Through leaks. Don't you think other graphics card makers would have better leaks than us, simply because it means more to them than it does to us?

He is 3dfx. He works for them, he comes to this forum, makes statements about future technologies, very seldom has anything useful or nice to say about competitors products. It gets quite annoying listening to people babble on about their products, critisize their competitors products, yet they can't even deliver their own products on a timely basis. What part of this can't you comprehend?
He works for 3dfx, he is not them. Maybe if the people on this board would ask him rather than antagonize him, they'll get more of his knowledge than his anger. What's your obsession with &quot;products on a timely basis?&quot; Do you own stock in 3dfx? Is your life in any way tied to their release schedule? Do you think they're not allowed to talk because they haven't been #1 recently? Well, I think they can fall back on their previous track record for just a little bit longer.

Speaking of comprehension, I think we just don't see the issue the same way. You think it's OK to attack one man, who just started working somewhere, who wasn't in any way responsible for 3dfx's past actions, and who happens to like them, just because of those facts. I don't. I value his intelligent opinion more than your hating him for illegitimate reasons.

Many people seem to have an issue with him knowing more about nVidia than they do. I don't see arguing that point as constructive, but rather an inferiority issue or something equally insignificant.

It's true, he's young, and sometimes he's not as even-tempered as we'd all like to be. But that same thing can be said of many people on this forum. I don't see what singles himout so much as to drive people to come into this thread and continue to attack him. Because he works at 3dfx? Again, it seems to be a case of someone attacking something b/c it has a 3dfx label on it. Well folks, he's a person, not a video card. He brings a fairly in-depth knowledge of 3D cards to the table, not FSAA or a separate power supply.

OK, this topic isn't worth any more of my time. I agree with Ben's point, and I'm not going to accomplish anything by attempting to convert ppl to his view. I just felt compelled to post because I've been seeing more junk posts than useful ones recently, and it got under my skin, as it's sapping the fun out of these forums. I apologize if this is more of my unconstructive babble.
 

AlabamaMan

Junior Member
Nov 1, 2000
19
0
0
I have misjudged Dave once, but since we are discussing him I would like mention something that I did not particularly like.

In one of the threads Dave said, (and I quote): &quot;Simple: Geforce T&amp;L sucks! &quot;.

A few days later, a member of Sacrifice team made a positive comment about Geforce T&amp;L, and within ours Dave has responded to that comment on every message board in existence. In one of theses threads, he all but implied that the guy was lying.

I am sure there are many ways to explain this, but it did strike me as odd.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
rickn-

&quot;I got my feelings hurt on Anands BBS. I'm leaving! **rolls eyes**&quot;

You just don't get it do you? You don't understand the reasoning do you?

There is no point posting here if it only results in childish rantings.

Feelings? Please. What about the complete lack of intelligent discussion. The &quot;IQ level&quot; of the discussions on this forum has dropped significantly as of late, and it wasn't all that great overall to begin with. This is due to people's inability to keep their mouths shut if they don't have anything useful to say.

It is becoming a waste of time to post on these boards.

The issues with Dave are just an amplification of problems that we have had for some time. This isn't about bashing someone's views, this is ignorant bashing unrelated to the topic at hand. This board has a rather poor reputation, and I find that bothersome. Perhaps you don't, but I would think that any of us that have been around for several years would. We certainly have seen periods where this starts up and vanishes, but the level we are currently seeing is become the norm, and has been for quite some time.

&quot;You ppl are a bunch of a$$ kissers.&quot;

Who is? If you are insinuating that I am trying to kiss Dave's @ss, I'm left scratching my head. WTF do I, or anyone else for that matter, have to gain by kissing up to Dave? I want to keep posting here as he is the type of poster that I would like to see more of on this board.

If anything, speaking for myself at least, I have nothing in the world to gain by kissing up to Dave, and in many aspects could be hurt in one way or another by doing it. I won't go into details, but there are at least a few people here who know what I am talking about. Even excluding external factors, he is someone who disagrees with me strongly about several different things and can aruge the points, in a manner in which most people here can't.

The only thing that I have to &quot;gain&quot; by Dave sticking around is better discussions, nothing more. I assume that the same can be said for the others who are speaking up on this subject matter.

HaVoC-

&quot;I will give him credit in saying in the last several threads Dave3D has really toned it down and provided more insightful knowledge rather than flame fodder.&quot;

He has more control then I do, that's for sure. Dave is human, he does get fired up when he keeps getting BS thrown at him. I know for d@mn sure I wouldn't be anywhere near as tollerant as he has been, nor would most people here.

BFG-

&quot;While I agree there are trolling zealots who consistently attack Dave, let's not forget that Dave is just like any other member of this forum and isn't somehow elevated in status. If he makes controversial statements he should expect to be questioned, just like anybody else would be.&quot;

I agree, but he is getting hammered for anything he says. I know that you will understand when I say it is like when Robo and I go at it, except it seems to be a very large number of people against Dave, and they are not pointing anything out in a constructive manner. There used to be good threads about upcoming technology, speculation, and current technology in GH concerning vid cards, it is now very difficult to find one in the first several hundred topics(particularly considering the increased popularity of them that always accompanies an upcoming generation).

NFS4-

&quot;I'll second that BFG...not even Anand gets let off easy when he posts in here&quot;

What if people just kept telling Anand over and over he doesn't know what he is talking about and is very biased? Every thread he stepped into he heard the same thing over and over? I have a great deal of respect for Anand and admire what he has accomplished a great deal, but I assume you know how old Dave is and what he has also accomplished. The fact that he was the webmaster for the most respected technical 3D hardware site for years before becoming what I would assume to be the youngest engineer ever hired at 3dfx, would make it an understandable fact that Dave does have some knowledge of what is going on in the industry. This seems to be the main point he is being attacked on.

&quot;Attacks? The only person that I have seen to &quot;attack&quot; Dave is Hardware.&quot;

They attack the fact that he knows certain things. This isn't a matter of opinion or viewpoint, if people(not you) would STFU and listen to what he has to say they may learn quite a bit about the upcoming boards and how they will work. Not everything is NDAd people, and much of what can be learned about the upcoming boards can be found out through MS, ignoring the board companies completely(not performance or specs, but what they will be doing at least as a baseline).

Fozzie-

&quot;I haven't seen many more serious attacks on Dave then on any well known forum/web personality. If you don't have the thickness of skin to handle it then get out of the kitchen.&quot;

I understand your point, but is it too much to expect some decent discussion? I haven't seen anyone point to one of Dave's articles and say X is wrong/biased, what do you have to say like they do with some other sites. They are simply hitting him with whatever they can. I am not trying to say that some heat can't be expected in his position, but it should at the very least have some basis.

&quot;I agree with the person who brought up PM as an example. Others are people like Paul DeMone and Simon Feaney(sp) are examples of how one can be on the payroll of a tech company and still be active in a community.&quot;

Using PM as an example, if the AMD loyalists/zealots flew off the handle at him all the time I would be saying the same d@mn thing, and would imagine that there would be a lot more support as he has been with the community for much longer(and he is a bit more calm then Dave).
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
46
91


<< NFS4-

&quot;I'll second that BFG...not even Anand gets let off easy when he posts in here&quot;

What if people just kept telling Anand over and over he doesn't know what he is talking about and is very biased? Every thread he stepped into he heard the same thing over and over? I have a great deal of respect for Anand and admire what he has accomplished a great deal, but I assume you know how old Dave is and what he has also accomplished. The fact that he was the webmaster for the most respected technical 3D hardware site for years before becoming what I would assume to be the youngest engineer ever hired at 3dfx, would make it an understandable fact that Dave does have some knowledge of what is going on in the industry. This seems to be the main point he is being attacked on.
>>


You are missing the point. When Anand steps in here, he's just like the rest of us posting on the forums and people are gonna say what they want to say plain and simple. I'm sure that Anand probably gets email saying that people don't like him or they don't like his testing methodology or what not. I'm quite sure that every webmaster does. But that doesn't discourage him. If it did, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

The fact of the matter is, when you post something here and people don't agree with your comments, they are gonna let you know NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE. That doesn't mean that you should flame the person though. There is NO excuse for constant flaming, but constructive criticism seems fair IMHO. No one is special just b/c of their &quot;status,&quot; who they work for, or who they are. When you post on the forums, you are one of &quot;us&quot; and you/we take it as such. You're a part of a living, breathing community.

I don't care if President Clinton or the Queen of England herself came in here and started posting. If he/she says something I don't like or makes a point that I don't feel is clear or needs clarification, they're going to hear it from me. I'm not just gonna keep my mouth shut and take it up the ass b/c he's the president or b/c she's the queen (Not pertaining to Dave or anything, but just generalizing).
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
Perhaps I didn't word that well enough-

&quot;NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE&quot;

The thing is that he is getting most of this sh!t because of who he is, not what he is saying. I agree with what you are saying, but the issue is the people who are going after him for who he is, not what he is saying.

&quot;When you post on the forums, you are one of &quot;us&quot; and you take it as such. You're a part of a living, breathing community.&quot;

And this community is becoming the slums because of the general attitude by many people(not saying you). Please, by all means, everyone fire away at anyone's points or comments, don't flame because of who someone is.

I still stand by my comments pertaining to upcoming products. When Anand announced that nVidia wasn't shipping the NV20 until this year, did he get bashed by a bunch of people saying that he couldn't possibly have that information?
 

superbaby

Senior member
Aug 11, 2000
464
0
0
IMO if you work for any company you should stay out of discussions regarding that company and it's competitors. If you say the wrong thing then it reflects badly on yourself and the company. Not to mention, if you post the wrong information or somehow leak a NDA then you will be in very, very big trouble.

Better to stay quiet and let your products speak for themselves. If they are good then people will know, if they aren't, there's no use defending them. You can prove they are wrong when your company shoots that press release out the window and silences all the naysayers.
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
46
91
Ben, I think that the problem is that people find it hard to seperate Dave's comments from the overall 3dfx innitiative and attitude towards their competitors.

For example, if Dave says that nVidia can't compete or their next solution will not be able to cut it b/c of not having some certain feature, people get images of Bubba, past 3dfx interviews which were none to kind to their competitors, etc. In other words, &quot;It's hard to seperate the man from the machine.&quot;

When Dave's comments conicide with things that we have been hearing from 3dfx all along concerning their products and their viewpoint of the &quot;enemy&quot; people take notice.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
&quot;When Dave's comments conicide with things that we have been hearing from 3dfx all along concerning their products and their viewpoint of the &quot;enemy&quot; people take notice.&quot;

I can see that, but there are many ways to disagree on those points with intelligent discussion. We haven't seen that. The line of thinking at 3dfx is not only held by them, Dave has had the same views on technology for quite some time now, long before he started working there.

There is more then one way to look at vide technology, instead of hearing differing viewpoints, we hear how it can't be that good, he doesn't know what he is talking about(comparing the strengths of GP to the weaknesses of nVidia). It seems the people on this board are assuming he has to be wrong because the traditional strengths of video cards plays heavily into GP technology which quite frankly is 100% accurate.

We are not seeing discussions on why that is, or what other ways there are to do things, just people bashing Dave for stating things about the relative performance. If you use traditional performance standards to judge the GP3 against the ~NV25 then it is should win, and handily. No discussions about that, just people bashing Dave assuming that he can't possibly be right.

Certain things are facts and are not arguable on an intelligent level.
 
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