DDR2 RAM for Q6600 + ASUS P5K DELUXE + 8800GT?

Johnny Nuge

Member
May 2, 2007
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Any suggestions? I am building a gaming computer for a friend. Looking to put 4GB of good + fast RAM with overclocking potential in his system. He doesn't know much about overclocking, but I'd like him to have that option (I'll leave a preset in his BIOS). I haven't been keeping up with the latest in computer parts, but I do notice a ton of mail in rebate deals on RAM. They all seem pretty decent, but I'd like an educated opinion on what are the best deals right now. Thanks.
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
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http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=T8UB2GC5&show=p
$103/2x2GB=4GB

http://shop1.outpost.com/product/5200607
$99/2x2GB=4GB.

Both should be nice solid 400MHz (PC2-6400 DDR2 unbuffered CAS=5) RAM.

I wouldn't assume either would overclock a LOT, so maybe in the 440MHz range
might be a reasonable guess.

The SYSTEM Overclock you can get depends on the CPU max multiplier, the
motherboard chipset and design/BIOS.

On the P35 chipset motherboards I've used like the ASUS P5K-E/P5k-Deluxe
the RAM speed is linked to the CPU speed as follows.

My CPU has a max x9 locked multiplier, Intel makes them that way,
nothing you can do about it. Other CPU models may have x8 max multis,
others may have x10 or more...

So RAM = 400 MHz, fastest possible CPU = 400 Mhz x9 (at x9 CPU max multi) =
3600 = 3.6GHz, a decent overclock if your CPU is rated for 1.8-2.5Ghz stock speed.

Bump RAM to 440, 440x9 = 3960Mhz CPU maximum, and you're well faster than
MOST CPUs can possibly handle on even the highest achievable air cooling.

If the CPU has x8 max. multi then 440x8 = 3520MHz CPU, still a decent overclock
that's equal to or more than what's achivable with many CPUs even with
extremely good case, power supply, and high end air cooler heatsink.

Bottom line: 400 MHz rated RAM OC'd to maybe around 440 or so MHz is
probably more than enough to OC decently most any mainstream or
mid-high-end gaming CPU in the Core2 or Core-Quad lineup with air cooling.

If you got the PC2-8000 (500 MHz rated) RAMs from Newegg or wherever
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820231145
...you could hit at least 500MHz RAM speed, probably over 520Mhz, but
do the math and that really doesn't let you overclock your CPU much any
faster for the vast majority of CPUs out there, so it doesn't benefit your
overall system overclock to get RAM that fast.

Memory performance (ignoring CPU issues) is going to be more than
adequate for a gaming overclock regardless of if the memory itself is running
at 400 MHz or 500 MHz, even dual-channel 333MHz memory runs pretty well
given a good CPU and good graphics card.

The best performance for the buck is MORE memory, i.e. going with 4GB vs 2GB
system memory, rather than trying to get memory that's any FASTER i.e.
500 MHz or going for 400 MHz faster cycles at 4-4-4-12 timings vs. 5-5-5-15.

Just get the cheap price, good quality 400 MHz RAM, 2x2GB sticks, you'll be all
set.

Some other chipsets (Nvidia 650/680 or 780 or whatever???) MAY give you
more flexible CPU clocking vs. memory bus speeds than the P35s inability
to UNDERCLOCK the RAM relative to the CPU base frequency, so in those cases
you have even less of a constraint on memory speed / frequency to get
the max. possible CPU overclock. But in any case you can hit all the
overclock you need with decent 400 MHz RAM.

I wouldn't go with any chipset older than the P35 or correspondingly new
NVIDIA chips (not that I'd buy the NVIDIAs personally), though.


regardless o
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
1,855
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PS rebates suck, so to avoid the hassle, that eWiz SuperTalent memory
is awesome, though the Patriots w/ rebate should be fine too.

Doubt you'd see much impact of the speed / latency differences between either
one, though the Patriots are probably a bit faster though they need a bit
higher voltage to get there by their own specification.

Cooling is important to enable a decent CPU overclock.

ThermalRight Ultra 120 Extreme has been the best air cooler ($65ish) for
many months, though it's kind of finicky to install sometimes, and is heavy
enough that you really don't want to slam / drop the PC or drive it around in
a truck with it installed unsupported because the vibrations and its weight/torque
would be a lot of stress on the motherboard.

The stock Intel/AMD heatsinks underperform for overclocking, so you'd need
SOMETHING better than those or THEY'd be the overclock limiters.

Tuniq Tower 120 is OK too.

Cooler Master GEMINI-II is sometimes CHEAP (under $18) after rebate, or even
has been FREE after rebate sometimes, but you get what you pay for.
It's unreasonably MASSIVE, a real pain to install, doesn't cool as well as the
TRU120E above, but it is CHEAP, and it does cool very well IFF you install
it just perfectly with the right amount of paste and screw it / mount it just right.
NOT suggested if the PC will be moved around much or without great care
due to the weight/size issue.

I'd say the quad cpus like X3210, Q6600, Q9450 are the best performance
deals for future gaming given their reasonable prices and amazing performance,
and that many games now are supporting multi-core benefits, and more and more
will in the future.

Then again the GPU is the key, so a good 8800GT and at least a mid-range
dual core CPU will be a pretty good setup.

Watch out for the fan bug in the 8800GTs; the fan never speeds up and they
get too hot. Get a fixed BIOS for the card or use a tuner application like
rivatuner to set the fan speed 'manually' to 60% to avoid excessive heat.

EarthWatts 550 on sale @ Fry's FTW ($39-$50 range), or
maybe Antec Trio 650W on sale when you can find it under $70.
Of course other models/deals may be considered good too.
 

GundamF91

Golden Member
May 14, 2001
1,827
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Great info QuixoticOne

So what you are saying is that DDR2-800/PC2-6400 should be enough for regular aircooled overclocked LGA775 processors? Same with E2180 which has factory 10x multiplier?

In case of CPU with 10x multiplier, what memory should be used, since 4Ghz is really impossible. What memory speed should the E2180 use? 10x400 would be 4Ghz. It sounds like either memory needs to be slowed down, or reduce the multiplier.

For memory speed to go down, I think factory default is 200mhz, to make default as 10x200=2.0Ghz. Would DDR2-800 be able to run at 200mhz speed? And doesnt' this mean DDR2-800 would be overkill for E2180?

For multiplier reduction, does Intel lock the multiplier from going down? For example, set the E2180 mulitiplier to 8x, but use the 400mhz DDR2, so it's 3.2Ghz, same overclock, but more bandwidth. In that case, would you use the DDR2-1066/PC2-8500 memory to up the FSB to 533Mhz and lower multiplier even more?

Also, is the above scenario limited by the motherboard's capability also? Thanks for any advice.
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
1,855
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Yes, it's correct that DDR2-800 (PC2-6400 / 400 MHz base freq.) memory is perfect for any CPU with x9 or x10 or x11 or higher multiplier.
It's perfect in the sense that it will not limit your CPU's highest practical overclock no matter what chipset motherboard you have since
many times the RAM has to run at least as fast (in the base input clock) as the CPU does (before the CPU multiplier and DDR multiplier).

Now Intel CPUs aren't 'designed' to be overclocked, so most CPUs have base clocks in the 266 MHz (FSB 1066) or 333 MHz (new FSB 1333 CPUs) area.
They do design the motherboards to use faster RAM than these LOW CPU default base clocks since it gives marginal benefit to be able to run
the RAM a bit faster than the CPU. That's the FSB:RAM multiplier which usually lets the RAM clock at various multiples of the CPU base clock.
A typical situation is to allow CPU:RAM options of : 266:266 (DDR2-533) ; 266:333 (DDR2-667) ; 266:400 (DDR2-800) and
occasionally 266:500 (DDR2-1066).

If the CPU/motherboard chipset supports 333 MHz 'default' CPUs for FSB1333 then typically you'd have to use at least DDR2-667 memory
which really has a base clock of 333 MHz since that's the slowest DRAM that has a base clock as fast as the CPU's base clock.
Multipliers available in that case would be CPURAM 333:333 ; 333:400 ; 333:500 (maybe) and so on.

But if you overclock the CPU then the chipset doesn't really change the available multiplier ratios for RAM, so the RAM speeds would proportionally
increase and you'd have to run the RAM at a slower and slower multiplier over the CPU base clock to stay within reasonable RAM speeds.

So to answer the question as to PC2-6400 (400) MHz memory being overkill for a CPU @ x10 (max), the CPU will be running at around
300 MHz (x10=3000) to 400 MHz (4GHz) range typically with a decently OCable CPU and good cooling.

So you'd skip 266 MHz RAM (DDR2-533 PC2-4200), and have say DDR2-333 (PC-5300)) running around 1:1 (CPU:RAM) if for example
the CPU can run 333x10=3330; or DDR2-400 PC2-6400 RAM running around normal speed if the motherboard has a 333:400 CPU:RAM multiplier.

You CAN lower the multiplier for any modern Intel CPU down to around x6, you just cannot raise it over their max. locked value.
People like high multipliers since it lets a low clock rate run the CPU to max OC without needing a motherboard or RAM that's supporting a
very fast clock rate to do it. Whereas if the CPU has a max. multi of x8, you can see you'd need quite fast RAM to even hit 3.5GHz on the CPU
since that'd need 500 MHz range frequencies for the RAM and Motherboard.

So in your situation you could end up with a maximum reasonable 380:380 range setting at CPURAM of 1:1 to get 3.8 GHz for x10 CPU multi
though of course you might be CPU/heat limited to less than that. That's where you get into the range where the
CPU clock is slowing down the RAM a bit because it's ALMOST the 400 which DDR2-400/PC2-6400 would run stock at, but too fast for the
next higher CPURAM multiplier to be used since that'd be something like (266:333) * (380/266) = 542 MHz actual RAM clock at the next
higher CPU:RAM multiplier you may have available for instance which would be too fast for most any affordable RAM.

So to answer your other question, YES, you can run RAM (or the CPU) at any reasonable LOWER speed than the maximum it's designed to support,
you just have limited room to go higher. If the RAM OC'ed by 10% over stock that'd be very reasonable. 20% RAM OC certainly possible but
not guaranteed.

Usually the RAM that's slower at stock speed OCs better whereas you get less OC out of RAM that's in the 400MHz or 500Mhz range to begin with.

So then you may consider dopping the CPU multi to x9 and try for something like 9x420=3780 with 400 MHz RAM; your CPU may not hit quite that
MHz, but even if it did it'd be a much more modest (i.e. usually achievable without instability) OC for 400MHz RAM, whle being more likely to
get the max. OC out of the CPU, with the advantage that the RAM wouldn't be slowed down much or at all relative to its own stock clock or
available OC by the CPU clock.

Thus you end up often running the CPURAM at 1:1 which has certain advantages for overall efficiency, and playing with the shared
CPU&RAM base clock in the 300:450 MHz range with various CPU only multipliers set to match the CPU and RAM speed.

Yes you could certainly end up with 400 MHz RAM being overkill for an x10 CPU that's never likely to hit 4GHz = 400:400 @ 1:1, but
you have to look at the alternatives.

Is 333 MHz (PC2-5300) RAM a lot cheaper than 400 MHz RAM? Not usually in today's market. There are exceptions, but there are some
exceptionally GOOD prices on 400 MHz RAM nowdays; it's probably the most commonly used speed for mid-range and enthusiast builds,
so it's also tending to be the best value.

Would 333 MHz RAM possibly limit the CPU OC? Well if the RAM could OC to 370, it'd probably just about max. out the CPU under
any reasonable expectation @ 370x10, so, no, it'd be fast enough.

If you buy 400 MHz RAM could you run it with slightly better cycle timings than 333 MHz RAM? Maybe, ok, so that's one slight possible advantage.
If you had the two options for basically identical prices for the same capacity, of course get the faster RAM.

Is 500 MHz RAM about the same price as 400 MHz RAM? No, the sweet spot of the market is 400 MHz or maybe 333 MHz now, and the
500 MHz stuff is like at least 33% more expensive and a lot rarer than the 400 MHz stuff, so get it only if you need it for an x8 locked CPU.
Save the money and buy either a faster CPU or MORE cheap 333 MHz or 400 MHz RAM.

The last factor is that the actual RAM SPEED doesn't matter much for common Intel CPUs. They certainly WRITE to the RAM a lot slower than
even DDR2-4200 RAM could support in dual channel just by the CPU design. They READ from the RAM faster, but, still, like 30% slower than
a comparable AMD CPU does with the same RAM. Intel's design decision is to offer CPUs with more CACHE memory, integrate better
RAM prefetch logic into the Core2 CPUs, and change the processor design so that it makes better use of slower RAM to get overall better
performance than the AMD CPUs tend to at the moment. So in that respect it's not a big deal whether you have 333, 400, 500 MHz RAM in
dual channel on a Core2 CPU with at least a reasonable amount of L2 cache. As long as you have ENOUGH RAM the performance will be
within a few percent to the application.

The main factor therefore is RAM PRICE, and AMOUNT of RAM, and making sure it's fast enough that you can OC the CPU to at least
around 3.5 GHz more or less since that's almost free almost guaranteed extra performance.

And avoid the junk RAM that's specified with slow CL6 or 5-5-5-23 timings or needs 2.1V to work and get the cheap
and plentiful 5-5-5-15 / 5-5-5-18 (best overall value) or 4-4-4-12 (usually much less of a good value) rated RAM that runs
at 1.8 or 1.9V and you're all set!

The bottom just melted out from under the 2GB ram prices, so it's hard to pass up $48 to $50 / 2GB stick prices to get
overall 4GB in dual channel identical DIMM model setups. That way it's plenty fast, plenty cheap for a mid-range build,
and more than enough memory to guarantee sweet application performance for years to come!

PS The motherboard chipset also lets you UNDERCLOCK freely and also LOWER multipliers freely in GENERAL. If you have
some DELL or HP or e-Machines or whatever really DUMBED DOWN BIOS maybe it'll give you ZERO control of clocks, timing, volts,
etc. and may even refuse to work with non-OEM branded memory/HDDs etc. etc.

But any even remotely modern chipset since the 965, 975, P35, nF4, 650, 680, with a reasonable BIOS that you'd get on any
typical modern DFI/ASUS/ABIT/GIGABYTE/etc. motherboard will give you at least some control of the timings, MHz, voltages, etc.
so you have no real motherboard based limits. I'd go with a cheap P35 chipset motherboard if you like Intel chipsets in this
day and age, personally.


Originally posted by: GundamF91
Great info QuixoticOne

So what you are saying is that DDR2-800/PC2-6400 should be enough for regular aircooled overclocked LGA775 processors? Same with E2180 which has factory 10x multiplier?

In case of CPU with 10x multiplier, what memory should be used, since 4Ghz is really impossible. What memory speed should the E2180 use? 10x400 would be 4Ghz. It sounds like either memory needs to be slowed down, or reduce the multiplier.

For memory speed to go down, I think factory default is 200mhz, to make default as 10x200=2.0Ghz. Would DDR2-800 be able to run at 200mhz speed? And doesnt' this mean DDR2-800 would be overkill for E2180?

For multiplier reduction, does Intel lock the multiplier from going down? For example, set the E2180 mulitiplier to 8x, but use the 400mhz DDR2, so it's 3.2Ghz, same overclock, but more bandwidth. In that case, would you use the DDR2-1066/PC2-8500 memory to up the FSB to 533Mhz and lower multiplier even more?

Also, is the above scenario limited by the motherboard's capability also? Thanks for any advice.

 

GundamF91

Golden Member
May 14, 2001
1,827
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0
Thanks for the through analysis, this is better than searching around the internet for answers to memory questions for the past whole week!

Im' running XP right now, would 2GB be enough, or would 4GB really be worthwhile? I basically use the computer for gaming (Battlefield 2, Oblivion, Supreme Commander), and sometimes for watching video. I figure if I only buy 1 stick of 2Gb, I can save $40 at least, and with that I can afford a better motherboard, or get a better CPU.
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
1,855
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0
I noticed a big improvement going from 1G to 2G for BF2.
I think Oblivion and SC use a bit more memory then again they're not FPS intensive
like BF2 etc.

Overall I think you're fine with 2GB given what you do with your PC.

I'm sure there'd be a slight benefit of having 4G, but not as much as the benefit
of having say a faster CPU or better heatsink to OC a little more.

Those $7 after rebate Gemini II heatsinks @ zipzoomfly are pretty good for the buck,
though really a pain in the butt to install and overly HUGE, but oh well, cheap.

I've seen 2GB kits of decent DDR2-800 for like $39 lately, sometime less,
so it's a good time to get either 2x1G sticks or 2x2G sticks, but as you point out,
you might as well invest the extra $40 in a better CPU or whatever.


Originally posted by: GundamF91
Thanks for the through analysis, this is better than searching around the internet for answers to memory questions for the past whole week!

Im' running XP right now, would 2GB be enough, or would 4GB really be worthwhile? I basically use the computer for gaming (Battlefield 2, Oblivion, Supreme Commander), and sometimes for watching video. I figure if I only buy 1 stick of 2Gb, I can save $40 at least, and with that I can afford a better motherboard, or get a better CPU.

 

GundamF91

Golden Member
May 14, 2001
1,827
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Yeah, I figure 2GB will be enough...so the question is whether I should do dual channel with 2x1GB, or leave possibility open by getting 1x2GB so I can upgrade to dual channel later.
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
1,855
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I assume the motherboard has only 2 slots yet does support dual channel?

It's a non-issue with 4-DIMM-slot motherboards since you'll still have 2 free slots
to expand RAM even if you use 2x1GB for now.

Hmm dual channel doesn't make too much difference, but if you're only
planning to have 2GB total for the forseeable future, going single channel
is still giving up some little bit of free performance that you may never use.

I'd probably go with 2x1GB if I was pretty sure I'd keep 2GB capacity total,
and if I was pretty sure I'd upgrade to 4GB within a year, I'd definitely either
just buy 4GB now or get 1x2GB.


Originally posted by: GundamF91
Yeah, I figure 2GB will be enough...so the question is whether I should do dual channel with 2x1GB, or leave possibility open by getting 1x2GB so I can upgrade to dual channel later.

 

GundamF91

Golden Member
May 14, 2001
1,827
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0
The board does have 4 slots, just that I kept hearing about filling all 4 slots will actually reduce performance.
 

Axell

Junior Member
Oct 9, 2006
3
0
0
Sorry to revive this sort'a old Topic, but I have the same motherboard as the author and have a doubt here.
I'm about to buy 2Gb of DDR2 800 PC2 6400 for my system, and I'm no expert at memories and so I ran across two different brands and I have doubts about which performs better for my budget:

Transcend AxeRAM 4-4-4-12 1.8V
Patriot Extreme Performance 4-4-4-12 2.2V

Even thought they are selling for the same price (a $3 difference), the guy selling the Transcend memory gives no receipt[besides the fact I suspect it comes from the gray market]. Should I risk my money and buy it? Transcend has lower voltage, I know, but buying the Patriot I can rest assured I bought it legally. Would the voltage difference of both make that huge of an impact on the system?

Intel Core 2 Duo E6750[stock, for now]
ASUS P5K Deluxe WiFi-AP
Seventeam ST-420BKV PSU
XFX Geforce 7600GT XxX Edition

Thanks guys!
 
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