agreed, dh should be permanently excluded from the hall. Hell, exclude all players from the american league until they fix that bullshit.
Except if you go back through history and analyze using some of those stats such as WAR you will see that they kinda suck. They may have some value when you look at a specific circumstance, but they aren't nearly the be all golden throne position some think.
Your link has proven that Edgar did provide more value, yet they were two different types of hitters. From a pure value standpoint, if Papi gets in, then so should Edgar.
However, the two hitters brought different things to the table. Of significance is Papi easily trumping Edgar in ISO, or isolated power: .260 to .204. Edgar was a better pure hitter if we look at batting average: .312 vs .286, albeit having better luck (BABIP .335 vs .312 for Papi, lower is better).
A couple of other things that I think makes up for the WAR difference between Papi and Edgar.
1) To reiterate the above, Papi handily beats Edgar in ISO, or power numbers.
2) Papi was more clutch in the playoffs. Yes, Edgar was a bit more clutch in "Late and Close" situations of the regular season, but that doesn't compare to the postseason when pressure is at its highest: .962 OPS vs .873, .295 average vs .266. For those concerned about small sample sizes, Papi did this in over double the Plate Attempts of Edgar: 357 vs 148, which makes it even more impressive. To put it simply, Papi's postseason numbers go up vs his career average whereas Edgar's went down vs his career average. Is Edgar's 148 PA's a small sample size? I don't think so, especially when making the argument for the greatest DH of all time. Edgar simply didn't produce when it mattered most, i.e. the playoffs.
3) As a result of #1 and #2 above, Papi was/is more feared in his era. Proof: He led the league in intentional walks (IBB) last year (2013) with 27, and is leading the league in them this year (2014) so far. This is a man who is in his 18th season and plays in the same league as superstars named Cabrera, Pujols, and Bautista. Who has ever lead the league in IBB in their 17th and 18th seasons? Nobody except Hank Aaron and Barry Bonds. Papi has finished in the top 8 or less since 2005 and is 4th overall among active players only behind future First Ballot HOFers (Pujols, Cabrera, and Suzuki). Power commands fear because it can change the game with one swing. Edgar never commanded that type of fear in his era. In fact, Edgar never led his league in IBB, ever.
4) Papi had to play in an era against more advanced metrics, which led to more ABs against the shift. Let's cut the BS, Papi is still putting up sick numbers while having to deal with the shift on most ABs. Want proof that the shift is being employed even more last year?
http://www.billjamesonline.com/whos_shifting_and_whos_not/
If Papi continues to put up big numbers this late in his career, especially against better metrics/tactics like the shift, then you have to put him on par with Edgar in my opinion. Regardless, they were both the best DH's of their eras and if one got in, the other should also get in.
Huh? good luck selling tickets in that POS idea of a ballpark and with a foul-line@258ft add17 more HR's to Ortiz's stats not to mention having 2-3 inside the park HR's every game. Fenway is a national treasure and should NEVER be taken down OR Wrigley field, as we pass through our life's enjoying baseball Fenway and Wrigley ARE baseball, imperfect yet timeless, after we are all long gone and pushing up daisies, 200 years from now people should come to a place of where 10 generations ago the game was played, it's called "historic", why don't they just tear down Big Ben and replace it with a modern giant LED clock,... NO!, NO!, NO!,NO!,NO!,... not now, not next year, not next EVER!...When the Sox owners started looking for places for a spot to replace Fenway they were quickly informed by current patrons if you build it, we won't go and they were not joking. With the reactions from the fan base and looking at insane amounts of $$ to acquire enough space in downtown Boston for a new park they came to their senses and just upgraded Fenway a little with the seats above the "monster"..
To those who still think DH shouldn't be included.
Ayrahvon said:Wouldn't that disqualify any pitchers who benefited from never having to swing a bat thanks to that DH on their team?
Fred McGriff with 493 homeruns got a mere 11% of the vote. Craig Biggio with 3,060 hits got 74% of the vote. Amassing career long statistics is not a guarantee into the Hall of Fame anymore.
Mike Piazza I believe without a doubt should be in the Hall, although the voters haven't agree with me on that one yet. Next year is a big year with Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, & Gary Sheffield entering on the ballot. Johnson & Martinez are no-doubt HOFers. How many votes Sheffield gets will be one indication of the power of 500+ homeruns over McGriff's 493, and a predictor for Ortiz's legacy.
Except nobody in this thread is making the argument DH's should be excluded from the Hall.
I absolutely make the case the DH should be excluded from the game of baseball But they are a part of the game due to the mistake that lesser league made four decades ago, and are eligible for the Hall. They just don't get any bonus credit for being a skilled bench warmer between plate appearances for the rest of the team who does field a position. They have to work double-duty at the plate.
Name me one position player who can put up similar numbers in the pitcher's role to those pitchers being seriously considered in the HOF voting. Just one.
On the other hand, I can easily name a dozen recent position players who have put up superior numbers to Ortiz in the skill that Ortiz has chosen to specialize himself in.
Hall of Fame level juicer for sure. Designated Hitters should be excluded on general principle. If you can't haul your fat ass out of the dugout and field a position you're not a great player.
DH should be expanded if anything. The only reason to watch a pitcher hit is to see Bartolo Colon look like an idiot.
Edgar had a career 147 wrc+ that means he was 47% better than the average hitter during his career, Ortiz 38%. There are very few people who manage to sport that type of production over a career, in the field or not. I just don't get why anyone would be against allowing players who otherwise would be injured constantly to play in DH instead of watching joke at bats from pitchers.
The DH was put in place during a time when pitchers dominated the game, the era of Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale, etc., the sport was in need of changing the rules to score more runs. Lowering the mound was one rule change that helped score more runs. The DH was another. Can't really say that the game is in desperate need of runs today. Most would argue the game has too much scoring.
I'd contend the last few years have been another period of seriously dominate pitching! You have mentioned that there are pitchers who can hit (say Greinke for example isn't half bad) but even still, I just don't think pitchers should have to hit. I agree that offense isn't the end all be all of the sport. Many of my favorite games are pitching battles. I like that there is a difference between the NL and AL. While I think that, I also don't think that great DH players should be punished for playing DH, but the bar should certainly be set high for them to make the hall (Edgar Martinez anyone!?).