David Ortiz. Hall of Fame?

[spaceman]

edgar who
if u think 3 ws
bright lights
crucible of fenway
wont be taken into acct by hof voters u havent been paying attention
barring some stupid ped nonsense
book it.hes in
visit this thread in 10 yrs to lol

 

[Ayrahvon]

As good a pure hitter Martinez is, Ortiz's amazing clutch hitting plus his stats that fit the number four slot better than Edgars, put Ortiz at the top, imo.

We actually have metrics that effectively calculate 'clutch.' Edgar beats Ortiz there as well. Ortiz is just more recent and memorable. Don't get me wrong, Ortiz is a beast, and has been a beast in the playoffs as well. I just think he will unfortunately not have enough years of being that good in the end.

 

[bradley]

Baseball is currently so corrupt and watered-down the HOF has become completely irrelevant. So it wouldn't surprise me if Ortiz makes the HOF.

And yes, Martinez is a substantially better (more well-rounded) hitter/player than Ortiz without question. I've never seen evidence of Martinez taking PEDs, but it wouldn't surprise me any longer if he indeed did.

 

[Ayrahvon]

Baseball is currently so corrupt and watered-down the HOF has become completely irrelevant. So it wouldn't surprise me if Ortiz makes the HOF.

And yes, Martinez is a substantially better (more well-rounded) hitter/player than Ortiz without question. I've never seen evidence of Martinez taking PEDs, but it wouldn't surprise me any longer if he indeed did.

No player would surprise me in that regard, but I also don't think it should count against them for the HoF. Baseball for years looked the other way (and profited from players using the drugs), and there are countless known players who used drugs that are already in the hall.

I'd love to see the hall change how the vote is done, but I don't see that happening either. I agree that it is basically irrelevant, especially when two of the greatest hitters and players in baseball are not represented.

 

[BUTCH1]

Big Papi is a "lovable" fan favorite who somehow gets a pass for his constant asshole showboating. And he has come through in some memorable clutch moments. But a DH is not a true baseball player, imho. It's a Junior Circuit fan confection, not all that dissimilar to mascots in big fuzzy suits and free bobblehead night.

The discussion on who should get into the HOF among active players but most surely won't because his career stats sadly don't measure up should begin and end with one of the best all-around players of his generation, Chase Utley.

And no, sadly, if I were a HOF voter, I couldn't vote for Chase.

Amazingly the "junior circuit" team went to Busch stadium in last years WS and SWEPT 3 games where they were supposed to be at a huge disadvantage, the DH has to play a position or he's out and "junior circuit" pitchers NEVER bat and rarely take BP, go figure... :biggrin:

 

[Perknose]

Amazingly the "junior circuit" team went to Busch stadium in last years WS and SWEPT 3 games where they were supposed to be at a huge disadvantage, the DH has to play a position or he's out and "junior circuit" pitchers NEVER bat and rarely take BP, go figure... :biggrin:

Mos def, the AL seems to have had the cumulative talent edge over the NL for quite a number of years now.

For me, growing up, save the Yankees, this wasn't the case.

Then, the NL was known for it's hard-nosed style of baseball: double steals, suicide squeezes, taking the extra base, barrelling into second on double plays, etc., more flameballers vs. junkballers, while the AL was known as the portly white, sit back and hit the happy 3 run homer out of your aged bandbox of a stadium league.

Yes, friends, you can find tons of counter-examples. Save your outrage.

I'm not saying it was all one way for the NL and all the other way for the AL, but that was the generally perceived difference, for which their was at least some real-life justification, imhnso.

I kind of think it goes back to the NL generally opening up more quickly to black, and then Latin players -- just increasing the overall pool of talent.

Cliffs: NL > Al. Because, rook.

 

[techs]

We actually have metrics that effectively calculate 'clutch.' Edgar beats Ortiz there as well. Ortiz is just more recent and memorable. Don't get me wrong, Ortiz is a beast, and has been a beast in the playoffs as well. I just think he will unfortunately not have enough years of being that good in the end.

A-Rods clutch stats are really pretty good but we remember the times he didn't hit in the clutch tand hat makes people think he's a choker.

Ortiz's clutch hits came at times they either won the game, or turned the game around or changed the momentum or came in a game his team had to win. Stats don't accurately measure that.

I loves me some baseball "discussion" btw.

Oh, and it does seem somewhat unfair that anyone who DH's should not get into the Hall just because they DH'ed. It would seem to me that if you excelled at DH'ing you should not be exluded.

 

[happybelly]

A-Rods clutch stats are really pretty good but we remember the times he didn't hit in the clutch tand hat makes people think he's a choker.

Ortiz's clutch hits came at times they either won the game, or turned the game around or changed the momentum or came in a game his team had to win. Stats don't accurately measure that.

I loves me some baseball "discussion" btw.

Oh, and it does seem somewhat unfair that anyone who DH's should not get into the Hall just because they DH'ed. It would seem to me that if you excelled at DH'ing you should not be exluded.

Even if you want to debate clutch stats(which is pointless), there's no way they make up the gap between Ortiz and Edgar.


I don't think Ortiz is a Hall of Fame player, but I do agree being a DH shouldn't exclude you from consideration. It should be based on your overall value brought as a player and a really great hitter can still be worthy of the Hall, and more valuable than somebody that played in the field.

 

[Perknose]

I don't think Ortiz is a Hall of Fame player, but I do agree being a DH shouldn't exclude you from consideration.

What about the beer vendors? They're an integral part of the game as well.

 

[techs]

What about the beer vendors? They're an integral part of the game as well.

Swing and a miss.

 

[Ayrahvon]

One thing is for sure. There isn't another good, consistent DH in baseball at the moment. I thought Billy Butler might become a solid DH but his numbers have declined for two years now.

Trumbo really should switch leagues and be slotted into DH, his defense is god awful no matter where a team puts him.

Edit: Nelson Cruz is primary DH this year, but hasn't been historically. Victor Martinez is having a resurgent year, not consistent.

 

[Perknose]

What about the beer vendors? They're an integral part of the game as well.

Swing and a miss.

Well, the team mascot is on the field more than the DH is.

 

[techs]

Well, the team mascot is on the field more than the DH is.

Closer.

 

[BUTCH1]

Mos def, the AL seems to have had the cumulative talent edge over the NL for quite a number of years now.

For me, growing up, save the Yankees, this wasn't the case.

Then, the NL was known for it's hard-nosed style of baseball: double steals, suicide squeezes, taking the extra base, barrelling into second on double plays, etc., more flameballers vs. junkballers, while the AL was known as the portly white, sit back and hit the happy 3 run homer out of your aged bandbox of a stadium league.

Yes, friends, you can find tons of counter-examples. Save your outrage.

I'm not saying it was all one way for the NL and all the other way for the AL, but that was the generally perceived difference, for which their was at least some real-life justification, imhnso.

I kind of think it goes back to the NL generally opening up more quickly to black, and then Latin players -- just increasing the overall pool of talent.

Cliffs: NL > Al. Because, rook.

No outrage LOL, really, it's gone back and forth over the decades. Arguably one of the best WS was lost by my Sox in 7 games but that was a hell of a series, both teams played hard every game, every AB. Then Bill "spaceman" Lee who had a shutout going in the 5th in game 7 when he tried one of his "moon balls" that Perez was waiting on and blasted it into orbit, LOL..

 

[Perknose]

Well, the team mascot is on the field more than the DH is.

Closer.

Agreed. The DH is closer to the team mascot than he is to an actual ballplayer.

The DH is like the kicker on a football team. Sure, he's part of the team . . . sort of . . . but the other players never invite him to their parties.

 

[dbk]

His apparent failure of a drug test in 03 will not allow him to get in anytime soon. Just the way it is.. Writers won't vote him in. No way around it..

I'd imagine when he becomes eligible for the HOF, the national media will drudge that controversy all over again.. YUP

Most people that's been accused in the past twenty or so years have ultimately been found to cheat... mEH. Doesn't bother me.. My favorite player growing up was Sosa and look how he went.. damn shame

 

[edro]

From an impact standpoint, he would get in. One of the best DHs in this era.
How many games has he won, singlehandedly? More than most.

However, the PED implications will keep him out.

 

[cubby1223]

He can play a decent 1st base, can you fault him by playing on an AL team?, personally I like the DH rule, watching a pitcher swing like a amateur gets boring, fast. Yea, I know in the old days they hit but they pitched a lot more often back then to so they got enough plate appearances to get a halfway decent AB..

Of the typical 35-40 plate appearances per team per game, a pitcher takes the plate 2 or 3 times before getting swapped out for pinch hitters. You're not exactly drowning in boredom watching pitchers hit all day long, your argument doesn't hold up.

On the flip side, it adds excitement to the game knowing there is a pitchers spot in that your team is under the pressure to get something accomplished asap as they get down to the 7 & 8 spot in the lineup. And it's a sense of relief when your team gets a tough out on the 8 batter with runners on base.

And you are missing out on the absolute pure thrill of watching your team's pitcher get a hit, drive in an rbi, especially parking one over the fence!

Sorry but the DH is far more boring

 

[Sho'Nuff]

Hall of Fame level juicer for sure. Designated Hitters should be excluded on general principle. If you can't haul your fat ass out of the dugout and field a position you're not a great player.

I can never understand this argument. There are plenty of great pitchers in the hall of fame that either batted infrequently or never batted at the major league level. Yet they are in the hall of fame because they were some of the best at their position. Likewise there are plenty of hall of famers that were great hitters but only marginal fielders (or vice versa). There are very few hall of famers that were excellent all around baseball players. Most were simply good in most respects, and insanely good in one or two specific respects. So your argument that DH's should be excluded per se does not make sense given that other hall of fame members were inducted without playing "one half" of the game, or only playing it marginally well.

IMO I think David Ortiz should get in simply because he is, overall, a great hitter and in particular a great clutch hitter. Others have gotten in for less than that.

In any case, here is a good article detailing reasons why ortiz should and should not get inducted. I agree that he is not a slam dunk case for entry into the hall, at least not first ballot. But I think he will eventually get inducted.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/boston-red-sox-david-ortiz-future-hall-famer-155400769--mlb.html

 

[cubby1223]

I can never understand this arguement. There are plenty of great pitchers in the hall of fame that either batted infrequently or never batted at the major league level. Yet they are in the hall of fame because they were some of the best at their position.

Except the DH is unique. On every AL team, there are 8 other players who do the exact same job as the DH with the exact same responsibilities. Difference being those 8 other players have additional responsibilities and skills as they need to play the field.

The DH is a mere half-position, and as such a DH must be significantly better at his half-position than other hall of fame contenders, to even begin to be considered.

 

[BUTCH1]

Of the typical 35-40 plate appearances per team per game, a pitcher takes the plate 2 or 3 times before getting swapped out for pinch hitters. You're not exactly drowning in boredom watching pitchers hit all day long, your argument doesn't hold up.

On the flip side, it adds excitement to the game knowing there is a pitchers spot in that your team is under the pressure to get something accomplished asap as they get down to the 7 & 8 spot in the lineup. And it's a sense of relief when your team gets a tough out on the 8 batter with runners on base.

And you are missing out on the absolute pure thrill of watching your team's pitcher get a hit, drive in an rbi, especially parking one over the fence!

Sorry but the DH is far more boring

Well in any event it should be done away with by now and all of baseball should be returned to the original rules, back in the '70's they used the excuse of losing fans and not enough $$ revenue but that's not the case anymore and having a major sport like MLB with 2 completely different set's of rules is somewhat ridiculous at this point, either allow a DH in both or eliminate it in both

 

[BUTCH1]

No player would surprise me in that regard, but I also don't think it should count against them for the HoF. Baseball for years looked the other way (and profited from players using the drugs), and there are countless known players who used drugs that are already in the hall.

I'd love to see the hall change how the vote is done, but I don't see that happening either. I agree that it is basically irrelevant, especially when two of the greatest hitters and players in baseball are not represented.

Yea, amphetamine use was rampant throughout the league, the owners and commissioner could have cared less, again it was about the $$, players played 6 days a week (sometimes 7), still do, all while flying around the country to different cities. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be a MLB player but the fact is, it's a grind. When McGuire and Sosa and Bonds were breaking records left and right almost everyone with an IQ over 20 suspected that there was some kind of PED usage but MLB owners were selling out games left and right, why ask questions when your raking in boatloads of revenue from packed stadiums?. In the end it wound up hurting the game, knowing the all time greats like Ruth, Marris, Aaron and Mays records were being broken by players that used PED's left a sour taste in many long-time fans. To it's credit I think MLB has done a lot to restore credibility to the game and hopefully continues to do so, I still consider Aaron the HR king, for god's sake Bonds head was the size of a truck from steroids, both him, Clemens, Rodriguez and the rest of the lying POS's should never be HOF'ers, at least some guys came clean and admitted they used, I have 10X more respect for Pete Rose than any of them although he was stupid not to admit his issues and come clean when he was offered a chance to do so..

 

[Papagayo]

He was an MVP in 2013 world series.. Wouldn't that factor in also?

 

[SP33Demon]

Every position should be represented in the Hall of Fame. Ortiz is unfortunately not even close to the greatest DH to play the game. Take a look at Edgar Martinez who put up nine 5+ WAR seasons at DH. Career wOBA of .405 is insane.

Ortiz has been one of the best hitters in baseball the last few years, unfortunately he hasn't played enough years at that level to justify a nod to the hall in my mind. Will he make it? Probably, and Edgar probably won't. The Hall is a sham.

Edgar
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1086&position=3B/DH

Ortiz
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=745&position=DH

Your link has proven that Edgar did provide more value, yet they were two different types of hitters. From a pure value standpoint, if Papi gets in, then so should Edgar.

However, the two hitters brought different things to the table. Of significance is Papi easily trumping Edgar in ISO, or isolated power: .260 to .204. Edgar was a better pure hitter if we look at batting average: .312 vs .286, albeit having better luck (BABIP .335 vs .312 for Papi, lower is better).

A couple of other things that I think makes up for the WAR difference between Papi and Edgar.

1) To reiterate the above, Papi handily beats Edgar in ISO, or power numbers.

2) Papi was more clutch in the playoffs. Yes, Edgar was a bit more clutch in "Late and Close" situations of the regular season, but that doesn't compare to the postseason when pressure is at its highest: .962 OPS vs .873, .295 average vs .266. For those concerned about small sample sizes, Papi did this in over double the Plate Attempts of Edgar: 357 vs 148, which makes it even more impressive. To put it simply, Papi's postseason numbers go up vs his career average whereas Edgar's went down vs his career average. Is Edgar's 148 PA's a small sample size? I don't think so, especially when making the argument for the greatest DH of all time. Edgar simply didn't produce when it mattered most, i.e. the playoffs.

3) As a result of #1 and #2 above, Papi was/is more feared in his era. Proof: He led the league in intentional walks (IBB) last year (2013) with 27, and is leading the league in them this year (2014) so far. This is a man who is in his 18th season and plays in the same league as superstars named Cabrera, Pujols, and Bautista. Who has ever lead the league in IBB in their 17th and 18th seasons? Nobody except Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds. Papi has finished in the top 8 or less since 2005 and is 4th overall among active players only behind future First Ballot HOFers (Pujols, Cabrera, and Suzuki). Power commands fear because it can change the game with one swing. Edgar never commanded that type of fear in his era. In fact, Edgar never led his league in IBB, ever.

4) Papi had to play in an era against more advanced metrics, which led to more ABs against the shift. Let's cut the BS, Papi is still putting up sick numbers while having to deal with the shift on most ABs. Want proof that the shift is being employed even more last year?
http://www.billjamesonline.com/whos_shifting_and_whos_not/

If Papi continues to put up big numbers this late in his career, especially against better metrics/tactics like the shift, then you have to put him on par with Edgar in my opinion. Regardless, they were both the best DH's of their eras and if one got in, the other should also get in.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

No brainer this is a yes. He will pass 500 homers, there is no stigma of roids around him, and he is one of the top 5 best postseason players of his generation. The guy single-handedly (in a way) ended the Curse of the Bambino.

How is this even a question?

-impartial Braves fan