Originally posted by: Kadarin
Dear West, please stop using our food as your biofuel.
"Our food"? Who actually owns it?
Originally posted by: eskimospy
.......
Side notes: Yeah, Haiti's famine was mostly from distribution problems. A large amount of famines are not caused by a lack of food, but the inability to get it to the people who need it.
We use corn instead of sugar because we can grow a lot more corn in the US then we can sugar cane. Also see: corn farmer's lobby.
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: apoppin
i was thinking 'execution' .. but your idea is probably more practicalOriginally posted by: NeoV
anyone in the US pushing corn as a viable biofuel input should be fired from their job
switchgrass is very similar to sugarcane in terms of how convertable it is into biofuel
:Q
[]
Best of all these grasses grow where most food crops cannot - so we are not taking land out of production nor will we waste much water nor fertilizer producing them - and best of all - it is not subject to the disadvantages of genetically modified crops - held hostage by Mega-Corporation's "terrorism"
Hemp is another excellent alternative to produce food, fuel, fiber, medicine and oil from the seeds ..
. . the "Tree for the Healing of the Nations" .. one of the Original Bio-Gifts to Mankind along with corn, wheat, rice and the other Major Crops.
sighhh... I get tired of pointing this out, but feel compelled to do it one more time. If we're going to make biofuel then we need to produce the stock and it doesn't just come out of thin air, it come out of the ground.
There is very little land not being used for production. Grass land is used for hay and pasture for cattle (meat and dairy) and sheep. If you want to eat meat then what are we going to do for livestock pasture/hay?
The same thing applies to growing sugarcane. We could increase our acres, but that would take other crops out of production (corn and cotton would be my guess).
Switchgrass research looks promising but switchgrass is a hard grass to get established and it would take land out of production currently being used to grow other crops such as wheat and corn. Once done it might produce more ethanol per acre. It also wouldn't need to be reseeded every year.
The problem I see with switchgrass is that it is not as versatile of a crop whereas corn can be used for human consumption, livestock feed, or exported out of the country. No part of the corn kernal goes to waste in the maaking of ethanol and the cornstalk goes back into the ground increasing the soil tilth.
What it boils down to is why should a farmer plant switchgrass unless he knows he has a profitable market for it? If the people in 3rd world countries are starving how is that the farmers fault anymore then yours? Maybe you should stop driving a tank, or quit jetting around the country, or even grow a garden in your backyard. Maybe all of the above?
Good post.
BTW, our corn yield last year increased MORE bushels than ethanol used PLUS we had a bigger corn surplus( ie corn not even being used).
Oh, and I was doing a bit of reading this morning about an enzyme they found in a cow's stomach that can be implanted into corn that will allow not only the corn ear(kernel) to be used for ethanol but also the stalk. Imagine that - just take a hay sickle to the crop, then row it like hay, then bale it. But then again, I'm sure they'll still use combines to do harvest as the ratio of kernel to stalk might not work well just baled, but it's very cool science.
it would not make the slightest difference HOW they do it as long as they do not use food and land already used for food to switch over to producing ethanol .. right now there are people going hungry and all the "extra" corn can be used to feed them; there are also bad years. And a genetically modified crop is far more prone to a single disease wiping out the entire crop world-wide.
it is far more logical to bring new less nutrient & Water demanding crops and new lands that are far less suitable for growing corn and sugar cane and instead convert SWAMP and DESERT into new growing areas creating a whole NEW INDUSTRY! ... and of course, much of this new farming can be done in 3rd world countries where the land is badly mis-managed [as in Brasil and Africa]
and i drive the smallest and most economical car for myself and have a small "footprint" here and i plant lots of trees and compost all my normal household waste and am very careful about water usage ... eventually, i will be All-Solar and will have a small wind-farm as well as an orchard on my 2-1/2 acres .. so i am trying to do my part.
What is your definition of "small wind" farm?
Have you ever seen a wind farm? There is nothing small about them. Nor can there be if you want to actually produce enough electricity.
they are hereFood wars are coming
Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.
Bingo ! Not to mention the huge amount of corn used to make pet food. On top of all this we still have way to much corn then we know what to do with in this country hence the massive subsidies to corporate farms not to grow certain crops or to buy up surpass crops and sell these products to third world countries. If anything the recent price of oil and other issues related to the market have driven up the price of corn and other cash crops.
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.
Bingo ! Not to mention the huge amount of corn used to make pet food. On top of all this we still have way to much corn then we know what to do with in this country hence the massive subsidies to corporate farms not to grow certain crops or to buy up surpass crops and sell these products to third world countries. If anything the recent price of oil and other issues related to the market have driven up the price of corn and other cash crops.
you are talking BS politics of this Stupid administration - there is no surplus - everything is artificially maintained at the taxpayers expense to support the mega-agro businesses
and yet people are starving - FACT - corn prices, along with wheat, rice and corn - our staple grains have Doubled in price for 3rd world countries in a year
what is wrong with your superficial assessment beginning with "bingo" ?
-did your professor graduate at the bottom of his class?
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.
Bingo ! Not to mention the huge amount of corn used to make pet food. On top of all this we still have way to much corn then we know what to do with in this country hence the massive subsidies to corporate farms not to grow certain crops or to buy up surpass crops and sell these products to third world countries. If anything the recent price of oil and other issues related to the market have driven up the price of corn and other cash crops.
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.
Bingo ! Not to mention the huge amount of corn used to make pet food. On top of all this we still have way to much corn then we know what to do with in this country hence the massive subsidies to corporate farms not to grow certain crops or to buy up surpass crops and sell these products to third world countries. If anything the recent price of oil and other issues related to the market have driven up the price of corn and other cash crops.
you are talking BS politics of this Stupid administration - there is no surplus - everything is artificially maintained at the taxpayers expense to support the mega-agro businesses
and yet people are starving - FACT - corn prices, along with wheat, rice and corn - our staple grains have Doubled in price for 3rd world countries in a year
what is wrong with your superficial assessment beginning with "bingo" ?
-did your professor graduate at the bottom of his class?
So are you asserting that we have a shortage of vital cash corps and are not producing the amount needed to support 3rd world countries gratis because of ethanol? I'd love to see the "factual data" here which you oh so wonderfully have forgotten to post.
Ethanol Demand Has Unexpected Impact on Farmers and the Global Food Supply
By DEAN REYNOLDS
April 9, 2007
Near Lake Geneva, Wis., farmer David Adams plans to seed his fields. But this year he'll be sticking with one commodity -- corn.
In about two weeks, he'll be fanning out over several hundred rolling acres, responding as he and other farmers do every year to the law of supply and demand. And this year the demand is for corn, corn and more corn.
"The price of corn looks like it will be better than wheat or beans," Adams says, while understating the case a bit.
Corn has about doubled in price during the last few months, thanks to an increasing demand for ethanol -- the mostly corn-based alternative fuel that burns cleaner than oil and, ideally, could one day reduce American dependence on oil imports.
And with ethanol production taking an increasing percentage of the corn crop, farmers are hard-pressed to meet the traditional demand for corn as a food stuff for human or animal consumption, even though the Agriculture Department predicts 15 percent more corn will be grown this year than last.
Adams will plow under his wheat and alfalfa fields to plant corn instead.
Good for Corn Farmers, Bad for the Cows
With Detroit now talking up the merits of "flex-fuel" cars that could run on ethanol, distilleries that make the stuff are sprouting across the Midwest like so many corn stalks. All of which is great -- if you grow corn.
But if, say, you're David Kyle, a dairy farmer a few miles up the road in Elkhorn, Wis., the higher corn prices are no cause for celebration.
"I'm sure that they didn't think down the line how the livestock producers would be affected," he says in an interview outside his barn.
Kyle has about 100 head of Holstein milking cows. They are animals that just love to eat corn feed, and Kyle says corn protein helps produce better milk. But the higher corn prices Adams enjoys mean that Kyle has to pay almost double this year for the corn feed he gives his cows.
Kyle says he may well have to reduce his herd, which means "there'll be less milk produced because of the price of corn. That's the bottom line."
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: apoppin
i was thinking 'execution' .. but your idea is probably more practicalOriginally posted by: NeoV
anyone in the US pushing corn as a viable biofuel input should be fired from their job
switchgrass is very similar to sugarcane in terms of how convertable it is into biofuel
:Q
[]
Best of all these grasses grow where most food crops cannot - so we are not taking land out of production nor will we waste much water nor fertilizer producing them - and best of all - it is not subject to the disadvantages of genetically modified crops - held hostage by Mega-Corporation's "terrorism"
Hemp is another excellent alternative to produce food, fuel, fiber, medicine and oil from the seeds ..
. . the "Tree for the Healing of the Nations" .. one of the Original Bio-Gifts to Mankind along with corn, wheat, rice and the other Major Crops.
sighhh... I get tired of pointing this out, but feel compelled to do it one more time. If we're going to make biofuel then we need to produce the stock and it doesn't just come out of thin air, it come out of the ground.
There is very little land not being used for production. Grass land is used for hay and pasture for cattle (meat and dairy) and sheep. If you want to eat meat then what are we going to do for livestock pasture/hay?
The same thing applies to growing sugarcane. We could increase our acres, but that would take other crops out of production (corn and cotton would be my guess).
Switchgrass research looks promising but switchgrass is a hard grass to get established and it would take land out of production currently being used to grow other crops such as wheat and corn. Once done it might produce more ethanol per acre. It also wouldn't need to be reseeded every year.
The problem I see with switchgrass is that it is not as versatile of a crop whereas corn can be used for human consumption, livestock feed, or exported out of the country. No part of the corn kernal goes to waste in the maaking of ethanol and the cornstalk goes back into the ground increasing the soil tilth.
What it boils down to is why should a farmer plant switchgrass unless he knows he has a profitable market for it? If the people in 3rd world countries are starving how is that the farmers fault anymore then yours? Maybe you should stop driving a tank, or quit jetting around the country, or even grow a garden in your backyard. Maybe all of the above?
Good post.
BTW, our corn yield last year increased MORE bushels than ethanol used PLUS we had a bigger corn surplus( ie corn not even being used).
Oh, and I was doing a bit of reading this morning about an enzyme they found in a cow's stomach that can be implanted into corn that will allow not only the corn ear(kernel) to be used for ethanol but also the stalk. Imagine that - just take a hay sickle to the crop, then row it like hay, then bale it. But then again, I'm sure they'll still use combines to do harvest as the ratio of kernel to stalk might not work well just baled, but it's very cool science.
it would not make the slightest difference HOW they do it as long as they do not use food and land already used for food to switch over to producing ethanol .. right now there are people going hungry and all the "extra" corn can be used to feed them; there are also bad years. And a genetically modified crop is far more prone to a single disease wiping out the entire crop world-wide.
it is far more logical to bring new less nutrient & Water demanding crops and new lands that are far less suitable for growing corn and sugar cane and instead convert SWAMP and DESERT into new growing areas creating a whole NEW INDUSTRY! ... and of course, much of this new farming can be done in 3rd world countries where the land is badly mis-managed [as in Brasil and Africa]
and i drive the smallest and most economical car for myself and have a small "footprint" here and i plant lots of trees and compost all my normal household waste and am very careful about water usage ... eventually, i will be All-Solar and will have a small wind-farm as well as an orchard on my 2-1/2 acres .. so i am trying to do my part.
Originally posted by: apoppin
Now *spin* it
it is MUCH WORSE in the REST of the world .. and yes people are starving as Americans get fatter Asses and Brains.
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Corn is easier to grow than sugarcane and can be grown in a much larger area than cane can. Cane is limited by climate to a geographic line from from about Savana to Houston.
It also requires a large amount of moisture compared to corn.
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: apoppin
Now *spin* it
it is MUCH WORSE in the REST of the world .. and yes people are starving as Americans get fatter Asses and Brains.
You mean take your *spin* off.
How much of your two and a half acres are you using to plant food for all those poor starving people?
and you clearly know nothing about it .. links please .. at least i can produce reliable ones on demand .. i have more than my dick in my handI'm sorry apoppin, but you just don't know much about it.
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Wreckem
Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.
That is correct.
If this was correct then corn would not have set record prices this week like it did blaming the ethanol industry for the new record prices.
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: Citrix
umm one problem with the argument. MOST of the corn grown in the US is used for livestock feed. when that corn is sent to a biofuel plant the all they do is remove the enzyme from the corn. 99,99% of the corn that goes in, comes out on the other side and can STILL be used as livestock feed.
Bingo ! Not to mention the huge amount of corn used to make pet food. On top of all this we still have way to much corn then we know what to do with in this country hence the massive subsidies to corporate farms not to grow certain crops or to buy up surpass crops and sell these products to third world countries. If anything the recent price of oil and other issues related to the market have driven up the price of corn and other cash crops.
you are talking BS politics of this Stupid administration - there is no surplus - everything is artificially maintained at the taxpayers expense to support the mega-agro businesses
and yet people are starving - FACT - corn prices, along with wheat, rice and corn - our staple grains have Doubled in price for 3rd world countries in a year
what is wrong with your superficial assessment beginning with "bingo" ?
-did your professor graduate at the bottom of his class?
Originally posted by: apoppin
they are right and it is a stupid move
use NON-food crops that grow on land not currently used for food
-create a NEW industry - not divert resources away from feeding people
-Using food crops is STUPID - something the Bush Administration *specializes* in - extreme brain-dead stupidity
WE will all be paying higher prices for food, ethanol and the poor people will starve if our genetically-modified sh!t fails - just one major crop fails worldwide and we have another self-created stupid *disaster* that will kill hundreds of millions of people
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Foxery
Originally posted by: maddogchen
isn't sugar cane a more efficient crop to convert to ethanol which is why its used the majority in Brazil? Why don't we use that then instead of corn?
Politics and money, what else... Extracting fuel from corn has been proven to be a fairly poor idea, but we'll keep doing it until someone in power trades in their bribes for real logic.
or,
Let them eat cake!
Corn is easier to grow than sugarcane and can be grown in a much larger area than cane can. Cane is limited by climate to a geographic line from from about Savana to Houston.
It also requires a large amount of moisture compared to corn.
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Foxery
Originally posted by: maddogchen
isn't sugar cane a more efficient crop to convert to ethanol which is why its used the majority in Brazil? Why don't we use that then instead of corn?
Politics and money, what else... Extracting fuel from corn has been proven to be a fairly poor idea, but we'll keep doing it until someone in power trades in their bribes for real logic.
or,
Let them eat cake!
Corn is easier to grow than sugarcane and can be grown in a much larger area than cane can. Cane is limited by climate to a geographic line from from about Savana to Houston.
It also requires a large amount of moisture compared to corn.
So why not import it?
What purpose does the tax on imported sugarcane serve?
Fact: Corn based ethanol requires more energy than sugarcane based ethanol to produce.
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Lothar
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Foxery
Originally posted by: maddogchen
isn't sugar cane a more efficient crop to convert to ethanol which is why its used the majority in Brazil? Why don't we use that then instead of corn?
Politics and money, what else... Extracting fuel from corn has been proven to be a fairly poor idea, but we'll keep doing it until someone in power trades in their bribes for real logic.
or,
Let them eat cake!
Corn is easier to grow than sugarcane and can be grown in a much larger area than cane can. Cane is limited by climate to a geographic line from from about Savana to Houston.
It also requires a large amount of moisture compared to corn.
So why not import it?
What purpose does the tax on imported sugarcane serve?
Fact: Corn based ethanol requires more energy than sugarcane based ethanol to produce.
Sugar lobby.
Yes, cane ethanol is better but we don't have near enough land available that will produce the quality and quantity needed like Brazil does.
Originally posted by: Lothar
I'm by no means suggesting that we should grow sugarcanes in Iowa, but what is wrong with importing them?
Get rid of the tax and import them.
Corn based ethanol is not even energy neutral. You get less energy than you used to produce it.
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: apoppin
Now *spin* it
it is MUCH WORSE in the REST of the world .. and yes people are starving as Americans get fatter Asses and Brains.
You mean take your *spin* off.
How much of your two and a half acres are you using to plant food for all those poor starving people?
all of it for my soon-to-be-POOR-in-face-of-Stupid-Government starving family and friends
and i have yet to see anything from you except ridicule and opinion .. you got the links you asked for and can't even spin well
and you clearly know nothing about it .. links please .. at least i can produce reliable ones on demand .. i have more than my dick in my handI'm sorry apoppin, but you just don't know much about it.
--i guess your professor is also a Right wing moron bottom feeder that infests the little redneck schools of thought