Dear West, please stop using our food as your biofuel.

[shira]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
So in order to save the world from global warming we are going to starve people to death??

Brilliant.

Obviously, these are the only two choices. As has been proven throughout world history, mankind NEVER comes up with new technologies.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: yllus

- In 2008, 18% of U.S. grain production will go to biofuels.

I imagine that a lot of that is genetically modified and thus not suitable to export to third-world countries because of European fears of science.

More likely patent protection, you can be sued for for not following cotractual obligations like storing seed for the next crop.

Biotechnology companies and seed distributors that market GMO seeds to farmers usually require that farmers sign grower or technology agreements. These agreements generally give the farmer rights to use the GMO seeds in exchange for complying with all of the company's production methods and management requirements. The contract may require the farmer to allow company representatives access to fields to inspect crops and determine if the farmer is in compliance with the contract.

The companies are generally seeking to secure a number of protections for themselves through the agreements. These agreements may include provisions designed to ensure that farmers follow specific guidelines directing where and how the GMO seed will be planted, to stop farmers from saving seed from the crop that is produced from the purchased seed, to protect the company's intellectual property rights, and to ensure that disputes arising under the contracts are resolved either through binding arbitration or in a court convenient to the company.

In addition to altering farmers' year-to-year production practices, contract provisions that protect the companies' intellectual property rights in the GMOs and prohibit farmers from saving seed to plant in the following year may also open farmers to liability for breach of contract. Monsanto, a chemical company based in St. Louis, Missouri, has recently brought complaints against farmers for allegedly saving seed in violation of either a technology agreement or Monsanto's intellectual property rights.

Um, no. That is a completely separate issue from what I am referring to.

Europe puts a lot of pressure and there is a lot of fear on African and other nations who export crops to Europe. If they introduce GMO foods, they may lose the European market.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: rchiu
I highly doubt the soring food price is caused by biofuel. The price of rice, corn and other agricultural commodities have risen 2/3 hundred percent in the past 2, 3 years, and I don't think biofuel can cause the demand of those commodities to increase that much.

The real problem is with the speculation in commodities. People like Jim Rogers betting on commodities and drive up the prices. Yeap they sure made lots of $$ but at the expense of millions of people who can no longer afford basic life necessities.

Yes, diverting crops to biofuel does drive the fod prices up.

However, you are correct that it is not the sole reason. E.g., last year wheat (IIRC) prices rose substanially because several countries (large crop producers/exporters) on different continents experienced bad crops reducing supply. It was a good year for US farmers who had pretty good crops and got good prices.

But higher food prices will result from diverting crops to biofuel.

Another problem is increased pollution. The nitrogen fertilizers that corn growers use is getting into the Mississipi river and flowing into the Gulf of Mexico. We now have a huge "dead zone" in the GoM killing all aquatic life. I'd expect that to negatively impact the fishing industry too.

We now also have scientists claiming that biofuels are worse for the environment than regular fossil fuels. Then too we have studies showing the energy required to grow the extra corn and convert to fuel etc is so high as to be a net energy loss.

I can't think of one good thing about biofuels, other than it being a windfall to our farmers - and we all know most of that is huge agri-business corporations anyway.

But Africa's food problem will noit be solved by decreasing biofuels alone. We need to have good growing year on a global basis to increase supply. AFRICA needs to get it's poop together too. I have a friend now working in Ethiopia; he claims the amount of waste there is staggering. What good is it to get cheap food supplies to Africa if it just goes to waste?

Fern

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Aren't we supposed to stop meddling in other countries? Sending them food and money merely serves to make them dependent. Clearly we should stop.

I think most countries welcome food/money. It's the invading and occupying they don't like.

 

[OutHouse]

umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.

 

[1prophet]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: yllus

- In 2008, 18% of U.S. grain production will go to biofuels.

I imagine that a lot of that is genetically modified and thus not suitable to export to third-world countries because of European fears of science.

More likely patent protection, you can be sued for for not following cotractual obligations like storing seed for the next crop.

Biotechnology companies and seed distributors that market GMO seeds to farmers usually require that farmers sign grower or technology agreements. These agreements generally give the farmer rights to use the GMO seeds in exchange for complying with all of the company's production methods and management requirements. The contract may require the farmer to allow company representatives access to fields to inspect crops and determine if the farmer is in compliance with the contract.

The companies are generally seeking to secure a number of protections for themselves through the agreements. These agreements may include provisions designed to ensure that farmers follow specific guidelines directing where and how the GMO seed will be planted, to stop farmers from saving seed from the crop that is produced from the purchased seed, to protect the company's intellectual property rights, and to ensure that disputes arising under the contracts are resolved either through binding arbitration or in a court convenient to the company.

In addition to altering farmers' year-to-year production practices, contract provisions that protect the companies' intellectual property rights in the GMOs and prohibit farmers from saving seed to plant in the following year may also open farmers to liability for breach of contract. Monsanto, a chemical company based in St. Louis, Missouri, has recently brought complaints against farmers for allegedly saving seed in violation of either a technology agreement or Monsanto's intellectual property rights.

Um, no. That is a completely separate issue from what I am referring to.

Europe puts a lot of pressure and there is a lot of fear on African and other nations who export crops to Europe. If they introduce GMO foods, they may lose the European market.

Maybe I misunderstood, what does that have to do with European fears of science, unless you mean they are afraid of genetically engineered crops?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: NeoV
anyone in the US pushing corn as a viable biofuel input should be fired from their job

switchgrass is very similar to sugarcane in terms of how convertable it is into biofuel

i was thinking 'execution' .. but your idea is probably more practical
:Q

[]

Best of all these grasses grow where most food crops cannot - so we are not taking land out of production nor will we waste much water nor fertilizer producing them - and best of all - it is not subject to the disadvantages of genetically modified crops - held hostage by Mega-Corporation's "terrorism"

Hemp is another excellent alternative to produce food, fuel, fiber, medicine and oil from the seeds ..
. . the "Tree for the Healing of the Nations" .. one of the Original Bio-Gifts to Mankind along with corn, wheat, rice and the other Major Crops.

sighhh... I get tired of pointing this out, but feel compelled to do it one more time. If we're going to make biofuel then we need to produce the stock and it doesn't just come out of thin air, it come out of the ground.

There is very little land not being used for production. Grass land is used for hay and pasture for cattle (meat and dairy) and sheep. If you want to eat meat then what are we going to do for livestock pasture/hay?

The same thing applies to growing sugarcane. We could increase our acres, but that would take other crops out of production (corn and cotton would be my guess).

Switchgrass research looks promising but switchgrass is a hard grass to get established and it would take land out of production currently being used to grow other crops such as wheat and corn. Once done it might produce more ethanol per acre. It also wouldn't need to be reseeded every year.

The problem I see with switchgrass is that it is not as versatile of a crop whereas corn can be used for human consumption, livestock feed, or exported out of the country. No part of the corn kernal goes to waste in the maaking of ethanol and the cornstalk goes back into the ground increasing the soil tilth.

What it boils down to is why should a farmer plant switchgrass unless he knows he has a profitable market for it? If the people in 3rd world countries are starving how is that the farmers fault anymore then yours? Maybe you should stop driving a tank, or quit jetting around the country, or even grow a garden in your backyard. Maybe all of the above?

Good post.

BTW, our corn yield last year increased MORE bushels than ethanol used PLUS we had a bigger corn surplus( ie corn not even being used).


Oh, and I was doing a bit of reading this morning about an enzyme they found in a cow's stomach that can be implanted into corn that will allow not only the corn ear(kernel) to be used for ethanol but also the stalk. Imagine that - just take a hay sickle to the crop, then row it like hay, then bale it. But then again, I'm sure they'll still use combines to do harvest as the ratio of kernel to stalk might not work well just baled, but it's very cool science.

 

[sandorski]

Every Nation should be given the option to Protect their Food Production from Global Competition, especially the Third World. That won't necessarily solve this problem, but it gives them a fighting chance.

 

[desy]

Found it finally

http://www.reuters.com/article.../idUSN1042557020071210

The study said greater impacts on food inflation than the price of corn have been these soaring non-farm costs, including record oil prices and soaring consumer demand from the world economy, notably the emerging middle class in Asia. The United States is the top world exporter of food, including wheat and corn.

"There's no one culprit ... that is causing an uptick in food price inflation this year," said Richman. "An uptick in the price of corn is not causing people to have to pay substantially more overall at retail."

Ethanol demand has boosted corn prices. But given the competitive nature of the retail industry, much of the higher price of corn is being absorbed into the margins of food processors and livestock producers, Richman said.

Of the projected record 2007 U.S. corn crop of 13 billion bushels, about 43 percent will fed to livestock to produce meat and dairy products and 24 percent will be turned into ethanol.

Two years ago, feed demand took 55 percent of the crop while ethanol consumed only 14 percent.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Aren't we supposed to stop meddling in other countries? Sending them food and money merely serves to make them dependent. Clearly we should stop.

I think most countries welcome food/money. It's the invading and occupying they don't like.

No doubt. We've really gone overboard invading/occupying African nations.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: 1prophet

Maybe I misunderstood, what does that have to do with European fears of science, unless you mean they are afraid of genetically engineered crops?

Yes. That contributes to food problems in the developing world.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Yup and wait until we have a failed crop season.

3.20 a gallon for gasoline will look cheap as hell while we cant eat.

"Mission Accomplished"

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: NeoV
anyone in the US pushing corn as a viable biofuel input should be fired from their job

The entire state of Iowa

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: NeoV
anyone in the US pushing corn as a viable biofuel input should be fired from their job

switchgrass is very similar to sugarcane in terms of how convertable it is into biofuel

i was thinking 'execution' .. but your idea is probably more practical
:Q

[]

Best of all these grasses grow where most food crops cannot - so we are not taking land out of production nor will we waste much water nor fertilizer producing them - and best of all - it is not subject to the disadvantages of genetically modified crops - held hostage by Mega-Corporation's "terrorism"

Hemp is another excellent alternative to produce food, fuel, fiber, medicine and oil from the seeds ..
. . the "Tree for the Healing of the Nations" .. one of the Original Bio-Gifts to Mankind along with corn, wheat, rice and the other Major Crops.

sighhh... I get tired of pointing this out, but feel compelled to do it one more time. If we're going to make biofuel then we need to produce the stock and it doesn't just come out of thin air, it come out of the ground.

There is very little land not being used for production. Grass land is used for hay and pasture for cattle (meat and dairy) and sheep. If you want to eat meat then what are we going to do for livestock pasture/hay?

The same thing applies to growing sugarcane. We could increase our acres, but that would take other crops out of production (corn and cotton would be my guess).

Switchgrass research looks promising but switchgrass is a hard grass to get established and it would take land out of production currently being used to grow other crops such as wheat and corn. Once done it might produce more ethanol per acre. It also wouldn't need to be reseeded every year.

The problem I see with switchgrass is that it is not as versatile of a crop whereas corn can be used for human consumption, livestock feed, or exported out of the country. No part of the corn kernal goes to waste in the maaking of ethanol and the cornstalk goes back into the ground increasing the soil tilth.

What it boils down to is why should a farmer plant switchgrass unless he knows he has a profitable market for it? If the people in 3rd world countries are starving how is that the farmers fault anymore then yours? Maybe you should stop driving a tank, or quit jetting around the country, or even grow a garden in your backyard. Maybe all of the above?

Good post.

BTW, our corn yield last year increased MORE bushels than ethanol used PLUS we had a bigger corn surplus( ie corn not even being used).


Oh, and I was doing a bit of reading this morning about an enzyme they found in a cow's stomach that can be implanted into corn that will allow not only the corn ear(kernel) to be used for ethanol but also the stalk. Imagine that - just take a hay sickle to the crop, then row it like hay, then bale it. But then again, I'm sure they'll still use combines to do harvest as the ratio of kernel to stalk might not work well just baled, but it's very cool science.

it would not make the slightest difference HOW they do it as long as they do not use food and land already used for food to switch over to producing ethanol .. right now there are people going hungry and all the "extra" corn can be used to feed them; there are also bad years. And a genetically modified crop is far more prone to a single disease wiping out the entire crop world-wide.

it is far more logical to bring new less nutrient & Water demanding crops and new lands that are far less suitable for growing corn and sugar cane and instead convert SWAMP and DESERT into new growing areas creating a whole NEW INDUSTRY! ... and of course, much of this new farming can be done in 3rd world countries where the land is badly mis-managed [as in Brasil and Africa]

and i drive the smallest and most economical car for myself and have a small "footprint" here and i plant lots of trees and compost all my normal household waste and am very careful about water usage ... eventually, i will be All-Solar and will have a small wind-farm as well as an orchard on my 2-1/2 acres .. so i am trying to do my part.

 

[Wreckem]

To date every thing used for ethonal has been from SURPLUS production. Even this year there is expected to be 600million bushels of surplus corn even after ethanol prodction has been factored in.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.

That is correct.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.

That is correct.

If this was correct then corn would not have set record prices this week like it did blaming the ethanol industry for the new record prices.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: NeoV
anyone in the US pushing corn as a viable biofuel input should be fired from their job

switchgrass is very similar to sugarcane in terms of how convertable it is into biofuel

i was thinking 'execution' .. but your idea is probably more practical
:Q

[]

Best of all these grasses grow where most food crops cannot - so we are not taking land out of production nor will we waste much water nor fertilizer producing them - and best of all - it is not subject to the disadvantages of genetically modified crops - held hostage by Mega-Corporation's "terrorism"

Hemp is another excellent alternative to produce food, fuel, fiber, medicine and oil from the seeds ..
. . the "Tree for the Healing of the Nations" .. one of the Original Bio-Gifts to Mankind along with corn, wheat, rice and the other Major Crops.

sighhh... I get tired of pointing this out, but feel compelled to do it one more time. If we're going to make biofuel then we need to produce the stock and it doesn't just come out of thin air, it come out of the ground.

There is very little land not being used for production. Grass land is used for hay and pasture for cattle (meat and dairy) and sheep. If you want to eat meat then what are we going to do for livestock pasture/hay?

The same thing applies to growing sugarcane. We could increase our acres, but that would take other crops out of production (corn and cotton would be my guess).

Switchgrass research looks promising but switchgrass is a hard grass to get established and it would take land out of production currently being used to grow other crops such as wheat and corn. Once done it might produce more ethanol per acre. It also wouldn't need to be reseeded every year.

The problem I see with switchgrass is that it is not as versatile of a crop whereas corn can be used for human consumption, livestock feed, or exported out of the country. No part of the corn kernal goes to waste in the maaking of ethanol and the cornstalk goes back into the ground increasing the soil tilth.

What it boils down to is why should a farmer plant switchgrass unless he knows he has a profitable market for it? If the people in 3rd world countries are starving how is that the farmers fault anymore then yours? Maybe you should stop driving a tank, or quit jetting around the country, or even grow a garden in your backyard. Maybe all of the above?

Good post.

BTW, our corn yield last year increased MORE bushels than ethanol used PLUS we had a bigger corn surplus( ie corn not even being used).


Oh, and I was doing a bit of reading this morning about an enzyme they found in a cow's stomach that can be implanted into corn that will allow not only the corn ear(kernel) to be used for ethanol but also the stalk. Imagine that - just take a hay sickle to the crop, then row it like hay, then bale it. But then again, I'm sure they'll still use combines to do harvest as the ratio of kernel to stalk might not work well just baled, but it's very cool science.

it would not make the slightest difference HOW they do it as long as they do not use food and land already used for food to switch over to producing ethanol .. right now there are people going hungry and all the "extra" corn can be used to feed them; there are also bad years. And a genetically modified crop is far more prone to a single disease wiping out the entire crop world-wide.

it is far more logical to bring new less nutrient & Water demanding crops and new lands that are far less suitable for growing corn and sugar cane and instead convert SWAMP and DESERT into new growing areas creating a whole NEW INDUSTRY! ... and of course, much of this new farming can be done in 3rd world countries where the land is badly mis-managed [as in Brasil and Africa]

and i drive the smallest and most economical car for myself and have a small "footprint" here and i plant lots of trees and compost all my normal household waste and am very careful about water usage ... eventually, i will be All-Solar and will have a small wind-farm as well as an orchard on my 2-1/2 acres .. so i am trying to do my part.

What is your definition of "small wind" farm?

Have you ever seen a wind farm? There is nothing small about them. Nor can there be if you want to actually produce enough electricity.

 

[Wreckem]

One thing I might add is, a lot of the ethanol produced in the US is made with sorguhm grain. Corn isnt the only thing they are using.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.

That is correct.

If this was correct then corn would not have set record prices this week like it did blaming the ethanol industry for the new record prices.

The biggest driver of commodity prices is speculation. Speculators are controling the market. The prices of wheat, corn, and most other ag commodities are horribly over priced based on the current market for them.

He is correct in saying, that most of the corn comes out as a byproduct that is made in to feed pellets.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: apoppin

it would not make the slightest difference HOW they do it as long as they do not use food and land already used for food to switch over to producing ethanol .. right now there are people going hungry and all the "extra" corn can be used to feed them; there are also bad years. And a genetically modified crop is far more prone to a single disease wiping out the entire crop world-wide.

it is far more logical to bring new less nutrient & Water demanding crops and new lands that are far less suitable for growing corn and sugar cane and instead convert SWAMP and DESERT into new growing areas creating a whole NEW INDUSTRY! ... and of course, much of this new farming can be done in 3rd world countries where the land is badly mis-managed [as in Brasil and Africa]

and i drive the smallest and most economical car for myself and have a small "footprint" here and i plant lots of trees and compost all my normal household waste and am very careful about water usage ... eventually, i will be All-Solar and will have a small wind-farm as well as an orchard on my 2-1/2 acres .. so i am trying to do my part.

Did you miss the part about the EXCESS corn we have year after year and that the increase in production was larger than the use for ethanol?

Anyway, I too love solar and wind but I'm in town so I'm stuck with mainly solar. I don't have alot yet but by next fall/winter my garage should be able to be heated by solar. I can't wait until I can build my own house - it'll be as hippie as it can be(if not off grid) and still be usable.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.

That is correct.

If this was correct then corn would not have set record prices this week like it did blaming the ethanol industry for the new record prices.

It is correct. You might want to educate yourself on something....oh hell... like that's going to happen...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.

That is correct.

If this was correct then corn would not have set record prices this week like it did blaming the ethanol industry for the new record prices.

The biggest driver of commodity prices is speculation. Speculators are controling the market. The prices of wheat, corn, and most other ag commodities are horribly over priced based on the current market for them.

He is correct in saying, that most of the corn comes out as a byproduct that is made in to feed pellets.

DDG= gold

 

[gorobei]

Screw corn and ethanol. Bio algae is the way to go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

saw a special on it on History channel (modern marvels i think.) Triple threat: basic vegetable oil extraction, secondary extraction of long chain hydrocarbons(similar to petroleum), and raw bulk bio matter for animal feed. Also achievable on way less acreage. Don't remember the name of the company developing this, but they are going ahead with scaling up production, so it is economically feasible.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: gorobei
Screw corn and ethanol. Bio algae is the way to go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

saw a special on it on History channel (modern marvels i think.) Triple threat: basic vegetable oil extraction, secondary extraction of long chain hydrocarbons(similar to petroleum), and raw bulk bio matter for animal feed. Also achievable on way less acreage. Don't remember the name of the company developing this, but they are going ahead with scaling up production, so it is economically feasible.

I support this as well. No single idea is "the solution" though.