David Ortiz. Hall of Fame?

[techs]

Big Papi might just make it to 500 home runs, he's at 443 now.

Does he make it into the Hall of Fame without getting to 500? Does making it to 500 get him in? Does the steroid controversy affect his chances?

 

[KMFJD]

It's been the Hall of pretty good for a while now so why not?

 

[TallBill]

He'll have trouble even with 500 I'd think. Hard to tell how the votes will pan out over the next few years, but he's definitely not a first ballot for now at least.

 

[bradley]

David Ortiz. PEDs? We all know the answer to that question.

 

[cubby1223]

Players who are incapable of fielding have to hit significantly more homeruns to "qualify".

(I'm biased towards the National League, the DH is not a position)

 

[crashtestdummy]

I don't think so. He'll have his number retired for sure, but he hasn't done enough to be HoF worthy. I think if his career from 2004-2007 was matched throughout, then he'd have a shot.

 

[summit]

Needs at least 500 HRs to even be considered.

 

[drebo]

Nope, even if he does hit 500.

 

[preCRT]

Yes

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Hall of Fame level juicer for sure. Designated Hitters should be excluded on general principle. If you can't haul your fat ass out of the dugout and field a position you're not a great player.

 

[BUTCH1]

No one knows how long he was "juicing" or to what extent, he does have a normal appearance to him now vs someone like Mark McGuire who had the "monster head" thing going on. It's kind of a shame because that dude is/was one of the best clutch hitters of all time, without him the greatest comeback ever in '04 never happens and there is no drug that makes you clutch, that just is in someone's nature or it isn't. Sad choice though, look at the players that were so gifted like Clemens or Ramirez that would have been 1st ballot HOF'ers but now probably never. I'm sure Roger asks himself now, if the 3-4 years of extra time bought by PED's were worth it, same with Manny, few folks knew of his countless hours spent in the batting cage with the machine set up to throw the nastiest slider possible, he wanted to be one of the best right-handed hitters the game had ever seen and he might have gone out that way until we found out. Again, there is no PED that can help you make contact with a nasty slider but once your name is tarnished with any involvement with PED's it's all rendered irrelevant, what a waste..

 

[BUTCH1]

Hall of Fame level juicer for sure. Designated Hitters should be excluded on general principle. If you can't haul your fat ass out of the dugout and field a position you're not a great player.

He can play a decent 1st base, can you fault him by playing on an AL team?, personally I like the DH rule, watching a pitcher swing like a amateur gets boring, fast. Yea, I know in the old days they hit but they pitched a lot more often back then to so they got enough plate appearances to get a halfway decent AB..

 

[MongGrel]

Hall of Fame level juicer for sure. Designated Hitters should be excluded on general principle. If you can't haul your fat ass out of the dugout and field a position you're not a great player.

+1

 

[GagHalfrunt]

He can play a decent 1st base, can you fault him by playing on an AL team?,

Yes, I can fault EVERY AL designated hitter.

1) If you're a great PLAYER as opposed to a great HITTER your team doesn't need to hide you in the dugout.

2) DH's get FAR more rest and face FAR less risk of injury compared to real players and therefore their stats are artificially inflated.

3) DH's don't get pulled for defensive replacements like fat clumsy fielders in the National League and therefore get more at bats.

4) Only having to get off your ass 4 or 5 times a day the body is less prone to the breakdowns of long-term juicers who have to field a position every day.



If Ortiz had to be a REAL ballplayer he would not have the same offensive production, period.

 

[BUTCH1]

+1

It's a valid point but look at it from a players standpoint, the man can play 1st base at a major league level but given your allowed to use a DH why would you? are you going to go home and call it a career and turn away $12mil because your not fielding a position?.

 

[BUTCH1]

Yes, I can fault EVERY AL designated hitter.

1) If you're a great PLAYER as opposed to a great HITTER your team doesn't need to hide you in the dugout.

2) DH's get FAR more rest and face FAR less risk of injury compared to real players and therefore their stats are artificially inflated.

3) DH's don't get pulled for defensive replacements like fat clumsy fielders in the National League and therefore get more at bats.

4) Only having to get off your ass 4 or 5 times a day the body is less prone to the breakdowns of long-term juicers who have to field a position every day.



If Ortiz had to be a REAL ballplayer he would not have the same offensive production, period.

He's not "hiding" in the dugout, the team is playing by the rules, in the AL you get a power bat at 1st base then get a 2nd power bat with the DH rule. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, would you walk away from $12-14mil/year on principle,? I wouldn't. Also keep in mind that those "inflated stats" you mention get "deflated" as teams "pitch around" Ortiz all the time or if he's on a red-hot streak just give him 1st every time he comes up.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

He's not "hiding" in the dugout, the team is playing by the rules, in the AL you get a power bat at 1st base then get a 2nd power bat with the DH rule. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, would you walk away from $12-14mil/year on principle,? I wouldn't. Also keep in mind that those "inflated stats" you mention get "deflated" as teams "pitch around" Ortiz all the time or if he's on a red-hot streak just give him 1st every time he comes up.

Now you're trying to spin this in 2 new directions because you're getting your ass kicked on the real one.

1) WTF was talking about whether Ortiz should take the money or not? Of course he'll take the payday, that is completely 100% irrelevant.

2) And yes, it's legal according to the rules, so pointing out that the rules allow it is also 100% irrelevant. The rules allow HOF voters to exclude guys for gambling, for juicing or for not being able to field a position like a REAL ballplayers.

The point we're debating is whether Ortiz is a Hall of Famer and the point is that DH's should not be HOF worthy because they are playing a different game than EVERY OTHER player in the league. EVERYONE else has to pick up a glove and play defense to get in the game, only the DH is excluded. That gives the DH a distinct advantage in that they rest more, get injured less and only have to practice one phase of the game. And for that reason I think that NO DH's are HOF-worthy. The rules might allow them to play, but that alone does not make them Hall of Famers.

 

[BUTCH1]

Now you're trying to spin this in 2 new directions because you're getting your ass kicked on the real one.

1) WTF was talking about whether Ortiz should take the money or not? Of course he'll take the payday, that is completely 100% irrelevant.

2) And yes, it's legal according to the rules, so pointing out that the rules allow it is also 100% irrelevant. The rules allow HOF voters to exclude guys for gambling, for juicing or for not being able to field a position like a REAL ballplayers.

The point we're debating is whether Ortiz is a Hall of Famer and the point is that DH's should not be HOF worthy because they are playing a different game than EVERY OTHER player in the league. EVERYONE else has to pick up a glove and play defense to get in the game, only the DH is excluded. That gives the DH a distinct advantage in that they rest more, get injured less and only have to practice one phase of the game. And for that reason I think that NO DH's are HOF-worthy. The rules might allow them to play, but that alone does not make them Hall of Famers.

OK, I get your point, IDK if a DH has made the HOF or not or weather that would influence the decision, Ortiz came to the Sox via the Twins but I'm not sure if he played any 1st base there. It's 100%true that a DH will endure much less strain than an everyday position player, but they also do get hit by a lot of pitches. (OK, I'm grasping a bit here, but it does happen).. :biggrin:

 

[Ayrahvon]

Hall of Fame level juicer for sure. Designated Hitters should be excluded on general principle. If you can't haul your fat ass out of the dugout and field a position you're not a great player.

Every position should be represented in the Hall of Fame. Ortiz is unfortunately not even close to the greatest DH to play the game. Take a look at Edgar Martinez who put up nine 5+ WAR seasons at DH. Career wOBA of .405 is insane.

Ortiz has been one of the best hitters in baseball the last few years, unfortunately he hasn't played enough years at that level to justify a nod to the hall in my mind. Will he make it? Probably, and Edgar probably won't. The Hall is a sham.

Edgar
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1086&position=3B/DH

Ortiz
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=745&position=DH

 

[angminas]

He won't make it on his stats, that's certain.

 

[techs]

Every position should be represented in the Hall of Fame. Ortiz is unfortunately not even close to the greatest DH to play the game. Take a look at Edgar Martinez who put up nine 5+ WAR seasons at DH. Career wOBA of .405 is insane.

Ortiz has been one of the best hitters in baseball the last few years, unfortunately he hasn't played enough years at that level to justify a nod to the hall in my mind. Will he make it? Probably, and Edgar probably won't. The Hall is a sham.

Edgar
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1086&position=3B/DH

Ortiz
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=745&position=DH

Ortiz's stats are clearly superior to Martinez's stats. Clearly superior home runs and rbi per year. Martinez has a slightly better OBP and batting average. About the same doubles.

 

[Ayrahvon]

Ortiz's stats are clearly superior to Martinez's stats. Clearly superior home runs and rbi per year. Martinez has a slightly better OBP and batting average. About the same doubles.

RBIs? That stat that means nothing (other than that you have other good hitters before you)? Really? If you look at their slugging, or more importantly their wOBA, wrc+, and WAR you will clearly see that Martinez was a far better player. During his peak 7 years, only Barry Bonds was a better hitter.

Wrc+ is the weighted runs created by a player. An average player is a 100 wrc+ player, David Ortiz has 138 wrc+ for his career. As in, he's created 38% more runs than league average for his career. Edgar managed 47% more for his.

To put that into comparison, since Edgar entered the league in 1987, only 10 players have posted a better wrc+ over 2000 plate appearances. Here's who has bested him in order: Barry Bonds, Albert Pujols, Mark McGuire, Joey Votto, Frank Thomas, Manny Ramirez, Miguel Cabrera, Jeff Bagwell, and Ryan Braun. Ortiz is 27th.

Edgar also posted 23.9 more WAR over his career.

In other words, not only was Edgar better at his peak than Ortiz, he has had a significantly better career.

Edit: Here's the list for you to look out. Baseball Prospectus calculates WAR slightly differently and uses .tav instead of woba, but the differences are clear there as well. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...am=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=17,d

 

[techs]

As good a pure hitter Martinez is, Ortiz's amazing clutch hitting plus his stats that fit the number four slot better than Edgars, put Ortiz at the top, imo.

 

[Perknose]

Big Papi is a "lovable" fan favorite who somehow gets a pass for his constant asshole showboating. And he has come through in some memorable clutch moments. But a DH is not a true baseball player, imho. It's a Junior Circuit fan confection, not all that dissimilar to mascots in big fuzzy suits and free bobblehead night.

The discussion on who should get into the HOF among active players but most surely won't because his career stats sadly don't measure up should begin and end with one of the best all-around players of his generation, Chase Utley.

And no, sadly, if I were a HOF voter, I couldn't vote for Chase.

 

[Poulsonator]

The DH has been a part of MLB since 1973, it's LONG past time there is representation in the HoF for them. The only league nowadays that doesn't use it is the archaic National League. Besides, how can you punish DH's for "only doing one thing" when 99.9% of all hitting pitchers only do one thing well? Why shouldn't hitting pitchers be then punished for the inability to hit?

(to me, pitchers hitting has always been dumb. I want my pitcher to worry about pitching, period. Not having to bunt, hit, run the bases (where dumb injuries happen), etc.)

As for Papi, he is a good fielder, and always has been. I think it's a crime that Edgar Martinez isn't in the Hall, just as it'll be a shame when Papi doesn't make it. And don't come to me with the PED stuff. Do some actual research on that before bringing it up in the thread.