David Ortiz. Hall of Fame?

[cubby1223]

No brainer this is a yes. He will pass 500 homers, there is no stigma of roids around him, and he is one of the top 5 best postseason players of his generation. The guy single-handedly (in a way) ended the Curse of the Bambino.

How is this even a question?

-impartial Braves fan

He was a lifelong DH. He was a mediocre player when he was on the Twins, and he 4 superstar years on the Red Sox ('04-'07). I'm doubting he'll reach 500 homeruns considering his current total and his age.

Frank Thomas, for contrast, had 7 maybe 8 superstar years, dominating the league from 1991 though 2000.

Big Papi had a few more key dingers in the postseason. That's not enough to guarantee Hall of Fame votes. Look up the stats, especially the new sabermetrics "Wins Above Replacement" and "Runs Above Replacement" between just these two players, the difference stands out big time.

I don't believe he will get the votes.

 

[edro]

there is no stigma of roids around him

wat?

 

[cubby1223]

Seriously, outside of a few dingers in the postseason, there is absolutely nothing in the statistics that say David Ortiz should even be in consideration for the Hall of Fame.

For example, Sabermetrics has David Ortiz with just 5 seasons where his WAR stat was above 4. Edgar Martinez had 10 such seasons. Only once was Ortiz at or above a WAR of 6, Martinez had 5 seasons above that mark.

 

[cubby1223]

The DH has been a part of MLB since 1973, it's LONG past time there is representation in the HoF for them. The only league nowadays that doesn't use it is the archaic National League. Besides, how can you punish DH's for "only doing one thing" when 99.9% of all hitting pitchers only do one thing well? Why shouldn't hitting pitchers be then punished for the inability to hit?

It's quite simple. Every position player hits just the same as the DH. There is absolutely nothing special to the DH suggesting it deserves any recognition at all.

Pitching is completely different. Place a random position player onto the mound during a game and see how well he performs in that role.

All position players can be designated hitters. Extremely few designated hitters can play a position other than first base on a limited basis. Maybe once in a decade a position player takes the mound in a 9-inning/non-blowout game.

 

[BUTCH1]

Seriously, outside of a few dingers in the postseason, there is absolutely nothing in the statistics that say David Ortiz should even be in consideration for the Hall of Fame.

For example, Sabermetrics has David Ortiz with just 5 seasons where his WAR stat was above 4. Edgar Martinez had 10 such seasons. Only once was Ortiz at or above a WAR of 6, Martinez had 5 seasons above that mark.

He probably won't make it and part of him (as a life-long Sox fan) I don't like is his theatrics, constantly bitching to the ump's on called strikes, but with that said, the dude is clutch big time, when you need a hit or a HR to get back in a game or win one he delivers..

 

[cubby1223]

He probably won't make it and part of him (as a life-long Sox fan) I don't like is his theatrics, constantly bitching to the ump's on called strikes, but with that said, the dude is clutch big time, when you need a hit or a HR to get back in a game or win one he delivers..

He hit some dingers in the '04 postseason and was crowned by the organization to be the greatest Red Sox clutch hitter of all time. I think if we really dig into the stats, the reality will not back up the myth, the statistics just aren't there. Ortiz comes through with an occasional late-inning hit, but the stats do not suggest he ever dominated the game for any length of time.

 

[BUTCH1]

He hit some dingers in the '04 postseason and was crowned by the organization to be the greatest Red Sox clutch hitter of all time. I think if we really dig into the stats, the reality will not back up the myth, the statistics just aren't there. Ortiz comes through with an occasional late-inning hit, but the stats do not suggest he ever dominated the game for any length of time.

It's more than just the '04 season but I'll tell you who was a clutch dude, Bill Buckner, yup, he was a great, great hitter WRSP, it still pisses me off the amount of crap he had to(and still does) about booting one ground ball, dude had a F-'ed up ankle almost all season, still drove in well over 100RBI's and 18 HR's. Most players these days would have gone on the DL but Buckner refused to do so, to me he's a gamer and always will be.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

Except the DH is unique. On every AL team, there are 8 other players who do the exact same job as the DH with the exact same responsibilities. Difference being those 8 other players have additional responsibilities and skills as they need to play the field.

The DH is a mere half-position, and as such a DH must be significantly better at his half-position than other hall of fame contenders, to even begin to be considered.

OK just ignore the argument I made. That is convincing.

Pitchers are no different than DH's per your argument. Yet there are plenty of AL pitchers in the hall of fame. Explain that.

And before you say it - a pitcher has to throw a ball. The only difference between him and the other 8 fielders is the person he throws to (I am oversimplifying of course, but that is what you did so . . . )

 

[bradley]

"there is no stigma of roids around him" Wha?

Also, the Sox picked up Ortiz for nothing on wavers at the rip old age of 27. Edgar Martinez had already accumulated significant stats by then. In fact, after looking at their respective careers, Ortiz isn't exactly in the same class.

 

[BUTCH1]

OK just ignore the argument I made. That is convincing.

Pitchers are no different than DH's per your argument. Yet there are plenty of AL pitchers in the hall of fame. Explain that.

And before you say it - a pitcher has to throw a ball. The only difference between him and the other 8 fielders is the person he throws to (I am oversimplifying of course, but that is what you did so . . . )

Yea, you kinda got a point there, pitch one day, get next 3-4 off, sitting in the bullpen eating wings and pizza yet THEY are possible HOF'ers and DH'ers who play EVERY game don't..(and they get plunked or walked a lot more too)..

 

[cubby1223]

OK just ignore the argument I made. That is convincing.

Pitchers are no different than DH's per your argument. Yet there are plenty of AL pitchers in the hall of fame. Explain that.

And before you say it - a pitcher has to throw a ball. The only difference between him and the other 8 fielders is the person he throws to (I am oversimplifying of course, but that is what you did so . . . )

Your argument was wrong, therefore I did not build off of it in my explanation of how the game of baseball works.

Do we really have to get into what is different between throwing a baseball from the shortstop position over to the first baseman, and pitching a 95mph fastball followed up by a sharp-breaking slider with pinpoint accuracy? The throwing skills of position players are far, far to weak to be effective pitchers in the majors.

I guess it was my fault for assuming this was common knowledge.


There have been a whole slew of position players with superior batting statistics over the past 20 years than Ortiz. That's the point. Steroids have clouded the past 20 years, but the fact still remains, there are many position players with better stats in the one skill that Ortiz has specialized himself in. Show me a single position player who can achieve an ERA or WHIP amongst the best of the pitchers in the league. All you need to do is name one and I will concede you have a valid argument.


What is the difference between a shortstop and a pitcher? A specially developed and trained pitching arm. What is the difference between a left fielder and a designated hitter? The DH warms the bench while the left fielder busts his ass in the outfield to help his team.

 

[happybelly]

I think people who are against a DH making the Hall of Fame aren't looking at the bigger picture. Overall, position players who play the field are more valuable than a DH. That doesn't mean that occasionally there is a DH that is so good that his hitting alone is valuable enough to make it in the Hall.

Lets not forget that there have also been more than a few terrible defensive players who were great hitters and made the Hall of Fame as well. Frank Thomas(a deserving HoFer) is a good example. He was a terrible defensive player and actively hurt his value to his team in the field. Should players who hurt their team in the field be given extra credit just because they were out there? I don't think so.

We should be looking at overall value for who should be voted into the HOF.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

Your argument was wrong, therefore I did not build off of it in my explanation of how the game of baseball works.

Do we really have to get into what is different between throwing a baseball from the shortstop position over to the first baseman, and pitching a 95mph fastball followed up by a sharp-breaking slider with pinpoint accuracy? The throwing skills of position players are far, far to weak to be effective pitchers in the majors.

I guess it was my fault for assuming this was common knowledge.

There have been a whole slew of position players with superior batting statistics over the past 20 years than Ortiz. That's the point. Steroids have clouded the past 20 years, but the fact still remains, there are many position players with better stats in the one skill that Ortiz has specialized himself in. Show me a single position player who can achieve an ERA or WHIP amongst the best of the pitchers in the league. All you need to do is name one and I will concede you have a valid argument.

What is the difference between a shortstop and a pitcher? A specially developed and trained pitching arm. What is the difference between a left fielder and a designated hitter? The DH warms the bench while the left fielder busts his ass in the outfield to help his team.

My point is not to debate whether Ortiz should make it into the HOF. Rather it was to rebut your position that DH's should not be admitted to the Hall per se, which is based on some non-sensical argument that the DH is "half" a position. Yes, DH'es play one side of the game. So do all AL pitchers. DH'es play every day. Starting AL pitchers play every 5 days. Its hard to throw a ball with pinpoint accuracy (I know, seeing as how I having pitched for a DIV IA college baseball team). But you know what? Its damn hard to hit a 90+ MPH fastball with any degree of consistency too. And DH'es HAVE to hit well else they will not be around for very long.

Sure, players that play the field also have to hit. But there are plenty of fielders that made it into the hall for their defensive skills alone. Take Ozzie Smith - .262 lifetime average. .328 lifetime slugging. Nonetheless he got into the hall of fame IMO because of his defense and his speed. Apart from his speed he was only really excellent on one side of the game.

Again, I'm not making a case for Ortiz. Just against your ridiculous position that a DH shouldn't even be considered for the hall of fame. Hell, there are relief pitchers (closers) in the hall of fame!

 

[cubby1223]

My point is not to debate whether Ortiz should make it into the HOF. Rather it was to rebut your position that DH's should not be admitted to the Hall per se, which is based on some non-sensical argument that the DH is "half" a position.
<snip>
Again, I'm not making a case for Ortiz. Just against your ridiculous position that a DH shouldn't even be considered for the hall of fame. Hell, there are relief pitchers (closers) in the hall of fame!

So much internet rage inside of you Calm down and please do re-read what I wrote that inspired you to respond:

The DH is a mere half-position, and as such a DH must be significantly better at his half-position than other hall of fame contenders, to even begin to be considered.

I said the DH must be held to a higher offensive standard than all other ball players. Am I wrong? Take a hypothetical left fielder and a DH with the exact same offensive stats. The left fielder is the better baseball player, and will receive greater consideration for the Hall over the DH in every single HOF vote.

There is no reason at all to give a player special consideration for being a lifetime DH. When the voting takes place, pitchers get compared to other pitchers of the same time, shortstops to other shortstops, outfielders to other outfielders of the time. The DH doesn't simply get compared to only other DH's but also in addition to all other players' offensive stats. And they must be better by a good margin.


Another fun example, for a season or two my Cubs signed a player (forget his name) who held the mark for most career pinch hits. Would you suggest he be voted into the Hall for that achievement?

 

[cubby1223]

And for everyone else, just enjoy your 3 Red Sox World Series!

Ortiz is not making it into the Hall of Fame. Don't worry about that, just enjoy the games.

Over here in Chicago we have this lovely sign that sits across the street from right field, the one that begins with AC

 

[happybelly]

So much internet rage inside of you Calm down and please do re-read what I wrote that inspired you to respond:



I said the DH must be held to a higher offensive standard than all other ball players. Am I wrong? Take a hypothetical left fielder and a DH with the exact same offensive stats. The left fielder is the better baseball player, and will receive greater consideration for the Hall over the DH in every single HOF vote.

There is no reason at all to give a player special consideration for being a lifetime DH. When the voting takes place, pitchers get compared to other pitchers of the same time, shortstops to other shortstops, outfielders to other outfielders of the time. The DH doesn't simply get compared to only other DH's but also in addition to all other players' offensive stats. And they must be better by a good margin.


Another fun example, for a season or two my Cubs signed a player (forget his name) who held the mark for most career pinch hits. Would you suggest he be voted into the Hall for that achievement? There are no pinch hitters represented in the HOF.

This isn't necessarily true. If a defender is so terrible that his negative value in the field goes beyond what value it brings to just play a defensive position he's not the more valuable/better player.

I do agree that a player shouldn't get special consideration for just being a DH. Hitters that are special enough like a Frank Thomas or Edgar Martinez do deserve it, though.

 

[cubby1223]

It's more than just the '04 season but I'll tell you who was a clutch dude, Bill Buckner, yup, he was a great, great hitter WRSP, it still pisses me off the amount of crap he had to(and still does) about booting one ground ball, dude had a F-'ed up ankle almost all season, still drove in well over 100RBI's and 18 HR's. Most players these days would have gone on the DL but Buckner refused to do so, to me he's a gamer and always will be.

Buckner was a Cubbie before heading over to the Red Sox, and he was popular here too. And we had Leon Durham make that same exact error in the '84 playoffs as the Cubs were about to head to the series

 

[cubby1223]

This isn't necessarily true. If a defender is so terrible that his negative value in the field goes beyond what value it brings to just play a defensive position he's not the more valuable/better player.

If he's a HOF caliber hitter but an absolute horrendous fielder, he will naturally gravitate to the DH role. The system fixes itself!

I do agree that a player shouldn't get special consideration for just being a DH. Hitters that are special enough like a Frank Thomas or Edgar Martinez do deserve it, though.

Thomas dominated the game in the 90's. After his MVP season in 2000 (discounting the roided Giambi ) Thomas's game fell quite a bit, which unfortunately many people remember more than the first half of his career. In the 90's Thomas predominantly played first base and slowly migrated to DH in the later years.

 

[Sho'Nuff]

This isn't necessarily true. If a defender is so terrible that his negative value in the field goes beyond what value it brings to just play a defensive position he's not the more valuable/better player.

I do agree that a player shouldn't get special consideration for just being a DH. Hitters that are special enough like a Frank Thomas or Edgar Martinez do deserve it, though.

Prince Fielder and Mike Piazza are prime examples of this. Though their offensive numbers are (or were) seen to at least offset their terrible defense.

 

[Perknose]

Originally Posted by cubby1223
The DH is a mere half-position, and as such a DH must be significantly better at his half-position than other hall of fame contenders, to even begin to be considered.

In a nutsack! Errrrr, shell, in a nutshell! :biggrin:

/Thread

 

[techs]

He was a lifelong DH. He was a mediocre player when he was on the Twins, and he 4 superstar years on the Red Sox ('04-'07). I'm doubting he'll reach 500 homeruns considering his current total and his age.

Frank Thomas, for contrast, had 7 maybe 8 superstar years, dominating the league from 1991 though 2000.

Big Papi had a few more key dingers in the postseason. That's not enough to guarantee Hall of Fame votes. Look up the stats, especially the new sabermetrics "Wins Above Replacement" and "Runs Above Replacement" between just these two players, the difference stands out big time.

I don't believe he will get the votes.

Wins and runs above replacement is highly dependent on the quality of the replacing player. On the Red Sox they usually had a pretty good player filling in for Ortiz while the Mariners couldn't afford a high quality hitter who mostly just sat on the bench.

 

[Perknose]

Wins and runs above replacement is highly dependent on the quality of the replacing player. On the Red Sox they usually had a pretty good player filling in for Ortiz while the Mariners couldn't afford a high quality hitter who mostly just sat on the bench.

I don't think you fully understand the WAR metric. It is not team player dependent. It's measured against a mythical, statistically derived "league average player," not any one actual player on any one team.

Hey, if I were a Sawx fan I'd likely be all over Big Poopi's HOF eligibility, so I understand the home town fanboyism. I'm sad that a truly complete in all phases of the game player like Chase Utley will likely never even sniff the Hall until the veterans committee.

But otherwise, those here promoting him are guilty of Billy Beane's "snapshot" theory -- that fans, and even talent evaluators, can be overly influenced by certain specific memories of a player's performances instead of looking at his overall stats more dispassionately.

Big Poopi has had, and continues to have, a very cool and memorable career, but especially as HALF A PLAYER, he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall, imho.

 

[BUTCH1]

Buckner was a Cubbie before heading over to the Red Sox, and he was popular here too. And we had Leon Durham make that same exact error in the '84 playoffs as the Cubs were about to head to the series

Yea, I knew we got him from the Cubs and he was one hell of a ball-player, his RBI's and HR production were one of the reasons the Sox got to the playoff's that year, blown ankle and all he refused to use it as an excuse and continued to play, he was of course easily thrown out on a ground ball but more often than not he was smoking line-drives into the outfield. BB got a raw deal IMO and true Sox fans know how hard he played and was a total "team-first" type of player.

 

[techs]

Hey, if I were a Sawx fan I'd likely be all over Big Poopi's HOF eligibility, so I understand the home town fanboyism. I'm sad that a truly complete in all phases of the game player like Chase Utley will likely never even sniff the Hall until the veterans committee.

I'm actually undecided, which is why I posted this thread.
If Ortiz continues at his current pace he'll hit about 23 more home runs this season, putting him at 466 at the end of the season. Once he gets near 460 a real debate will start over his HOF qualifications.

 

[techs]

Yea, I knew we got him from the Cubs and he was one hell of a ball-player, his RBI's and HR production were one of the reasons the Sox got to the playoff's that year, blown ankle and all he refused to use it as an excuse and continued to play, he was of course easily thrown out on a ground ball but more often than not he was smoking line-drives into the outfield. BB got a raw deal IMO and true Sox fans know how hard he played and was a total "team-first" type of player.

I think Sawx fans have finally gotten over BB's blown ground ball. Finally winning a WS went a long way towards fan forgiveness.