Deception; fermi's wood screws vs ivy bridge's video

[AnandThenMan]

Intel's excuse was, "not enough time". Well, they found the time to play the game, capture and encode the video, put it on a unit to be played back, setup a steering wheel (that did nothing) so the excuse doesn't fly.

I am disappointed that Anandtech.com is downplaying this, any company that tries to pull this crap needs to be racked over the coals. And then ridiculed, and then ridiculed some more. If the tech is not ready to be shown live, then don't pretend to show it live, just don't show it at all.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

I wonder if the demo was really recorded on an IB? :hmm:

 

[piesquared]

Yes, why does intel repeatedly get held to much lower standards that practically anyone else in the industry? And like the article says, how does it come to pass that some are actually apologizing for intel.

 

[paul878]

Was Intel planing on telling everyone this "not enought time" if they didn't get busted.. LOL

 

[dma0991]

On the technical side, we know that the HD4000 will in fact play F1 as shown by Anand. On the other end, many are just beating the 800 pound gorilla when it is down just for the kicks. No amount of coup de grace by the general public can bring down Intel that is for sure.

Everything would just be swept under the rug as Intel could pull off a Bulldozer and users would still be forced to buy their products.

 

[CHADBOGA]

Yes, why does intel repeatedly get held to much lower standards that practically anyone else in the industry?

They aren't held to a lower standard.

It is just that rabid fanboys like yourself read far too much into things like this and are then amazed that normal people shrug their shoulders and say meh.

BTW, what do you think people should be doing in response to the dodgy demo?

 

[Martimus]

They aren't held to a lower standard.

It is just that rabid fanboys like yourself read far too much into things like this and are then amazed that normal people shrug their shoulders and say meh.

BTW, what do you think people should be doing in response to the dodgy demo?

I have to admit that this is a big deal to me. The article from Anandtech wasn't nearly good enough to make this seem like a little thing.

The truth is I didn't care much about the IGP in Ivy that much, but seeing them try to fake the results makes me care about that portion. I recently bought a Llano laptop for my daughter, and I can say that because of this video I will not buy an Ivybridge to replace my laptop. I will likely go with another Llano. (Besides, the Llano is just awesome that I got her, and I am amazed by the video capabilities of it!)

That said, I am not likely to get an IB for my desktop anyway, since I just got a 2600K. Even so, this kind of thing sticks in my head and I will definitely be hesitant to ever purchase a Intel product in the future, because they have proven that they are willing to try to defraud their customers for their own short term gain. It is the same reason I won't buy a Toyota or nVidia product, or shop at Best Buy.

 

[CHADBOGA]

Even so, this kind of thing sticks in my head and I will definitely be hesitant to ever purchase a Intel product in the future, because they have proven that they are willing to try to defraud their customers for their own short term gain.

Considering both Anand and BSN showed that IB could actually do what Intel were trying to convey in their botched demo, where is the actual defrauding?

It is not like Intel went around for 18 months telling everyone IPC on IB will be higher and then it comes out 10% lower.

 

[Martimus]

Considering both Anand and BSN showed that IB could actually do what Intel were trying to convey in their botched demo, where is the actual defrauding?

Playing a video of something, and pretending it is a live demo in front of the audience they did is the actual defrauding.

Attempting to prove what they tried to fake after the fact doesn't change that. If they never got caught then they never would have even attempted to prove it. I also read those "articles" and neither was indepth enough for me to believe after this initial deception. Once bitten, it takes a heck of a lot more effort to get me to believe what you are trying to sell me.

Who says that the following demos weren't also deceptions, just more elaborate? While I wouldn't have thought twice about the demos if they came out first, they didn't come out until the first obvious attempt at deception, so now I look at them with a larger microscope, just like anyone else that actually cares about it.

 

[Idontcare]

I have to admit that this is a big deal to me.

Its a big deal to me too because now not only do I have to wonder what it is that Intel is not telling us (lies of omission) but I also get to wonder what manner of deception is being attempted right under my nose.

I saw this over on [H]; it speaks to ethics and the intrinsically pervasive nature that a cheating mindset usual makes for an individual who doesn't have a problem cheating in other avenues of life as well.

This is why trust is so valued by society, and so difficult to rebuild once it is broken.

I liked never having to wonder whether Intel's demos were faked to manipulate the public, now I no longer have that luxury and Intel (Mooly specifically) no longer has my trust.

 

[CHADBOGA]

Playing a video of something, and pretending it is a live demo in front of the audience they did is the actual defrauding.

Attempting to prove what they tried to fake after the fact doesn't change that. If they never got caught then they never would have even attempted to prove it. I also read those "articles" and neither was indepth enough for me to believe after this initial deception. Once bitten, it takes a heck of a lot more effort to get me to believe what you are trying to sell me.

Who says that the following demos weren't also deceptions, just more elaborate? While I wouldn't have thought twice about the demos if they came out first, they didn't come out until the first obvious attempt at deception, so now I look at them with a larger microscope, just like anyone else that actually cares about it.

Well reviews by a million and one sites will be out a day or so before the product is available for sale, so it isn't like people are going to be hoodwinked.

BTW, how offended were you that an AMD representative spent 18 months on multiple prominent computer enthusiast forums misrepresenting Bulldozer's IPC?

What's the bet you never made a word of criticism?

 

[dma0991]

This is why trust is so valued by society, and so difficult to rebuild once it is broken.

I liked never having to wonder whether Intel's demos were faked to manipulate the public, now I no longer have that luxury and Intel (Mooly specifically) no longer has my trust.

AMD and Intel has lied to us. In ARM we trust.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Well reviews by a million and one sites will be out a day or so before the product is available for sale, so it isn't like people are going to be hoodwinked.

BTW, how offended were you that an AMD representative spent 18 months on multiple prominent computer enthusiast forums misrepresenting Bulldozer's IPC?

What's the bet you never made a word of criticism?

This has nothing to do with AMD - why do you keep bringing them up in a thread about an Intel demo?

You throw around the term "fanboy", yet you're acting like the poster child for it. People do this when they are incapable of forming a relevant argument.

 

[railven]

BTW, how offended were you that an AMD representative spent 18 months on multiple prominent computer enthusiast forums misrepresenting Bulldozer's IPC?

What's the bet you never made a word of criticism?

That to me is a good comparative. If he supports AMD after that fiasco, I find it ironic that he won't support Intel after this fiasco.

In the end, we're all getting screwed. Remind me when a company actually has my interest as their priority. I'm at a point where I'm just picking the least of two evils.

 

[railven]

This has nothing to do with AMD - why do you keep bringing them up in a thread about an Intel demo?

You throw around the term "fanboy", yet you're acting like the poster child for it. People do this when they are incapable of forming a relevant argument.

Read who he is responding to. That person introduced AMD into their arguement. It is only fair and a good rebuttal to point out the weakness in someone's counter.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Read who he is responding to. That person introduced AMD into their arguement. It is only fair and a good rebuttal to point out the weakness in someone's counter.

He does this in other arguments, too, with other posters. In this very thread, as a matter of fact.

Edit: And, as a matter of fact, there is no point in bringing up AMD in this thread at all. It just starts fanboy wars.

 

[railven]

He does this in other arguments, too, with other posters. In this very thread, as a matter of fact.

I just found this thread and read all the responses. I get a hint there is prior history between Chad and Pie - possibly from other threads. However, Chad isn't bringing AMD out of the blue, he responded to people who brought it up before him as a counter to their points.

Edit: And, as a matter of fact, there is no point in bringing up AMD in this thread at all. It just starts fanboy wars.

Well then you should be directing that to people on page - who introduced AMD into this thread long before fanboy wars started.

EDIT:

The first real inflammatory AMD vs Intel post

Probably recorded that from a Brazos platform.

That is just begging for flames to start. Before that it was just about AMD employees deflecting to Intel and NDA/Non-Compete agreements.

 

[Martimus]

Well reviews by a million and one sites will be out a day or so before the product is available for sale, so it isn't like people are going to be hoodwinked.

BTW, how offended were you that an AMD representative spent 18 months on multiple prominent computer enthusiast forums misrepresenting Bulldozer's IPC?

What's the bet you never made a word of criticism?

I don't own a Bulldozer, nor do I plan to purchase one. Llano on the other hand is a very nice setup for laptops, which I may update relatively soon since my daughter spilled something on my laptop and the enter button doesn't really work anymore.

I also fail to see how the IPC for Bulldozer has to do with this conversation. I don't believe that AMD will still be making higher end x86 CPUs by the time I will next upgrade, so I don't even see them as relevant in my thought process.

Also, I don't think John Fuentes was intentionally misleading people when he claimed that IPC would increase, since once it the chips were actually taped out at near final sillicon he stopped talking about IPC (early last year). I think he honestly believed that IPC would increase, until it was shown otherwise. That said, I will be far less inclined to believe AMD claims ahead of actual product launch from now on.

EDIT: The reason I brought up Llano in the first place was that I was going back and forth between buying an i3 or Llano for the same price for my daughter, and I bought the Llano due to the better graphics. I have been impressed with it so far as it seems to run everything at max settings at the 1366x766 native resolution it has. My experience with my current i3 laptop is frustrating when it comes to graphics and driver stability.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

Its a big deal to me too because now not only do I have to wonder what it is that Intel is not telling us (lies of omission) but I also get to wonder what manner of deception is being attempted right under my nose.

I liked never having to wonder whether Intel's demos were faked to manipulate the public, now I no longer have that luxury and Intel (Mooly specifically) no longer has my trust.

I'm a little surprised by this, IDC. Lying and anti-consumer practices are rampant in many industries. Remember when HD TV's first started gaining consumer-market penetration, and all the complaints from folks who bought their $3000 plasma TV's, only to find that picture quality sucked until they hooked up HD service, which had a marginal channel selection at that point? This was never pointed out by Sony, Philips, et al. Sony with rootkits, Intel and M$ found guilty of anti-trust/anti-consumer practices, yada yada yada.

Maybe I'm less bothered by this Intel demo fiasco because I expect it, from everybody.

 

[railven]

I'm a little surprised by this, IDC. Lying and anti-consumer practices are rampant in many industries. Remember when HD TV's first started gaining consumer-market penetration, and all the complaints from folks who bought their $3000 plasma TV's, only to find that picture quality sucked until they hooked up HD service, which had a marginal channel selection at that point? This was never pointed out by Sony, Philips, et al. Sony with rootkits, Intel and M$ found guilty of anti-trust/anti-consumer practices, yada yada yada.

Maybe I'm less bothered by this Intel demo fiasco because I expect it, from everybody.

That's more in lines of a pre-requisite than deception. If you want to use a better analogy, think about all the early models labeled with "TRUE HD" or "FULL HD" or "1080P HD" and then the panel had a native resolution of 1366x768.

I had to explain to a few friends/family members why their shiney new HDTV didn't do 1080p and why 1080i looked "fuzzier" than 720p.

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

I just found this thread and read all the responses. I get a hint there is prior history between Chad and Pie - possibly from other threads. However, Chad isn't bringing AMD out of the blue, he responded to people who brought it up before him as a counter to their points.



Well then you should be directing that to people on page - who introduced AMD into this thread long before fanboy wars started.

EDIT:

The first real inflammatory AMD vs Intel post



That is just begging for flames to start. Before that it was just about AMD employees deflecting to Intel and NDA/Non-Compete agreements.

Chad brought AMD "out of the blue" when responding to Martimus, who only mentioned AMD in the context that he had a Llano so didn't really need IB IGP, and also mentioned he didn't need IB at all because of his new 2600k.

 

[Martimus]

I'm a little surprised by this, IDC. Lying and anti-consumer practices are rampant in many industries. Remember when HD TV's first started gaining consumer-market penetration, and all the complaints from folks who bought their $3000 plasma TV's, only to find that picture quality sucked until they hooked up HD service, which had a marginal channel selection at that point? This was never pointed out by Sony, Philips, et al. Sony with rootkits, Intel and M$ found guilty of anti-trust/anti-consumer practices, yada yada yada.

Maybe I'm less bothered by this Intel demo fiasco because I expect it, from everybody.

It still bothers me, and every time I hear of it I shy away from that company when there are comparable alternatives. Unlike Intel, Sony generally has competitors that have equivalent products, so I haven't had to buy anything from Sony in quite a long time. I haven't heard of Phillips deceptions though, I would appreciate a PM with some information if you have some time. Microsoft I am mostly stuck with, but lately other alternatives have been springing up that I have jumped on.

 

[Vesku]

I must have missed the forum posts defending Bulldozer pre-launch information, would like to read them if someone can link to them. I'm certainly not cutting AMD any slack on that product release, I don't agree in just shrugging off such events. This event is another reminder of why many jokes are made about public relations and marketing.

 

[railven]

Chad brought AMD "out of the blue" when responding to Martimus, who only mentioned AMD in the context that he had a Llano so didn't really need IB IGP, and also mentioned he didn't need IB at all because of his new 2600k.

Beyond how Martimus implied it, interpretation is left for all to have.

I read it more as: I'm using an AMD chip in my laptop and this is why. And because of Intel's recent incedent I won't be using an Intel processor in my future laptop, and this is why.

I have to admit that this is a big deal to me. The article from Anandtech wasn't nearly good enough to make this seem like a little thing.

The truth is I didn't care much about the IGP in Ivy that much, but seeing them try to fake the results makes me care about that portion. I recently bought a Llano laptop for my daughter, and I can say that because of this video I will not buy an Ivybridge to replace my laptop. I will likely go with another Llano. (Besides, the Llano is just awesome that I got her, and I am amazed by the video capabilities of it!)

That said, I am not likely to get an IB for my desktop anyway, since I just got a 2600K. Even so, this kind of thing sticks in my head and I will definitely be hesitant to ever purchase a Intel product in the future, because they have proven that they are willing to try to defraud their customers for their own short term gain. It is the same reason I won't buy a Toyota or nVidia product, or shop at Best Buy.

I'd counter the same as Chad did - you have no quals with supporting AMD after their Bulldozer fiasco? Yet this is enough to push you away from a future Intel purchase?

While I'm not taking sides (and yes, I am Intel bias) I personally saw nothing wrong with how the points unfolded. So, I don't agree that it was out of the blue. Martimus took a clear position on AMD vs Intel and how it affects his buying decisions. Chad countered it.

Add to that, Martimus openly said he'd buy another AMD product to replace his laptop down the road - what if it has Bulldozer modules in it? Then would he change his position?

 

[Flipped Gazelle]

It still bothers me, and every time I hear of it I shy away from that company when there are comparable alternatives. Unlike Intel, Sony generally has competitors that have equivalent products, so I haven't had to buy anything from Sony in quite a long time. I haven't heard of Phillips deceptions though, I would appreciate a PM with some information if you have some time. Microsoft I am mostly stuck with, but lately other alternatives have been springing up that I have jumped on.

YHPM , nothing that the rest of the industry didn't do.