Deception; fermi's wood screws vs ivy bridge's video

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georgec84

Senior member
May 9, 2011
234
0
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You seem a bit behind the times my boy.

Not only did Anand test it live, so too now has BSN

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2012/1/10/exclusive-intel-lets-us-test-dx11-on-ivy-bridge.aspx
Overall, though, we did enjoy playing F1 2011 on this Ivy Bridge Ultrabook and it ran extremely smoothly without any dropped frames or lag at all.

I like how you take one sentence out of context and draw various conclusions from it. Here's more info:

Intel invited us this morning to come to their booth and take a look at the DX11 demo ourselves and to test it out first hand using the exact same system that Mooley Eden had been using. We unfortunately did not have the luxury to play it with a steering wheel like Mooley did, but it was definitely an interesting experience to be playing it in real time on an Ivy Bridge Ultrabook. We simply played F1 2011 on Medium settings with the display running at medium settings in DX11 mode. We played this game like we normally do, with a mouse and keyboard and had quite a bit of fun, to be honest.

We also got a chance to run the game in benchmark mode which runs the game with higher graphics and allows you to see the overall performance of the game on your system. The Intel representative would not let us run the game through til the end where the score showed itself simply because they aren't quite finished optimizing Ivy Bridge yet and it would be unfair to show an unfinished benchmark. Overall, though, we did enjoy playing F1 2011 on this Ivy Bridge Ultrabook and it ran extremely smoothly without any dropped frames or lag at all.

No surprise it can run on medium (aka low) settings. For an ultrabook that's fine, but for mainstream laptops people will want more.

It's perfectly reasonable to not have final performance data right now and not make final judgments, but the rah-rah-rah chanting over any questions/doubts about how well the IB GPU will perform is a bit silly.
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
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No surprise it can run on medium (aka low) settings. For an ultrabook that's fine, but for mainstream laptops people will want more.

I can sense a strong bias here.

There is Ultra Low, low, then Med... So aka not low, medium.


Let's keep in mind we're talking about Intel here, they didn't overspend to buy a gpu company. Compared to where they were just 2-3 years ago they're doing a great job, even if this isn't as fast as what AMD has at least you can sleep well knowing the next gen mobile gpus won't be bottlenecked to heck in back by low clocked bulldozer cores.
 

Riek

Senior member
Dec 16, 2008
409
14
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I can sense a strong bias here.

There is Ultra Low, low, then Med... So aka not low, medium.


Let's keep in mind we're talking about Intel here, they didn't overspend to buy a gpu company. Compared to where they were just 2-3 years ago they're doing a great job, even if this isn't as fast as what AMD has at least you can sleep well knowing the next gen mobile gpus won't be bottlenecked to heck in back by low clocked bulldozer cores.

I can sense a strong bias here.



 

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,135
832
136
I like how you take one sentence out of context and draw various conclusions from it.
I like how your reading comprehension is such that you confuse yourself.

It's perfectly reasonable to not have final performance data right now and not make final judgments
Well with that admission, if your thinking wasn't so confused, you would recognise that I didn't take anything out of context.
 

Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,914
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a very poor move by Intel, really not befitting the leader in the semi-conductor industry.
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
136
Yeah it's typical intel style though. They don't have to sell hardware on technical merits or capabities, they can sell it by playing charades! So it looks like intel tried to polish this turd and put a happy face on it, while in reality it's the same old steaming pile it always was.

Anyway, IB is old news. There's much more exciting tech on the market now...
 

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,135
832
136
Yeah it's typical intel style though. They don't have to sell hardware on technical merits or capabities, they can sell it by playing charades! So it looks like intel tried to polish this turd and put a happy face on it, while in reality it's the same old steaming pile it always was.

Anyway, IB is old news. There's much more exciting tech on the market now...
You are mistaken, Haswell doesn't come out till 2013.
 

Flipped Gazelle

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2004
6,666
3
81
I can sense a strong bias here.

There is Ultra Low, low, then Med... So aka not low, medium.


Let's keep in mind we're talking about Intel here, they didn't overspend to buy a gpu company. Compared to where they were just 2-3 years ago they're doing a great job, even if this isn't as fast as what AMD has at least you can sleep well knowing the next gen mobile gpus won't be bottlenecked to heck in back by low clocked bulldozer cores.

We're all dying to know how your meeting with Kettle went.
 

Flipped Gazelle

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2004
6,666
3
81
Yeah it's typical intel style though. They don't have to sell hardware on technical merits or capabities, they can sell it by playing charades! So it looks like intel tried to polish this turd and put a happy face on it, while in reality it's the same old steaming pile it always was.

Anyway, IB is old news. There's much more exciting tech on the market now...

You're right, Intel doesn't "have to", because they are the 800lb gorilla of the industry. They have so much leverage with oems that Intel really could sell them turds to pass on to the consumer, and the oems would "have to" do it.

But... to say that IB is a "turd" based on a gaffe by the demo team is ridiculous.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
LOL!!!! Awesome, he expected to play a game by clicking on VLC. You actually expect anyone to even remotely believe that? Comedy, you are good at it.

Case closed? What? Intel faked a demo, then lied about faking the demo, then hastily prepared a follow up that gets posted on Anandtech.com using different hardware.

Not case closed. This is incredibly poor form by Intel, there is simply no excuse for doing this, and any sort of follow up demo has to be called into question as well.

When I say "case closed" I mean in regards to the position I held earlier that the reasoning for this staged hokey "demo" was that it probably meant IB was not at all as mature as it needs to be at this stage in the timeline.

I read into Intel's desperation to not do an actual demo to mean IB was borked in ways that lessened my confidence of a Mar/Apr launch.

I did not mean "case closed" to say all was forgiven or that intent and effort to lie and deceive was now explained, rationalized, or justified.

So let me get this straight. You think Mooly Eden pressed the play button on VLC thinking that is how you start a game? Do you happen to know the position Mooly Eden holds at Intel? A 10 year old knows that a video player doesn't start a game.

This is the bottom line. Regardless the reason for said deception, said deception was the plan from time-zero of that particular segment of the press demo of IB.

It speaks poorly of Intel, it speaks poorly of Mooly. Those are the kinds of hits to one's credibility that are only recoverable if you own up to them, and even then it will still require time to rebuild the trust.

Mooly has not owned up, neither has Intel. All they've done is provide proof to the excuse that IB itself is not borked. They have not done anything to own up to their attempts at deception, nor has Mooly.

And for me personally, this arrogance on their part is only further undermining what little was left of their credibility.

There is a difference between having a derp-moment when publicly speaking (I've been there) and flubbing what you are trying to communicate versus having a derp-moment and your first inclination is to attempt to recover from it with yet another lie.

There is no way you can convince me that Mooly honestly thought the game was being played backstage after he was the one who pressed the play button on the video in the first place.

The fact he backpedaled and attempted to recover by proffering up yet another lie/deception only confirms (for me) the character behind the man was nothing at all what I had thought it was. And that makes me a sad panda, TBH, because I like to think the best of people and that honest mistakes can happen to anyone

But not admitting to your mistake, and further lying about it in the first place...just not good. Not good at all. I'm not as dissapointed in Intel as I am in Mooly. Intel is a business, businesses don't have ethics because they aren't alive. But Mooly did something unethical and only he can right that wrong. But he hasn't, and doesn't appear to be inclined to.
 

Flipped Gazelle

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2004
6,666
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<lots of logical discourse>

But at the end of the day, IB will be just fine, the GPU won't be great relative to AMD but most folks will overlook that based on the CPU-style performance, and we'll all have a light-hearted chuckle over "Mooly's Mistake".
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
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I think one of the reasons they haven't owned up to attempting to deceive is then the conversation would move on to "Why did you do it?" After seeing the Trinity CES information and video http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2218939 I think the answer is that Intel thinks Trinity might start cutting into their juicy ULV ASPs.
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
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When I say "case closed" I mean in regards to the position I held earlier that the reasoning for this staged hokey "demo" was that it probably meant IB was not at all as mature as it needs to be at this stage in the timeline.

.....

I did not mean "case closed" to say all was forgiven or that intent and effort to lie and deceive was now explained, rationalized, or justified.
Understood.
This is the bottom line. Regardless the reason for said deception, said deception was the plan from time-zero of that particular segment of the press demo of IB.
Of course. Intel had to play the game (on unknown hardware at this point) and capture it to a video file.
There is no way you can convince me that Mooly honestly thought the game was being played backstage after he was the one who pressed the play button on the video in the first place.
There is simply no way this can be possible, Mooly would have to be absolutely clueless to think that, and given his position with Intel, that is blatantly obvious to not be the case.
But not admitting to your mistake, and further lying about it in the first place...just not good. Not good at all. I'm not as dissapointed in Intel as I am in Mooly. Intel is a business, businesses don't have ethics because they aren't alive. But Mooly did something unethical and only he can right that wrong. But he hasn't, and doesn't appear to be inclined to.
Keep in mind that any business is the people, without people the business does not exist. The ethics and culture put forth by individuals is very often a reflection of the overall culture of the corporation they work for. You see this time and time again. I will remind everyone the past practices of Intel, they bribed their suppliers to the tune of billions of dollars.

Given Intel's placement in the marketplace, this type of behaviour does not surprise me, it happens to basically all corporations in a monopoly position. I find it very disappointing myself, but expect it. It also tends to make a person wonder, if this type of deception is attempted right in front of our noses, what else goes on that we don't know about?
 

Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
5,195
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I'm sorry, but if you think that mooly didn't know that was a video and wasn't trying to deceive anyone, you really aren't in touch with reality.

So some of you guys think he didn't know he was playing a video? So you are saying he doesn't really know how to use a computer?
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
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So Mooly is retarded and needs to be fired, because quite frankly any idiot who has used a computer would know it was a video the moment he clicked play.

Frankly I don't understand why he started to play, then decided not to continue...

He doesn't even talk about anything while "attempting" to deceive everyone, he progresses to the point where he just leaves the wheel before even talking about anything, once right away he said DX11, but that was it. Everything else was rambling leading up to the point where he quit faking the funk.



Dialog:

Woo DX11

Wooo 1 handed

Wooo no handed

Wooo they're playing it in the back (and they were, it just wasn't being projected to the screen out front, lolz)
 
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formulav8

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2000
7,004
522
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There is no way you can convince me that Mooly honestly thought the game was being played backstage after he was the one who pressed the play button on the video in the first place.

You can be quite positive that he outright KNEW what they were going to do and what was going on. That is, Purposely deceive people to make it look like IB is all its cracked up to be and peachy.

IIRC someone said the video was even choppy which I guess means IB couldn't handle the game at the current settings.

Anyways, Intel doesn't care about ethics. Thats quite obvious. Not even a tiny bit surprised. :thumbsdown:
 
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georgec84

Senior member
May 9, 2011
234
0
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I like how your reading comprehension is such that you confuse yourself.


Well with that admission, if your thinking wasn't so confused, you would recognise that I didn't take anything out of context.

?

You definitely took it out of context.

Why should Intel be immune to any kind of doubt about their performance? Sure they are the top dog right now, but it seems many people simply assume they will roll through a 22nm 3D process without any problems.

If there's no reason to lie about the live demo, why lie?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
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If there's no reason to lie about the live demo, why lie?

You know for sure there had to be a reason for them to go to the effort, and take on the risk of detection, but I suspect its one of those things we won't know the deal until enough time passes that we see the dots to connect in hindsight. Or we'll simply never know and it'll just become another "WTF was that about!?" moments.
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
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I'm connecting the dots to the Trinity demo AMD was doing. In the video
http://hothardware.com/News/AMD-Fus...00M-Mobile-GPUs-and-Lightning-Bolt-In-Action/
You can see AMD is running a game bench of what appears to be the same F1 game that Mooly is playing a video of.

Question Intel is avoiding is why? Why do it? I'm speculating they don't like where they see ULV chip prices going when AMD starts shipping 17W Trinity chips. The hyped up ultrabook sales pitch would be in line with trying to minimize the number of OEM deals Trinity gets.
 
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Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
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Ivy Bridge is still increasing its graphical performance over SB more than Trinity over Llano, and its doing that while maintaining the huge lead in CPU performance that SB had over Llano. Four IB cores with HT when you need CPU power + good enough IGP @ 35W TDP (lower than older Intel parts thanks to 22nm). Works for me.
 
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Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
I'm connecting the dots to the Trinity demo AMD was doing. In the video
http://hothardware.com/News/AMD-Fus...00M-Mobile-GPUs-and-Lightning-Bolt-In-Action/
You can see AMD is running a game bench of what appears to be the same F1 game that Mooly is playing a video of.

Question Intel is avoiding is why? Why do it? I'm speculating they don't like where they see ULV chip prices going when AMD starts shipping 17W Trinity chips. The hyped up ultrabook sales pitch would be in line with trying to minimize the number of OEM deals Trinity gets.



How is Trinity that mature and yet IB is going to launch first
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
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We can't know for certain Idontcare, but it seems the answer would be production related. It can't be easy to hit the 17W target and they would need quite a lot of them available for shipment to satisfy an ultrabook style launch.

Although as I typed that I am starting to wonder if perhaps they are playing a game of chicken with Intel. Wanting to know IB launch specs so they can tweak their Trinity launch.
 
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notty22

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2010
3,375
0
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I actually lean toward the side that thinks companies want to avoid what happened to Bill Gates when he first showed of USB. He got a BSOD. How they go about avoiding that ? The author in this article thinks , if they need to go to those lengths, the tech is not ready yet ?

http://gizmodo.com/5874753/intel-caught-faking-ultrabook-gaming-demo
liars
By Jesus Diaz
Jan 10, 2012 10:35 AM
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Intel Caught Faking Ultrabook Gaming Demo



The fact is that, if you don't have the balls to play with your technology on a stage, then your tech is not really ready for deployment. It's too fragile.
We&#8212;the journalists and the consumers&#8212;should call them out. Not apologize for them. Demos should be live. Otherwise, just play a video and say it's a video, not a demo. The fact is that you will never have any backstage people to switch to a second computer when your computer crashes. And pretending you are playing while a video plays is boring.
Don't accept the beta culture. We all should demand reality and never defend companies faking it because "that's what they all do". &#8212;JD.
 
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