(Dead) Dell 1800FP 18.1" only $384 Free Ship + Tax w/ NEW 5% Coupon & 10% Auto Discount

[Politik]

I'm not sure how ClearType works exactly, but I have seen this red or other color shading on fonts on other monitors (including LCDs) when I enable ClearType.

I'm thinking that ClearType in fact functions by changing the colors in fonts? I mean, are we supposed to believe that ClearType magically sharpens fonts? No.... so I think some LCDs work with ClearType and some don't. Don't worry, ClearType is a hack developed to be used on laptop LCDs anyways.

 

[Politik]

Got more information on ClearType. It works as follows:

An LCD screen has pixels (1280x1024 in our case) which are composed of sub-pixels, which are Red, Green and Blue. ClearType uses these subpixels as if they were themselves pixels, to smooth screen fonts. For example, if you had black text on a white background, the "inner" pixels in each font character would be black as normal (these are the pixels that are black without anti-aliasing or ClearType). In the pixels bordering these black pixels, ClearType goes to work and also alters the subpixels of these neighboring pixels, in a way that is supposed to smooth the fonts.

Continuing with this black-text-on-white-background example, you can see the consequence here.. the border of the font characters will not be black or shades of grey (as one would expect with anti-aliasing). The bordering pixels will in fact be colored. This is the... uh... genius of ClearType.

One reason it may be particularly noticeable on the 1800FP is the relatively large pixels.. I believe they are .28 or so, but I cant remember.

You may be asking yourself... "Self, why dont they use ClearType on CRT monitors? They have subpixels too..." The answer is, ClearType is BS. Any benefit you perceive as a result of ClearType can easily be attributed to the fact that the fonts are now thicker due to the neighboring pixels being "smoothed" into the font.

This smoothing is exactly why anti-aliasing algorithms were created. Use anti-aliasing, and forgettaboutit.

If you want to examine this coloring effect for yourself, simply turn on ClearType, go to a black-text on white-background screen, hit printscreen, paste it into Paint, and zoom in on the text. You can easily see the colors. If you can't get this to work, PM me and I'll see if I can email you a screenshot.

If you are immune to MS's special brand of logic, you can go here to read what I just told you (or tried to) in MS's words.

EDIT: It is not entirely accurate to say that the inner pixels of your fonts will remain black with ClearType. ClearType knows no boundaries! I notice that on my CRT, I can easily see that the main body of the font is blue in places. Go figure. Also note that the actual coloring effect you get will depend on what selections you make on MS's ClearType config site. Still, the fact remains that ClearType works through coloring.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: BentValve

What game are you talking about that your Ti4200 struggled with at 1280x1024? What sort of 3D Marks was your system pulling
with that Ti4200 installed?[/quote]
12223 on a 1.775GHz Athlon XP and Ti4200 Turbo at 310/650. UT2K3 was the worst, but also MW4 Mercs and BF1942 could really chug. They all run smooth as silk on with my 9700pro; Native with max details is truly amazing in BF1942 and MW4: Mercs, simply cinematic. JK2 was not as smooth as I would've liked, but that was more b/c of my CPU than video card. WC3 ran great on my Ti4200 at 1600x1280x32, so 1280 was no prob at native. SoF2 (same with RTCW though I don't play it much) was mostly maxed at 115fps, but occasionally it would drop to <80fps which was less than I like. Scrolling in NWN would slow down sometimes when scrolling, but I think that was a system memory/swap file issue with the 64MB textures. I always run max details, and never ran AA, only AF with my Ti4200.

I will admit that my Ti4200 does struggle a little in UT2K3 at 1280x1024 but that is the only game is has any issues with and I
figured that was due to the fact that my card is only 64mb.

It might be a bit better now since I've upgraded both my RAM (2x at higher FSB w/ tighter timings) and added ~600MHz to my CPU speed, but I'm pretty sure I'd still get a little choppy in big firefights at max details at 1280 with my current rig. UT2K3 is one of the few games that can use more than 64MB of onboard RAM, but I don't think the difference between the 64MB and 128MB versions was that significant.

Well my Ti4200 does not have DVI anyways so I guess its time to upgrade it, the Geforce FX is out, the 9800 looks nice but its not
loads faster than the 9700 Pro however it does seem to run alot cooler and OC good as well.
I can nab a new retail 9700 Pro for $285 shipped right now so I think that is the best value at the moment.
How well does your 9700 Pro OC?

I actually don't OC it. I've had enough problems getting it to run correctly (driverwise) and still haven't gotten it to take to high FSB speeds (over 195mhz), so I've been keeping it at stock to minimize the number of things to troubleshoot. Plus, ATi's UDA is still piss-poor, so its kind of a PITA to install so many things and then install an OC'er on top of it each time I upgrade my drivers. I've gotten it to 365/340 though with ramsinks on the BGA, but the card gets hella hot, even when not OC'd, which is another reason I don't run it OC'd. I'm considering a 9800pro to see if it fixes some of the hardware related issues I think the 9700pro has, but of course, price will dictate my course of action.

Chiz

 

[BentValve]

I actually don't OC it. I've had enough problems getting it to run correctly (driverwise) and still haven't gotten it to take to high FSB speeds (over 195mhz), so I've been keeping it at stock to minimize the number of things to troubleshoot. Plus, ATi's UDA is still piss-poor, so its kind of a PITA to install so many things and then install an OC'er on top of it each time I upgrade my drivers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Once the 9700 Pro is installed correctly does it still have problems? I suppose its naive to expect a card that does not have
issues. I do know that after running an 8500 for so long that switching to the Ti4200 was a huge improvement and I have
yet to run into any major issues with it although it is still stubborn in many ways like my 8500 was.


I've gotten it to 365/340 though with ramsinks on the BGA, but the card gets hella hot, even when not OC'd, which is another reason I don't run it OC'd. I'm considering a 9800pro to see if it fixes some of the hardware related issues I think the 9700pro has, but of course, price will dictate my course of action.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

What sort of hardware related problems to you think it has? Your freaking me out now,
I am half tempted to try a Ti4600 instead but I am not sure if that would be such a smart move
my Ti4200 OCs easily to 300/600 , I have not tried to take it further but I am sure it would do it.




Politik, I use cleartype on my Sony 21" AG monitor most of the time because it struggles with single pixel text.
Cleartype might have been made for laptops but it should look normal on most anything you use it on, there
is no reason that it should not look right on these 18" LCDs, frankly I am quite concerned at this point....although
it is possible that the guys that are seeing this are just more picky than me.
Most 15" LCDs are .297dp , my 14.1" LCD on my laptop is probably around a .28 or so and I use Cleartype
all of the time because it looks great. A laptop LCD does not differ at all from a desktop LCD as far as I know.
The text on my XGA laptop (native res 1024x768) is crisp as hell with zero bleeding at all.......these 18" LCDs
have a higher resolution therefore theoretically the text should be even crisper. The text on my laptop
beats the hell out of the text on my 21" Sony which is the 3rd most expensive AG monitor that Sony makes and
its nearly new. Oh well , I will be getting my 1800FP by Wed at the latest so I will be able to see for myself.......but
still I would appreciate it if someone could take a high res pic of these bleeding texts so I can see beforehand
if its as bad as I imagine it is then I may not even open mine.

 

[BentValve]

What IS becoming CLEAR is now we are begining to see why these were less than $400 ......
1800FP/Cleartype search at Dell Forums , 1784 results

Fonts over 8pt are quite good looking in "very rare" BRG mode (as opposed to more standard RGB). Unfortunately, smaller fonts are so bad (red and blue side stipes) that I had to turn it off immediately. Any other idea?

. It is just hard to believe that the 1503 via analogue text could be 1000 times better than the 1800!!!
Pictures look great on the 1800 - it's the text that is bad - just seems very blocky. Also, both monitors are running at their native resolution, with normal font size.
Are there any other 1800 owners that have the same type of issue with the text?

I had the 1800FP for 2 days and returned it and ordered the 1900FP. The text on the 1800FP was horrible, even with tweaking it via Microsoft's cleartype webpage. Also, when I was on Microsoft's cleartype page using the "wizard", the 1800FP text looked better thru the BGR configuration, even though it is a RGB monitor. That puzzled me. After receiving the 1900FP, the text looks 100 times better and I get the best looking text thru the RGB configuration which is how it should be.

 

[Trashman]

Thanx for the link BentValve....probably get mine on mon-tues. Must look for a new video card though, my G3-TI200 only has analog connections, need to have DVI, hopefully this cleartype won't be a problem...if it is then it's going back.

 

[BentValve]

Hey I just noticed something and its important........many of the complaints on the Dell site about the cleartype
came from one guy, it is very possible that he had a defective unit or something.
Lets not take any of this too seriously until we see for ourselves.

 

[Trashman]

I understand problems may vary, I'm very much excited to get this monitor.

 

[noxxic]

Here's a more correct link to DELL's form search:

DELL Forum
*15* messages not 1784 (the last link was searching for 1800FP OR cleartype)

Here's another ClearType tool to try:

ClearTweak
I don't know if it'll help that particular problem, but this one lets you adjust the contrast for ClearType.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: BentValve
Once the 9700 Pro is installed correctly does it still have problems? I suppose its naive to expect a card that does not have
issues. I do know that after running an 8500 for so long that switching to the Ti4200 was a huge improvement and I have
yet to run into any major issues with it although it is still stubborn in many ways like my 8500 was.

I've minimized most of the driver issues, but it hasn't been easy. Its kinda like playing whack-a-mole in that respect, you squash one driver groundhog, and another one pops-up. I'm always looking forward to a driver release from ATi, same wasn't true with my last two nVidia cards (Ti200 and Ti4200 Turbo). I'd often skip new dets simply b/c everything was running fine. The Catalyst "UDA" has been the biggest pain though, as there's so much bloat and ambiguous software that comes along with it. Also, its not like nVidia drivers that can just be installed seamlessly over older revisions; I find myself having to fully remove the old Cats (using Regedit, safe mode etc.) to avoid potential conflicts. The main problems have been with other multimedia devices and WDM drivers (TV tuner, PVR and DVD software). Fault might not be completely on ATi, but still shows that nVidia cards are the measuring stick when companies look to ensure compatibility. My current problem is that my CP hangs, which seems to be a pretty common problem after checking out Rage3D. I'm using a tweaking/OC'ing program to compensate.

What sort of hardware related problems to you think it has? Your freaking me out now,
I am half tempted to try a Ti4600 instead but I am not sure if that would be such a smart move
my Ti4200 OCs easily to 300/600 , I have not tried to take it further but I am sure it would do it.

Well, I think the 9700pro was a bit aggressive in its design and features, which is why it has gone through a few revisions. It pushed 8X AGP when no mobos supported it, and as a result ATi had to address the issue with widespread RMAs due to incompatibility. Also, its high level of performance apparently led to highly optimized settings, which gives the card a very low fault tolerance in regards to the AGP bus. I've looked around quite a bit, and it seems the 9700pro doesn't like AGP bus speeds much higher than 66MHz. In some instances, 67MHz is enough to set it into a tailspin. Even in boards with an AGP/PCI lock (nForce2), FSB speeds > 200MHz are rare/nonexistent. Same isn't true with the GF4 series cards. I will not be surprised in the least if the 9700pro has serious issues when 200MHz FSB platforms are officially supported (nForce2, Canterwood, Springdale, KT400A). It still could be a BIOS issue, but I can run any non-3D bench/stress at > 200FSB with no problems. I'll freeze/hang as soon as I run a 3D app. though.
Even when I could get it to run at ~195MHz, games would have a distinct stutter every 3 to 4 seconds. Its since been resolved since I upgraded to BIOS 1002.A for my mobo, but > 200MHz still locks. I'm keeping an eye on the 9800pro for this reason. I wouldn't bother with a Ti4600 upgrade, as you might hit 310-320 and 700Mhz on the RAM, so perf. will be largely linear (and marginal). If you don't OC or don't mind setting the card to 4X AGP or turning off fastwrites if you run into problems, then the 9500/9700/9800 cards are where you'll want to look if you want a performance increase. The 5800 non-ultra isn't too impressive and is expensive ($330 pre-order at CUSA), but the 5600U might be worth keeping an eye on.

Chiz

 

[babutiger]

KrayzyAzn said

cleartype can only be used on this monitor if you have SP-1 installed, because this is a BGR monitor

I know the first part of your statement is incorrect however is there any truth to the 1800FP being a BGR monitor as opposed to a RGB monitor? According to dell's tech specs this monitor's Analog video siganal is RGB.

Cheers!

 

[ihatetigerdirect]

Originally posted by: BostonYuk
Mine's "In Production".....theyre working days and nights to stick that DELL on the front!

I wonder who makes these things!

It's going to take me couple minutes to remove that DELL on the front...

 

[John]

Originally posted by: babutiger
KrayzyAzn said

cleartype can only be used on this monitor if you have SP-1 installed, because this is a BGR monitor

I know the first part of your statement is incorrect however is there any truth to the 1800FP being a BGR monitor as opposed to a RGB monitor? According to dell's tech specs this monitor's Analog video siganal is RGB.

Cheers!

Run the cleartype tool on the 1800FP and you will see it is the rare BGR.

 

[BentValve]

Originally posted by: John

Originally posted by: babutiger
KrayzyAzn said

cleartype can only be used on this monitor if you have SP-1 installed, because this is a BGR monitor

I know the first part of your statement is incorrect however is there any truth to the 1800FP being a BGR monitor as opposed to a RGB monitor? According to dell's tech specs this monitor's Analog video siganal is RGB.

Cheers!

Run the cleartype tool on the 1800FP and you will see it is the rare BGR.

So setting it to BGR takes care of the problem?

 

[John]

Originally posted by: BentValve

So setting it to BGR takes care of the problem?

My post 22 or so spots up....

Yes that's the most current monitor driver. I did not have cleartype enabled, but I went here to enable it, and chose BGR. However I too am noticing the the"rustic" color "il" fonts on some webpages and in "my computer". It looks like the best thing to do at this time is disable clear type.

 

[Politik]

Don't know how I could be more clear on the cause of these ClearType problems...

You are observing colored edges on your fonts. This is because ClearType colors the edges. That is all.

Try turning on anti-aliasing without ClearType before you decide whether the text is sharp or not. With ClearType on, fonts are noticeably thicker, and this is why they *can* be more readable.

 

[az4dan]

um... huge problem.
i confirmed my order like 3 days ago and it still hasnt given me a confirmation, did this happen to anybody else? i hope they dont charge me and NOT send me the lcd X( that would be tragic.
anyways... now taht I was so hyped about getting this lcd i hope they dont cancel the deal on me X(

 

[SUOrangeman]

My contribution inspired by this great deal (and my three 1800FPs now in transit).

-SUO

 

[oneeyejack7]

just received my monitor this morning. w00t w00t!

time to find a video card now.

 

[JoeTX]

First, thanks for this awesome deal!! I decided to come out of "lurk mode" for this one. Mine should be here today (although the expected delivery date has changed from 3/12 to 3/10 to 3/7). One question - what's the best way to get that "Dell" off the front without damaging the finish? Nail Polish Remover?

Joe

 

[oneeyejack7]

Originally posted by: JoeTX
First, thanks for this awesome deal!! I decided to come out of "lurk mode" for this one. Mine should be here today (although the expected delivery date has changed from 3/12 to 3/10 to 3/7). One question - what's the best way to get that "Dell" off the front without damaging the finish? Nail Polish Remover?

Joe

i've never done it on a monitor but some ppl have used bug spray repellant to remove logos on cell phones and it has worked.

 

[ihatetigerdirect]

I heard you could put a bit of gasoline on it and light her up...

 

[noxxic]

WD40

 

[roncarter]

Mine said est. delviery date would be mar 12.. it came today and Im on it now!!! Dang its nice!!!!!!!!!! holy crap its nice!!!!!

 

[coolred]

Mine still says in transit to local carrier. I could really use a tracking number, so i can wager a guess as to when it will arive, so I make sure I listen for the door.