Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Better qualify that with a member of your family under your roof, or that is in the same budget you operate your household in.
I'd like to see what % is internat and external. I looked for a few minutes but couldnt find a definitive answer.
It's approximately 73% internal, 27% external.
Not according to the treasury. 13.399 trillion external as of 3/31/09 (link on prev page
and CIA lists it is 12.5 trillion as of 2007 <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html">https://www.cia.gov/library......rder/2079rank.html</a>
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Skitzer
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Zensal
Look, it doesn't matter what party you belong to, this is insane!!! We cannot keep deficit spending. $12.1 Trillion dollars. Thats $12,100,000,000,000. A quick google search puts the GDP at $13.84 trillion dollars. I do not think that we will ever be able to pay this back.
And IIRC, this does not include the debt owed to the Social Security Trust Fund.
The vast majority of this debt is owed internally. If you owe your wife $20 or vice versa, does it actually matter from a family finance perspective if she 'pays you back' or not?
Vast majority? Are you sure about that? Where do you get your figures from?
Yes, I'm quite sure. The vast majority. People always talk about how China has this stranglehold over the US due to how much of our debt it holds, when in reality it has about 10% of it. (not that this isn't an issue, just not nearly as large of one as people think.)
Originally posted by: alchemize
Actually I'm with you Eskimospy. We just write off all that "family debt", stop paying social security, medicare, TARP, all that other public/private welfare bullshit and we're free and clear. Great idea!
Inflate it away...
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Skitzer
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Zensal
Look, it doesn't matter what party you belong to, this is insane!!! We cannot keep deficit spending. $12.1 Trillion dollars. Thats $12,100,000,000,000. A quick google search puts the GDP at $13.84 trillion dollars. I do not think that we will ever be able to pay this back.
And IIRC, this does not include the debt owed to the Social Security Trust Fund.
The vast majority of this debt is owed internally. If you owe your wife $20 or vice versa, does it actually matter from a family finance perspective if she 'pays you back' or not?
Vast majority? Are you sure about that? Where do you get your figures from?
Yes, I'm quite sure. The vast majority. People always talk about how China has this stranglehold over the US due to how much of our debt it holds, when in reality it has about 10% of it. (not that this isn't an issue, just not nearly as large of one as people think.)
"49.37% Federal Reserve and Intragovernmental Holdings"
Where do they get the money to loan to the gov't?
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Better qualify that with a member of your family under your roof, or that is in the same budget you operate your household in.
I'd like to see what % is internat and external. I looked for a few minutes but couldnt find a definitive answer.
It's approximately 73% internal, 27% external.
Not according to the treasury. 13.399 trillion external as of 3/31/09 (link on prev page
and CIA lists it is 12.5 trillion as of 2007 <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library......rder/2079rank.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...ankorder/2079rank.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html">https://www.cia.gov/l............9rank.html</a></a></a>
This is incorrect. Nowhere does your article say that the 13-odd trillion in debt is externally held, it lists the total debt of the government both internal and external. The CIA factbook does the same. Are you confusing this with intragovernmental debt vs. public debt? Internal debt means internal to the United States, external debt means debt owed to foreign entities.
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Better qualify that with a member of your family under your roof, or that is in the same budget you operate your household in.
I'd like to see what % is internat and external. I looked for a few minutes but couldnt find a definitive answer.
It's approximately 73% internal, 27% external.
Not according to the treasury. 13.399 trillion external as of 3/31/09 (link on prev page
and CIA lists it is 12.5 trillion as of 2007 <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/l............9rank.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/libr........./2079rank.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library......rder/2079rank.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...ankorder/2079rank.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html">https://www.cia.gov/l............ml</a></a></a></a></a>
This is incorrect. Nowhere does your article say that the 13-odd trillion in debt is externally held, it lists the total debt of the government both internal and external. The CIA factbook does the same. Are you confusing this with intragovernmental debt vs. public debt? Internal debt means internal to the United States, external debt means debt owed to foreign entities.
Uh, on the CIa like, let me cut and paste a few things for you.
This entry gives the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services. These figures are calculated on an exchange rate basis, i.e., not in purchasing power parity
Debt - external (with the 12.5 trillion listed immediately under it)
In the treasury link, it clearly says "Table A: Gross External Debt Position*: March 31, 2009"
Tell me what Im missing? If "external" doesnt really mean external, what does it mean?
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Better qualify that with a member of your family under your roof, or that is in the same budget you operate your household in.
I'd like to see what % is internat and external. I looked for a few minutes but couldnt find a definitive answer.
It's approximately 73% internal, 27% external.
Not according to the treasury. 13.399 trillion external as of 3/31/09 (link on prev page
and CIA lists it is 12.5 trillion as of 2007 <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/l............9rank.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/libr........./2079rank.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library......rder/2079rank.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...ankorder/2079rank.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html">https://www.cia.gov/l............ml</a></a></a></a></a>
This is incorrect. Nowhere does your article say that the 13-odd trillion in debt is externally held, it lists the total debt of the government both internal and external. The CIA factbook does the same. Are you confusing this with intragovernmental debt vs. public debt? Internal debt means internal to the United States, external debt means debt owed to foreign entities.
Uh, on the CIa like, let me cut and paste a few things for you.
This entry gives the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services. These figures are calculated on an exchange rate basis, i.e., not in purchasing power parity
Debt - external (with the 12.5 trillion listed immediately under it)
In the treasury link, it clearly says "Table A: Gross External Debt Position*: March 31, 2009"
Tell me what Im missing? If "external" doesnt really mean external, what does it mean?
It means debt external to the government, not to the United States.
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It means debt external to the government, not to the United States.
Got a link showing that?
The US government's debt is public debt, if you owe someone in England $20, that's private debt. External debt in that article is counting both, but we are only discussing US government debt here.This entry gives the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
It means debt external to the government, not to the United States.
Got a link showing that?
I phrased it badly/incorrectly in my original post. As for the link saying that, you can use your own CIA factbook link that you quoted.
The US government's debt is public debt, if you owe someone in England $20, that's private debt. External debt in that article is counting both, but we are only discussing US government debt here.This entry gives the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services.
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Well I found this which seems to contridict what you are saying:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/...blicdebt.htm#DebtOwner
From their FAQ: What is the Debt Held by the Public?
The Debt Held by the Public is all federal debt held by individuals, corporations, state or local governments, foreign governments, and other entities outside the United States Government less Federal Financing Bank securities.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Well I found this which seems to contridict what you are saying:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/...blicdebt.htm#DebtOwner
From their FAQ: What is the Debt Held by the Public?
The Debt Held by the Public is all federal debt held by individuals, corporations, state or local governments, foreign governments, and other entities outside the United States Government less Federal Financing Bank securities.
No it does not at all. You are confusing the external debt of the entire United States with the public debt owed by the government. They are two very different things.
The US 'public debt' is the total debt owed by the government to all the entities you mentioned. This includes both internal debt owed to citizens and external debt owed to foreign entities of any kind. This is currently $12-13 trillion.
The US 'external debt' is the debt owed by all of us, the government included, to foreign entities. This is also currently around $13 trillion, but of that $13 trillion only about $4 trillion (or so) is government owed, the remaining $9 trillion is owed by corporations, or by you and me.
So wouldn't it make sense for the US gov to lend only internally? And at that, to step it up? Certainly there is a drawback to a vast internal debt.Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: alchemize
Oh, so the US debt is held by various family members who are just going to forgive it? :roll:Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unless your mortgage lender is a member of your family, you might want to hold up on calling someone idiotic.
To other posters, IIRC it's about 75% US 25% foreign.
No, they aren't going to forgive it... it just doesn't matter. If your family operates in the same way that most families do, it operates as a cohesive economic unit. If you owe your wife $20 and you pay her back, the net worth of your family changed by zero dollars. If your family owes this to an external entity like say, a mortgage bank, when you pay them back your net worth decreases. When the US government pays a US citizen $20, the net worth and productivity of the US does not change. When the US pays China $20, we lose $20. Foreign owned debt is actual borrowed productivity from somewhere else. Internally owed debt is not.
This isn't a perfect analogy (as people are not entirely economically contained within countries, etc... etc.), but you get the idea.
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Well I found this which seems to contridict what you are saying:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/...blicdebt.htm#DebtOwner
From their FAQ: What is the Debt Held by the Public?
The Debt Held by the Public is all federal debt held by individuals, corporations, state or local governments, foreign governments, and other entities outside the United States Government less Federal Financing Bank securities.
No it does not at all. You are confusing the external debt of the entire United States with the public debt owed by the government. They are two very different things.
The US 'public debt' is the total debt owed by the government to all the entities you mentioned. This includes both internal debt owed to citizens and external debt owed to foreign entities of any kind. This is currently $12-13 trillion.
The US 'external debt' is the debt owed by all of us, the government included, to foreign entities. This is also currently around $13 trillion, but of that $13 trillion only about $4 trillion (or so) is government owed, the remaining $9 trillion is owed by corporations, or by you and me.
Im tired at looking at google searches only to find what Ive found so far. Can you provide a link backing up what youre saying? Its not that I dont believe you, its that everything Im reading is saying something different.
The Debt Held by the Public is all federal debt held by individuals, corporations, state or local governments, foreign governments, and other entities outside the United States Government less Federal Financing Bank securities.
the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services.
Originally posted by: Skoorb
So wouldn't it make sense for the US gov to lend only internally? And at that, to step it up? Certainly there is a drawback to a vast internal debt.Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: alchemize
Oh, so the US debt is held by various family members who are just going to forgive it? :roll:Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unless your mortgage lender is a member of your family, you might want to hold up on calling someone idiotic.
To other posters, IIRC it's about 75% US 25% foreign.
No, they aren't going to forgive it... it just doesn't matter. If your family operates in the same way that most families do, it operates as a cohesive economic unit. If you owe your wife $20 and you pay her back, the net worth of your family changed by zero dollars. If your family owes this to an external entity like say, a mortgage bank, when you pay them back your net worth decreases. When the US government pays a US citizen $20, the net worth and productivity of the US does not change. When the US pays China $20, we lose $20. Foreign owned debt is actual borrowed productivity from somewhere else. Internally owed debt is not.
This isn't a perfect analogy (as people are not entirely economically contained within countries, etc... etc.), but you get the idea.
If we change scales from internal (domestic) and external (say, China), to internal being the planet earth and external being the universe, we could say that all of the debt is internal. The reason this would not appease concerns is that the debt ultimately has to be paid, still, from the US to China, even if there is no net loss between them (should we consider them "on the same team"). Similarly, with things as they are now, the US government still has to pay money from its revenue stream (taxes) to who it owes debt to (even if they are internal), thus weakening its finances and by extension the finances of those it consists of. Now, it consists of people who it owes money to, in part, and chances are they are going to pay disproportionately high taxes anyway due to their wealth, but then on the other hand if the US pays money to China, this makes China wealthier and in turn more liable to buy from the US.
Crap I don't even know where I was going with this. OK I'm going here: nobody has mentioned yet the practical implications of domestic vs foreign debt.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: alchemize
Oh, so the US debt is held by various family members who are just going to forgive it? :roll:Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unless your mortgage lender is a member of your family, you might want to hold up on calling someone idiotic.
To other posters, IIRC it's about 75% US 25% foreign.
No, they aren't going to forgive it... it just doesn't matter. If your family operates in the same way that most families do, it operates as a cohesive economic unit. If you owe your wife $20 and you pay her back, the net worth of your family changed by zero dollars. If your family owes this to an external entity like say, a mortgage bank, when you pay them back your net worth decreases. When the US government pays a US citizen $20, the net worth and productivity of the US does not change. When the US pays China $20, we lose $20. Foreign owned debt is actual borrowed productivity from somewhere else. Internally owed debt is not.
This isn't a perfect analogy (as people are not entirely economically contained within countries, etc... etc.), but you get the idea.
Originally posted by: JTsyo
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: alchemize
Oh, so the US debt is held by various family members who are just going to forgive it? :roll:Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unless your mortgage lender is a member of your family, you might want to hold up on calling someone idiotic.
To other posters, IIRC it's about 75% US 25% foreign.
No, they aren't going to forgive it... it just doesn't matter. If your family operates in the same way that most families do, it operates as a cohesive economic unit. If you owe your wife $20 and you pay her back, the net worth of your family changed by zero dollars. If your family owes this to an external entity like say, a mortgage bank, when you pay them back your net worth decreases. When the US government pays a US citizen $20, the net worth and productivity of the US does not change. When the US pays China $20, we lose $20. Foreign owned debt is actual borrowed productivity from somewhere else. Internally owed debt is not.
This isn't a perfect analogy (as people are not entirely economically contained within countries, etc... etc.), but you get the idea.
We didn't really lose $20 since we borrowed the money in the first place. That money was used in the US and included in our economy.
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: JTsyo
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: alchemize
Oh, so the US debt is held by various family members who are just going to forgive it? :roll:Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unless your mortgage lender is a member of your family, you might want to hold up on calling someone idiotic.
To other posters, IIRC it's about 75% US 25% foreign.
No, they aren't going to forgive it... it just doesn't matter. If your family operates in the same way that most families do, it operates as a cohesive economic unit. If you owe your wife $20 and you pay her back, the net worth of your family changed by zero dollars. If your family owes this to an external entity like say, a mortgage bank, when you pay them back your net worth decreases. When the US government pays a US citizen $20, the net worth and productivity of the US does not change. When the US pays China $20, we lose $20. Foreign owned debt is actual borrowed productivity from somewhere else. Internally owed debt is not.
This isn't a perfect analogy (as people are not entirely economically contained within countries, etc... etc.), but you get the idea.
We didn't really lose $20 since we borrowed the money in the first place. That money was used in the US and included in our economy.
It's amazing to me that people like Eskimospy even exist.
All debt is is bringing future wealth into the current period. Doing so allows investment NOW as opposed to investment TOMORROW. The investment now should have returns greater than the interest the debt bears. Thus, if you can invest now, earning 5% growth rate, while paying 3% interest, you make 2%. Thus, your net worth will not be $0, it will be...
Debt*2%*#years = new net worth.
Now, naturally, if you are borrowing to PREVENT something, such as a financial collapse, the return cannot be measured as a % of spread, other measurements must be gathered.
Of course, one has to ask whether the US has invested well. The answer seems to be pretty evident as we still have the world's largest economy.
Originally posted by: Zensal
Look, it doesn't matter what party you belong to, this is insane!!! We cannot keep deficit spending. $12.1 Trillion dollars. Thats $12,100,000,000,000. A quick google search puts the GDP at $13.84 trillion dollars. I do not think that we will ever be able to pay this back.
And IIRC, this does not include the debt owed to the Social Security Trust Fund.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Zensal
Look, it doesn't matter what party you belong to, this is insane!!! We cannot keep deficit spending. $12.1 Trillion dollars. Thats $12,100,000,000,000. A quick google search puts the GDP at $13.84 trillion dollars. I do not think that we will ever be able to pay this back.
And IIRC, this does not include the debt owed to the Social Security Trust Fund.
The vast majority of this debt is owed internally. If you owe your wife $20 or vice versa, does it actually matter from a family finance perspective if she 'pays you back' or not?
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Zensal
Look, it doesn't matter what party you belong to, this is insane!!! We cannot keep deficit spending. $12.1 Trillion dollars. Thats $12,100,000,000,000. A quick google search puts the GDP at $13.84 trillion dollars. I do not think that we will ever be able to pay this back.
And IIRC, this does not include the debt owed to the Social Security Trust Fund.
The vast majority of this debt is owed internally. If you owe your wife $20 or vice versa, does it actually matter from a family finance perspective if she 'pays you back' or not?
A better analogy might be borrowing money from your families retirement account.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Darwin333
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Zensal
Look, it doesn't matter what party you belong to, this is insane!!! We cannot keep deficit spending. $12.1 Trillion dollars. Thats $12,100,000,000,000. A quick google search puts the GDP at $13.84 trillion dollars. I do not think that we will ever be able to pay this back.
And IIRC, this does not include the debt owed to the Social Security Trust Fund.
The vast majority of this debt is owed internally. If you owe your wife $20 or vice versa, does it actually matter from a family finance perspective if she 'pays you back' or not?
A better analogy might be borrowing money from your families retirement account.
It's really not, because government debt and private debt are totally different things.
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: JTsyo
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: alchemize
Oh, so the US debt is held by various family members who are just going to forgive it? :roll:Originally posted by: eskimospy
Unless your mortgage lender is a member of your family, you might want to hold up on calling someone idiotic.
To other posters, IIRC it's about 75% US 25% foreign.
No, they aren't going to forgive it... it just doesn't matter. If your family operates in the same way that most families do, it operates as a cohesive economic unit. If you owe your wife $20 and you pay her back, the net worth of your family changed by zero dollars. If your family owes this to an external entity like say, a mortgage bank, when you pay them back your net worth decreases. When the US government pays a US citizen $20, the net worth and productivity of the US does not change. When the US pays China $20, we lose $20. Foreign owned debt is actual borrowed productivity from somewhere else. Internally owed debt is not.
This isn't a perfect analogy (as people are not entirely economically contained within countries, etc... etc.), but you get the idea.
We didn't really lose $20 since we borrowed the money in the first place. That money was used in the US and included in our economy.
It's amazing to me that people like Eskimospy even exist.
All debt is is bringing future wealth into the current period. Doing so allows investment NOW as opposed to investment TOMORROW. The investment now should have returns greater than the interest the debt bears. Thus, if you can invest now, earning 5% growth rate, while paying 3% interest, you make 2%. Thus, your net worth will not be $0, it will be...
Debt*2%*#years = new net worth.
Now, naturally, if you are borrowing to PREVENT something, such as a financial collapse, the return cannot be measured as a % of spread, other measurements must be gathered.
Of course, one has to ask whether the US has invested well. The answer seems to be pretty evident as we still have the world's largest economy.
What on earth are you talking about? I'm not sure how you could possibly think that my posts indicated that borrowing money couldn't have positive returns or that it wasn't a desirable thing in many situations. Are you so used to the people on here freaking out about debt and lending that you reflexively thought I was one of them?
My posts specifically centered only on the difference between money borrowed inside of the US and money borrowed outside of it, and how money circulating inside of our economy is considerably different than money being sent to an outside economy that interacts with ours in a more limited way.
EDIT: In simple terms I was trying to illustrate how paying interest to ourselves is much different than paying interest to an outside entity.
Originally posted by: BoberFett
If paying interest to ourselves is OK, then shouldn't you be OK with high profit margins? We're just paying profit to ourselves. But you sure do find ways to complain about how much insurance or oil companies make.
So which is it? Does the destination of income matter or not? If the US debt is held by the wealthy, then doesn't paying them interest equal further concentration of wealth by borrowing from them and paying them interest?
Make up your mind.