Dear West, please stop using our food as your biofuel.

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Lothar

I'm by no means suggesting that we should grow sugarcanes in Iowa, but what is wrong with importing them?

Get rid of the tax and import them.

Corn based ethanol is not even energy neutral. You get less energy than you used to produce it.

I agree, I was just saying the sugar lobby is the reason we don't import cane sugar.

And you are incorrect - Corn based ethanol does not take more energy to make than it contains. We've been over this time and time again - it's an incorrect claim.

I find it totally amazing that people continue to make that claim.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.

That is correct.

If this was correct then corn would not have set record prices this week like it did blaming the ethanol industry for the new record prices.

Dave my statement is 100% correct. the price of corn is a bubble, there is no shortage and there will never will be. as other have said the speculators have driven the cost up just like they have for crude.

I didn't say there was a shortage of corn.

I agree, it is all BS.

The market is no longer defined by "Supply and Demand" fundamentals.

It is now strictly defined by what used to be people that the U.S. went after like Al Capone.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

Now *spin* it

it is MUCH WORSE in the REST of the world .. and yes people are starving as Americans get fatter Asses and Brains.

You mean take your *spin* off.

How much of your two and a half acres are you using to plant food for all those poor starving people?

all of it for my soon-to-be-POOR-in-face-of-Stupid-Government starving family and friends

and i have yet to see anything from you except ridicule and opinion .. you got the links you asked for and can't even spin well

I'm sorry apoppin, but you just don't know much about it.

and you clearly know nothing about it .. links please .. at least i can produce reliable ones on demand .. i have more than my dick in my hand
--i guess your professor is also a Right wing moron bottom feeder that infests the little redneck schools of thought

You think a google link proves much of anything? Most of them are just propaganda put out by the various sides. You have to learn to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

You never addressed my questions to you about where your going to find more land or how to make water go farther. I guess you didn't find anything on Google about that, huh??

BTW, I'm not the guy who asked for you for links, so calm down.... and quit playing with your dick.

i don't think YOU get it .. you got a few of my links .. and you respond with what is in your hands ..

i am asking for YOUR links .. something more than unsupported opinion and ridicule from an anonymous poster with no established credibility

 

[Moonbeam]

Humans can be bio-engineered to grow grass instead of hair. A few hours of sunlight and you'll be full. And wry rye is corn rows.

 

[apoppin]

Plants can also be engineered to grow human hair
-we can have a whole new industry

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

Now *spin* it

it is MUCH WORSE in the REST of the world .. and yes people are starving as Americans get fatter Asses and Brains.

You mean take your *spin* off.

How much of your two and a half acres are you using to plant food for all those poor starving people?

all of it for my soon-to-be-POOR-in-face-of-Stupid-Government starving family and friends

and i have yet to see anything from you except ridicule and opinion .. you got the links you asked for and can't even spin well

I'm sorry apoppin, but you just don't know much about it.

and you clearly know nothing about it .. links please .. at least i can produce reliable ones on demand .. i have more than my dick in my hand
--i guess your professor is also a Right wing moron bottom feeder that infests the little redneck schools of thought

You think a google link proves much of anything? Most of them are just propaganda put out by the various sides. You have to learn to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

You never addressed my questions to you about where your going to find more land or how to make water go farther. I guess you didn't find anything on Google about that, huh??

BTW, I'm not the guy who asked for you for links, so calm down.... and quit playing with your dick.

i don't think YOU get it .. you got a few of my links .. and you respond with what is in your hands ..

i am asking for YOUR links .. something more than unsupported opinion and ridicule from an anonymous poster with no established credibility

Pot, kettle , black.

I'm a farmer and I just don't have the time or the desire to debunk your links just because you posted something. I could post all kinds of links and then act like an asshole and claim you have to debunk them or your an idiot..... that seems pretty idiotic to me but maybe it's something you would understand?

The simple fact is corn is as high as it is because it has that much demand. Despite the high prices exports of corn are easily on pace to meet USDA's projections and corn has to compete for it's acres just like wheat, soybeans, etc. Funny you aren't complaining about those prices. How about the high price of gold, is that due to ethanol too?

The falling dollar and the high cost of energy is the problem. Specualtors are also part of the problem but those same speculators kept proices depressed for literally decades and all I heard was complaints about the subdies the goverment was paying to keep farmers in business. I guess it's just a matter of whose bull is beoing gored.

Is corn high? Yes it is but farmers inputs are going through the roof at the same time, but all you see is ethanol is making it cost you more to buy food so you jump on the moral judgement bandwagon about using food to make ethanol. You might have a point except I beleive that these 3rd world countries are capable of producing most of their own food. It only takes land and water, right? Speaking fo which:


Where are we going to get this extra land you speak off?

How are we going to make water produce more?



Those two questions are things I think about a lot and I'd be interested in hearing your ideas instead of arguing over some BS google links.

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I already said it once befor here at this forum . So I well say it again . Give a man with out of fuel car . A choice of paying $5.00 a gallon or no fuel. He'll pay $10. Befor he starts crying war.

Give a man thats starving a choice of paying $100. a bushel for corn hell pay $1,000,000, the big diferance between the 2 is when they start yelling war! Food wars are coming,

This is the second post of yours in as many days whose verbiage completely baffles me.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

i don't think YOU get it .. you got a few of my links .. and you respond with what is in your hands ..

i am asking for YOUR links .. something more than unsupported opinion and ridicule from an anonymous poster with no established credibility

...

I'm a farmer and I just don't have the time or the desire to debunk your links just because you posted something. ...

Neither do i have any desire or time to waste with you just because you posted something that had zero but what is in your own hands to back it up.

Thank you for your unsubstantiated and - in my own opinion - completely uninformed opinion. i am entitled to posting my own opinion just as you are and the others that post here can decide who can back up what he says with links and logic instead of bullsh!t, which we farmers are well acquainted with.

 

[Nemesis 1]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24065922 Food prices are going to go UP UP UP


war follows.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

i don't think YOU get it .. you got a few of my links .. and you respond with what is in your hands ..

i am asking for YOUR links .. something more than unsupported opinion and ridicule from an anonymous poster with no established credibility

...

I'm a farmer and I just don't have the time or the desire to debunk your links just because you posted something. ...

Neither do i have any desire or time to waste with you just because you posted something that had zero but what is in your own hands to back it up.

Thank you for your unsubstantiated and - in my own opinion - completely uninformed opinion. i am entitled to posting my own opinion just as you are and the others that post here can decide who can back up what he says with links and logic instead of bullsh!t, which we farmers are well acquainted with.

I think you've been playing too many video games. You haven't proven squat except that your opinion is different then mine.

It's clear to anybody with even half a brain that the underlying force for the rising cost of everything these days is the high cost of energy, oil in particular. I attempted to allude to that when I asked you why the price of gold is so high. Instead you choose to ignore addressing that and continue trolling. Since you put so much stock in "links" I dug up one from Texas A&M University Agricultural & Food Policy Center just for you:

The effects of Ethanol on Texas Food and Feed

You remind me of the Black Knight in Monty Python's "Holy Grail" when he says, "It's only a flesh wound". :laugh:

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

The effects of Ethanol on Texas Food and Feed

Nice. Good fresh data.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
-snip-
I don't know, but I've heard it rumored several times that the production of solar panels produces some very toxic by-products. Anybody else heard anything about that?

Depends on the particular method of "purifying" the silica to get silicon.

Most silica is in the form of SiO2, meaning you may create and release a lot CO2 in the process too.

Fern

 

[Fern]

NEW DELHI - India and African nations are calling on the Western world to rethink the diversion of huge amounts of food for biofuel, which has created shortages and driven up prices in poorer countries.

-snip-

You know, it just occured to me that for the longest time Africa and various 3rd world countries have screaming the Western nations agricultural policies, how our "dumping" of our surplus crops on them damages their farmers and agri-business.

Now they're bitching that we ain't dumping enough?

They need to get their story straight.

Fern

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
So in order to save the world from global warming we are going to starve people to death??

Brilliant.

maddogchen provided info above that says biofuels like this actually harm the environment.

That is offset by dead indians and chinese.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

The effects of Ethanol on Texas Food and Feed

Nice. Good fresh data.

Only the best for my friends at ATP&N

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

i don't think YOU get it .. you got a few of my links .. and you respond with what is in your hands ..

i am asking for YOUR links .. something more than unsupported opinion and ridicule from an anonymous poster with no established credibility

...

I'm a farmer and I just don't have the time or the desire to debunk your links just because you posted something. ...

Neither do i have any desire or time to waste with you just because you posted something that had zero but what is in your own hands to back it up.

Thank you for your unsubstantiated and - in my own opinion - completely uninformed opinion. i am entitled to posting my own opinion just as you are and the others that post here can decide who can back up what he says with links and logic instead of bullsh!t, which we farmers are well acquainted with.

I think you've been playing too many video games. You haven't proven squat except that your opinion is different then mine.

It's clear to anybody with even half a brain that the underlying force for the rising cost of everything these days is the high cost of energy, oil in particular. I attempted to allude to that when I asked you why the price of gold is so high. Instead you choose to ignore addressing that and continue trolling. Since you put so much stock in "links" I dug up one from Texas A&M University Agricultural & Food Policy Center just for you:

The effects of Ethanol on Texas Food and Feed

You remind me of the Black Knight in Monty Python's "Holy Grail" when he says, "It's only a flesh wound". :laugh:

i am glad i remind you of something clever and funny .. i liked it too

and thank-you for *finally* giving me a link after asking you over-and-over .. now there may be something to talk about other than silly "opinion" .. silly opinions never wound anything other than imagination of the one making his silly unsubstantiated opinion and i simply refuse to take trolls seriously

now it is a pretty Big PDF that takes me about 5 minutes to D/L on 56k and i suspect it will take me more than 5 minutes to read it and perhaps even more than 5 minutes to respond to it

unless you want me to BS - like you have been doing - up till now

However, what i DON'T understand is this because i never disagreed with this point at all

the underlying force for the rising cost of everything these days is the high cost of energy, oil in particular

yes .. OK .. sure, the OBVIOUS .. but we are discussing using our food as ... biofuel .. that is what *i* am discussing .. not disputing that energy costs are driving prices up - not at all.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
-snip-
I don't know, but I've heard it rumored several times that the production of solar panels produces some very toxic by-products. Anybody else heard anything about that?

Depends on the particular method of "purifying" the silica to get silicon.

Most silica is in the form of SiO2, meaning you may create and release a lot CO2 in the process too.

Fern

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...8/AR2008030802595.html

Last year, the Luoyang Zhonggui factory was estimated to have produced less than 300 tons of polysilicon, but it aims to increase that tenfold this year -- making it China's largest operating plant. It is a key supplier to Suntech Power Holdings, a solar panel company whose founder Shi Zhengrong recently topped the list of the richest people in China.

Made from the Earth's most abundant substance -- sand -- polysilicon is tricky to manufacture. It requires huge amounts of energy, and even a small misstep in the production can introduce impurities and ruin an entire batch. The other main challenge is dealing with the waste. For each ton of polysilicon produced, the process generates at least four tons of silicon tetrachloride liquid waste.

When exposed to humid air, silicon tetrachloride transforms into acids and poisonous hydrogen chloride gas, which can make people who breathe the air dizzy and can make their chests contract.
.
.
.

Shi estimates that Chinese companies are saving millions of dollars by not installing pollution recovery.

He said that if environmental protection technology is used, the cost to produce one ton is approximately $84,500. But Chinese companies are making it at $21,000 to $56,000a ton.

http://www.treehugger.com/file...ar_pollution_china.php

How this report will impact China?s booming export-geared solar industry remains to be seen. (Domestically, China is pursuing cheaper alternative energy solutions, including solar water heaters, methane capture and wind.) Up to 88 percent of Suntech?s revenues come from sales to Germany and Spain alone (the U.S. makes up seven percent), due largely to the enormous subsidies for solar in Europe. As Bill Bishop at the excellent China blog Billdue reminds us, Chinese polysilicon and photovoltaic panel manufacturers are banking on US subsidies in the next iteration of a US energy bill. Suntech has offices in California and is looking to expand; its panels, 3000 of them, line the roof of the San Francisco International Airport.

Like John's recent post on coal usage by Suntech, and yesterday?s New York Times story about biodiesel, this report is at the least a much-needed reality check. It's a reminder that, however healthy it may be for us, our clean energy -- and our dependence on China for cheap manufacturing -- is sickening China.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

apoppin - likely one reason links weren't provided before is that we seem to have this discussion every month or two yet people still trot out the same old anti-ethanol bs.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
apoppin - likely one reason links weren't provided before is that we seem to have this discussion every month or two yet people still trot out the same old anti-ethanol bs.

i have not been here for years .. and i do not trot out the same old BD .. MY BS is quite original, i assure you and i have thought it out. i am very PRO-ethanol .. but anti using Food Crops for it.


What i DON'T understand is this because i never disagreed with this point at all

the underlying force for the rising cost of everything these days is the high cost of energy, oil in particular

yes .. OK .. sure, the OBVIOUS .. but we are discussing using our food as ... biofuel .. that is what *i* am discussing .. not disputing that energy costs is the primary force driving prices up - not at all.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: apoppin

i don't think YOU get it .. you got a few of my links .. and you respond with what is in your hands ..

i am asking for YOUR links .. something more than unsupported opinion and ridicule from an anonymous poster with no established credibility

...

I'm a farmer and I just don't have the time or the desire to debunk your links just because you posted something. ...

Neither do i have any desire or time to waste with you just because you posted something that had zero but what is in your own hands to back it up.

Thank you for your unsubstantiated and - in my own opinion - completely uninformed opinion. i am entitled to posting my own opinion just as you are and the others that post here can decide who can back up what he says with links and logic instead of bullsh!t, which we farmers are well acquainted with.

I think you've been playing too many video games. You haven't proven squat except that your opinion is different then mine.

It's clear to anybody with even half a brain that the underlying force for the rising cost of everything these days is the high cost of energy, oil in particular. I attempted to allude to that when I asked you why the price of gold is so high. Instead you choose to ignore addressing that and continue trolling. Since you put so much stock in "links" I dug up one from Texas A&M University Agricultural & Food Policy Center just for you:

The effects of Ethanol on Texas Food and Feed

You remind me of the Black Knight in Monty Python's "Holy Grail" when he says, "It's only a flesh wound". :laugh:

i am glad i remind you of something clever and funny .. i liked it too

and thank-you for *finally* giving me a link after asking you over-and-over .. now there may be something to talk about other than silly "opinion" .. silly opinions never wound anything other than imagination of the one making his silly unsubstantiated opinion and i simply refuse to take trolls seriously

now it is a pretty Big PDF that takes me about 5 minutes to D/L on 56k and i suspect it will take me more than 5 minutes to read it and perhaps even more than 5 minutes to respond to it

unless you want me to BS - like you have been doing - up till now

You don't get it, I'm a farmer. I do this for a living.... every day, day in and day out and I've forgotten more about it then you will ever know. That story backs up everything I have been trying to tell you and it just made the news today. Imagine that, it took a whole team of people at Texas A&M to figure out what I knew all along. They could have saved a lot of money by just asking me..

Perhaps my "BS opinion' wasn't so ignorant as you have been trying to imply?

 

[apoppin]

You don't get it, I'm a farmer. I do this for a living.... every day, day in and day out and I've forgotten more about it then you will ever know. That story backs up everything I have been trying to tell you and it just made the news today. Imgine that, it took a whole tean of people at Texas A&M to figure out what I knew all along. They could have saved a lot of money by just sking me..

Perhaps my "BS opinion' wasn't so ignorant as you were trying to imply?

How big? and organic or not? and are you using genetically modified crops? rotate single crops or diverse inter-planting? use chemical fertilizers and pesticides or bio agents and recycling and soil-building? For how many years? Is your dad a farmer; grandfather? Family business; or worker on big agri-business? Livestock; poultry; orchards; aqua-culture; hydroponics?

There are many farmers and i prefer "diamond farming" best
-i don't think you know anything about me or my background - i was raised on a small family-owned farm in the suburbs i guess following a family tradition dating back for centuries to Europe. i would also be mostly into long term soil-building and mostly organics although i also like hydroponics and i understand Mendelson. it is my hobby although i have also raised and bred goats and poultry on a small scale, it is very demanding timewise and i expect to fully return to it when i semi-retire.
i also suspect that we may just disagree on the 'basics' as i would not willing eat what big business chemical farming produces for general consumption.

.. show expertise .. don't be general, please and i will take you far more seriously

and as you know some even successful farmers are pretty damn ignorant - they may simply be good business men who know how to take advantage of fat subsidies and may be killing our soil for future generations

 

[orangat]

Originally posted by: Fern
....
....
You know, it just occured to me that for the longest time Africa and various 3rd world countries have screaming the Western nations agricultural policies, how our "dumping" of our surplus crops on them damages their farmers and agri-business.

Now they're bitching that we ain't dumping enough?

They need to get their story straight.
Fern

Western countries are still dumping agricultural products. Some leaders are calling on the west to cease biofuel use in a mistaken belief that it is causing the price increase of corn.

The whole idea of corn ethanol makes me queasy. Industrial scale monocultures will only mostly benefit the agro-petrochemi-industrial complex.

 

[desy]

Fact is corn ethanol is net energy positive EROI
Fact using corn does put upward pressure on all pulses grains and oilseeds
Fact is world stocks of pulses grains and oilseeds have gone down to to drought and demand from China and India

All forms of fuel from plants has potential and drawbacks, but regular fossil fuels are going to deplete and something will eventually have to replace it. So IMO any of these roads pursued and even failed will be necessary INCLUDING above all increased effeciency

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
-snip-
I don't know, but I've heard it rumored several times that the production of solar panels produces some very toxic by-products. Anybody else heard anything about that?

Depends on the particular method of "purifying" the silica to get silicon.

Most silica is in the form of SiO2, meaning you may create and release a lot CO2 in the process too.

Fern

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...8/AR2008030802595.html

Last year, the Luoyang Zhonggui factory was estimated to have produced less than 300 tons of polysilicon, but it aims to increase that tenfold this year -- making it China's largest operating plant. It is a key supplier to Suntech Power Holdings, a solar panel company whose founder Shi Zhengrong recently topped the list of the richest people in China.

Made from the Earth's most abundant substance -- sand -- polysilicon is tricky to manufacture. It requires huge amounts of energy, and even a small misstep in the production can introduce impurities and ruin an entire batch. The other main challenge is dealing with the waste. For each ton of polysilicon produced, the process generates at least four tons of silicon tetrachloride liquid waste.

When exposed to humid air, silicon tetrachloride transforms into acids and poisonous hydrogen chloride gas, which can make people who breathe the air dizzy and can make their chests contract.
.
.
.

Shi estimates that Chinese companies are saving millions of dollars by not installing pollution recovery.

He said that if environmental protection technology is used, the cost to produce one ton is approximately $84,500. But Chinese companies are making it at $21,000 to $56,000a ton.

[/quote]

My Gawd, that's ridiculously inexpensive if that's polysilicon suitable for solar panels.

Does anybody here speak Chinese? Jeebus, if we can get them to sell us some we'll make freakin killing.

Otherwise, the process they are using is particulary nasty is terms of toxic waste. A couple of years ago I was working with a company and we were investigating a new process. Essentially it used a kiln to reach extremely high temperatures to make highly purified polysilicon. The downside was the process used carbon and it bonded with the oxygen molecules thus producing CO2. Somewhat counter-productive.

Fern

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
-snip-
I don't know, but I've heard it rumored several times that the production of solar panels produces some very toxic by-products. Anybody else heard anything about that?

Depends on the particular method of "purifying" the silica to get silicon.

Most silica is in the form of SiO2, meaning you may create and release a lot CO2 in the process too.

Fern

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...8/AR2008030802595.html

Last year, the Luoyang Zhonggui factory was estimated to have produced less than 300 tons of polysilicon, but it aims to increase that tenfold this year -- making it China's largest operating plant. It is a key supplier to Suntech Power Holdings, a solar panel company whose founder Shi Zhengrong recently topped the list of the richest people in China.

Made from the Earth's most abundant substance -- sand -- polysilicon is tricky to manufacture. It requires huge amounts of energy, and even a small misstep in the production can introduce impurities and ruin an entire batch. The other main challenge is dealing with the waste. For each ton of polysilicon produced, the process generates at least four tons of silicon tetrachloride liquid waste.

When exposed to humid air, silicon tetrachloride transforms into acids and poisonous hydrogen chloride gas, which can make people who breathe the air dizzy and can make their chests contract.
.
.
.

Shi estimates that Chinese companies are saving millions of dollars by not installing pollution recovery.

He said that if environmental protection technology is used, the cost to produce one ton is approximately $84,500. But Chinese companies are making it at $21,000 to $56,000a ton.

My Gawd, that's ridiculously inexpensive if that's polysilicon suitable for solar panels.

Does anybody here speak Chinese? Jeebus, if we can get them to sell us some we'll make freakin killing.

Otherwise, the process they are using is particulary nasty is terms of toxic waste. A couple of years ago I was working with a company and we were investigating a new process. Essentially it used a kiln to reach extremely high temperatures to make highly purified polysilicon. The downside was the process used carbon and it bonded with the oxygen molecules thus producing CO2. Somewhat counter-productive.

Fern

[/quote]



China finally seems to understand the pollution problems and long term issues. As a small example, the air pollution in their major cities is so bad you cannot see the tops of even their not-so-tall buildings from the street.

China has asked for assistance from Western Companies for long term Strategy and Risk management and planning to reduce their overall pollution. They are looking at their Olympics to be not so sterling otherwise. They also know their existence is at stake - finally! So there is a little progress.

And it is Well known, than many Mega Corporations based in the US would MUCH RATHER TRANSPORT & DUMP their toxic waste in 3rd world countries and harm the planet forever rather then be FORCED to process it in the US and render it harmless or recycle it.