DC: If 'Initiative 77' passes, it may start the end of tipping at restaurants

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,842
9,088
136
https://www.washingtonian.com/2018/...ut-initiative-77-and-the-tipped-minimum-wage/

right now, wait staff make less than the federal minimum wage in DC.
if Initiative 77 passes, then all tipped workers will have the same city minimum wage as everyone else, which is currently $12.50/hr.

hopefully that means the start of the end of tipping!

Isn't that how Europe does it? Pay them more, remove tipping as a custom? I can't remember exactly but I thought the practice there is to tip 5% (for good service) or not tip at all.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
In California tipped workers make the same minimum wage as everyone else but tipping still exists. I think tipping is stupid and should be done away with but sadly I think that will require changing cultural norms.
 
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JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,302
126
In California tipped workers make the same minimum wage as everyone else but tipping still exists. I think tipping is stupid and should be done away with but sadly I think that will require changing cultural norms.
add federal law that says mgmt. keeps all tips so it applies to all 50states
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
I would be fine with that. I hate tipping and it also bothers me that so many need it to survive. Let them get a proper salary.
 
Reactions: Bitek

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,135
1,594
126
Everyone loves to ignore professional waiters because few can imagine why anyone would want the job. The same is true for anyone in the service industry. Giving service is an honorable job that is looked down on by most Americans. Most look at it as something the poor or, unskilled are "forced to do" because they don't have a decent education in the "right" STEM field. That's bullshit. Many of us have careers in the service industry because, that's where our talent lays. Pay is lousy but, front of the house folks can make decent money in tips. The anti tipping idiots can diaf.
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
29,682
43,943
136
Tipping is stupid and all the pro-tippers can diaf, pay a respectable wage and stop groveling towards customers for a tip when wages should be the employers expense. I know that the USA is bizzaro world compared to the rest of the world in this concept but hopefully it can catch on eventually.
 
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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,523
27,825
136
Pay the workers a living wage and require the restaurant owner to live on tips, not profits from operations. I would expect the most amazing service ever. "Like your experience? Tip the owner." We could apply this model to all enterprise. CEOs would have to earn their millions.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,077
136
Everyone loves to ignore professional waiters because few can imagine why anyone would want the job. The same is true for anyone in the service industry. Giving service is an honorable job that is looked down on by most Americans. Most look at it as something the poor or, unskilled are "forced to do" because they don't have a decent education in the "right" STEM field. That's bullshit. Many of us have careers in the service industry because, that's where our talent lays. Pay is lousy but, front of the house folks can make decent money in tips. The anti tipping idiots can diaf.
I really enjoy fine dining as well as high end bars. I tip very heavily (ATOT heads would probably explode) at such places if I really enjoy myself and I consider it part of paying for "the experience." I think there are a large percentage of people who have never been somewhere where the bartender, waiter, etc provided service beyond just bringing food and beverage. Therefore they appreciate the profession less as they've never actually experienced it done at a professional level.

That said, I do wish across the board expected tipping at all levels should DIAF.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
Pay the workers a living wage and require the restaurant owner to live on tips, not profits from operations. I would expect the most amazing service ever. "Like your experience? Tip the owner." We could apply this model to all enterprise. CEOs would have to earn their millions.
Tipping is stupid and all the pro-tippers can diaf, pay a respectable wage and stop groveling towards customers for a tip when wages should be the employers expense. I know that the USA is bizzaro world compared to the rest of the world in this concept but hopefully it can catch on eventually.
In many states they are already paid minimum wage and they still gets tips. Them making more money hasn't changed anything.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Tipping is stupid and all the pro-tippers can diaf, pay a respectable wage and stop groveling towards customers for a tip when wages should be the employers expense. I know that the USA is bizzaro world compared to the rest of the world in this concept but hopefully it can catch on eventually.

Tipping encourages better service. My experience in Europe is that, apart from super expensive establishments, the service in restaurants is way worse than it is here in the US.

For those who think eliminating the practice of tipping will save you money on your meal, it should be obvious that raising the labor cost will come through as an increase in the price of your meal. You're going to pay either way. At least tipping is optional, as is the amount of it if you decide to tip. You can base it off the quality of service. If the meal price increases, you aren't going to have any control over that.
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,517
280
126
www.the-teh.com
Tipping encourages better service. My experience in Europe is that, apart from super expensive establishments, the service in restaurants is way worse than it is here in the US.

For those who think eliminating the practice of tipping will save you money on your meal, it should be obvious that raising the labor cost will come through as an increase in the price of your meal. You're going to pay either way. At least tipping is optional, as is the amount of it if you decide to tip. You can base it off the quality of service. If the meal price increases, you aren't going to have any control over that.

Plus with meal prices higher (they'll be a lot higher) it's going to mean a higher tip.

You should tip first anyway and you'll get a better experience.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
Tipping encourages better service. My experience in Europe is that, apart from super expensive establishments, the service in restaurants is way worse than it is here in the US.

For those who think eliminating the practice of tipping will save you money on your meal, it should be obvious that raising the labor cost will come through as an increase in the price of your meal. You're going to pay either way. At least tipping is optional, as is the amount of it if you decide to tip. You can base it off the quality of service. If the meal price increases, you aren't going to have any control over that.

If the purpose of tipping is to improve service why don’t we tip our lawyers?

I have been to every continent except Antarctica and have experienced tipping and non-tipping cultures on both ends. I have noticed no difference in service. I’m not aware of many people who think eliminating tips will save money, it’s just a fundamentally dumb practice. There’s no other sector where you don’t simply purchase the items you want at their actual cost, tipping just transfers the cost of labor from all customers to the select customers who choose to tip well.

Anyone who thinks tipping culture is about getting better service is fooling themselves. There’s a reason we tip service jobs that are perceived as low status and don’t tip service jobs that are perceived as high status.
 
Last edited:

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
I'm just wondering who ultimately "wins" with this. I'm not sure it's the restaurant. I'm not sure it's hard working staff. I'm not sure it's even the customer. Restaurants may cut back wait staff considerably to absorb the additional labor costs. This ends up with less servers covering more tables at a time. That's ultimately worse service that the server really doesn't have control over. They can only reasonably manage so many tables. Table turnover will be slower. Customers will be less happy. Staff will be more stressed and there is no incentive of doing "better" since they aren't working for tips any more. And ultimately they may end up making less per hour than they were.

I'm sure there are some edge cases where staff slower restaurants or slow shifts the staff will come out ahead. But overall, I'm struggling to see a true winner in this.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
I'm just wondering who ultimately "wins" with this. I'm not sure it's the restaurant. I'm not sure it's hard working staff. I'm not sure it's even the customer. Restaurants may cut back wait staff considerably to absorb the additional labor costs. This ends up with less servers covering more tables at a time. That's ultimately worse service that the server really doesn't have control over. They can only reasonably manage so many tables. Table turnover will be slower. Customers will be less happy.

Why couldn’t restaurants just increase their prices to the tipped amount and keep total costs and revenues identical? Then everyone pays the real price and everyone knows that price going in.

The cost of labor and customer service is priced in when you buy a shirt, a car, or basically anything else. Why should lunch be special?

Staff will be more stressed and there is no incentive of doing "better" since they aren't working for tips any more.

I don’t know what work you do but by this logic shouldn’t your salary be cut and you given the opportunity to make up the difference in tips? After all, what other incentive would you have?

Why shouldn’t we make all jobs tipped? Your heart surgeon?

And ultimately they may end up making less per hour than they were.

I'm sure there are some edge cases where staff slower restaurants or slow shifts the staff will come out ahead. But overall, I'm struggling to see a true winner in this.

The winner is removing a market inefficiency where worker’s wages are paid disproportionately by those who tip well and where those who tip poorly get discounted meals for no reason. It also helps workers in that their wages are more stable.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,865
34,813
136
Tipping encourages better service. My experience in Europe is that, apart from super expensive establishments, the service in restaurants is way worse than it is here in the US.

Intersting, I have the entirely opposite impression. The vast majority of service I've encountered has been very efficient. Though there are most definitely cultural differences in how service is conducted in Europe vs the US. I don't expect the waiter at a restaurant in France to fawn over me the way that most US establishments are trained to do.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
You are reaching on some parallels that can't be compared there. A heart surgeon can be more efficient than another and do more procedures in a given time to increase their income. They have reimbursement to their facility based on outcomes which is directly related to their performance. They can be given more surgical blocks than another due to their performance increasing their income.

An hourly paid waiter can't work two jobs in the same hour to boost their income. They can't be rewarded for efficiency by waiting on more tables in a given hour to boost their income.

What I see happening is casual restaurants (that are often franchise) and are already under hourly wages for their staff getting a boost. Their prices are already baked in and won't change. True sit down restaurants that have to raise their already higher prices are going to see a downtick. Instead of a $15 sit down sandwich, it's going to be $18. Now compare that to a $9 sandwich at Panera or something and people will just start going to Panera more often.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,498
136
You are reaching on some parallels that can't be compared there. A heart surgeon can be more efficient than another and do more procedures in a given time to increase their income. They have reimbursement to their facility based on outcomes which is directly related to their performance. They can be given more surgical blocks than another due to their performance increasing their income.

A heart surgeon’s efficiency has nothing to do with tipping because his efficiency is largely irrelevant to his customers. What they care about is his QUALITY. I strongly suspect that a doctor’s attempt to see more patients as you describe would make his median patient less satisfied and likely make his quality worse.

Similarly in a restaurant under the theory of tipping you don’t care how many tables a waiter is serving, you care about their quality of service to you personally.

Since I’m both cases the thing we are trying to incentivize is the quality of service to the individual customer there’s no reason we shouldn’t tip our doctors or lawyers. In fact there’s little reason we shouldn’t tip almost every job. Doctors and lawyers would likely find this arrangement insulting though because as we all know, tipping isn’t actually about incentivizing good service, at least not primarily.

An hourly paid waiter can't work two jobs in the same hour to boost their income. They can't be rewarded for efficiency by waiting on more tables in a given hour to boost their income.

Oh come on. Even though efficiency isn’t the point of tipping a more efficient waiter could easily be given more tables to work in a section with more responsibility that pays better. You know, just like in every other job.

In some ways this already happens where the best servers are given the most desireable sections to work.

What I see happening is casual restaurants (that are often franchise) and are already under hourly wages for their staff getting a boost. Their prices are already baked in and won't change. True sit down restaurants that have to raise their already higher prices are going to see a downtick. Instead of a $15 sit down sandwich, it's going to be $18. Now compare that to a $9 sandwich at Panera or something and people will just start going to Panera more often.

The $15 sandwich is already $18 today, you just pay it in two parts and cheap people get to opt into a discount for no reason. If you eliminate tipping the $18 sandwich is still $18 but now the good tippers no longer subsidize the bad. Everyone wins except for freeloading bad tippers.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Isn't that how Europe does it? Pay them more, remove tipping as a custom? I can't remember exactly but I thought the practice there is to tip 5% (for good service) or not tip at all.

It is how it used to be in the United States until prohibition went into effect. But yes, my experience in Europe is no tipping.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Tipping encourages better service. My experience in Europe is that, apart from super expensive establishments, the service in restaurants is way worse than it is here in the US.

For those who think eliminating the practice of tipping will save you money on your meal, it should be obvious that raising the labor cost will come through as an increase in the price of your meal. You're going to pay either way. At least tipping is optional, as is the amount of it if you decide to tip. You can base it off the quality of service. If the meal price increases, you aren't going to have any control over that.

I don't think it will save me money. I'd expect the cost of food to go up to pay the wait and cooking staff a reasonable wage. I am 100% fine with paying more for food to eliminate the tipping process. A process that is an annoying end to an otherwise good experience.
 
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