Decline of SFF

[larciel]

Just recently (2-3yrs ago) SFF was the next 'thing'. Shuttle was the pioneer and everyone followed from Biostar, MSI, even Iwill

Now, I barely see SFF make headlines.. What happened to the market? I believe decreasing price on laptops pushed SFF out of its niche. What daaya think?

 

[Minjin]

I'd agree. I still recommend desktops to most people but the price of laptops has become very attractive. Personally, I've never been so interested in SFF for the sake of being small but for the sake of being quiet and power efficient. And if you think about it, thats pretty much what a laptop is.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: Minjin
I'd agree. I still recommend desktops to most people but the price of laptops has become very attractive. Personally, I've never been so interested in SFF for the sake of being small but for the sake of being quiet and power efficient. And if you think about it, thats pretty much what a laptop is.

That's probably what happened.

Some of those SFF boxes are really expensive, as in $400+ for just a barebones. Also, IMO Shuttle boxes don't quite have a stellar reputation for being problem free.

The other thing is the demographics... Gamers want to be able to run the latest graphics cards, and that's a problem with the SFF boxes. Everyone else who just needs a working computer... buys a Dell or HP since they don't build their own. People who want small and unique... get a Mac Mini.

 

[wwswimming]

i don't think they've declined as a share of the market.
but, to get a better idea, there's always
http://sfftech.com/

when i moved a year ago, the sales person came over
to look at my home, and zeroed right in on the "antique"
SFF systems decorating the shelves. she thought they
were cool, with the blue lights.

i think the general public just wants a computer. they
go to Circuit City and buy what they can afford. i've
seen SFF's at CompUSA, but not assembled.

 

[erikistired]

we all bought laptops.

 

[VinDSL]

Originally posted by: larciel
What happened to the [SFF] market? I believe decreasing price on laptops pushed SFF out of its niche. What daaya think?

You've judged wisely!

Everybody and his brother is buying lappys now!

End of story...

 

[gorobei]

laptops and notebooks are fine for most people. The real issue is when people try to upgrade anything other than memory and maybe harddrives. When the LCD backlighting starts to fade, the video card doesn't run a particular game, or the next optical drive standard comes out, laptop owners find out how expensive it is to repair/replace. Those used to dropping in a new part/upgrade will start to rethink buying what is effectively a disposable product. Don't get me wrong, i think pc's becoming a true consumer appliance is a good idea(ie turnkey systems with software included.)

I suspect we'll see more imac, gateway one, sony vaio, dell XPS one All-in-one type systems as soon as people realize they don't need full portablity and want more processing power.

 

[Tenet]

I disagree that that SFF systems are in the same category as laptops -in spite of Anand Tech's grouping (more on that later). They have much more in common with a traditional desktop in that you have to hook them up with a monitor, keyboard, and mouse which relegates it to being mainly a stationary fixture. The only difference is the shape and size.

The laptop has everything built-in and can be transported instantly, even while it's running. This makes it a different animal.

So yes, the low prices of laptops have caused the wane of SFFs AND traditional desktops alike.

On a related note, I wish that SFF could be a sole category here in the forums instead of getting lumped in with (and drowned out by) laptop issues. Don't know if that idea needs support from more users to make it happen.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Sudhian has excellent SFF forums; they blow AT out of the water in that area. In fact, I think I'm heading over there right now... Just Google Sudhian and you'll find them.

SFF does look like a solution searching for a problem right now. I have one and it's done great for me, but it is a BIT inflexible in some ways. I've also heard here and elsewhere that many Shuttles start dying after two years; mine is almost exactly 2 years old so I'm crossing my fingers...

 

[gorobei]

The problem is that SFF has come to mean a lot of things to different people. And each subset has different priorities.

HomeTheaterPC: small, silent, thin enough to fit entertainment centers. Usually low heat parts, poor ventilation, and more concerned with I/O connectivity and 2D vid processing.
Business SFF barebone: smaller, low power consumption, nominal cpu power, integrated gpu. Occasionally quiet, but not really meant for upgrading given smallish PSU.
'Smaller than ATX' homebuilder: Smaller cases and smaller M/B, but full sized GPU HD ODD H/S PSU. More concerned with being compatible with a lot of parts and more expandable.

The only thing shared between the categories is that they usually use the same chipsets.

And yes the laptop and pre-built should be their own forum(the main bulk is what or where to buy), and SFF a seperate forum (or a sticky in Cases and Cooling).

 

[erwos]

A few things happened:
1. Shuttle priced themselves out of their own market, and was rather slow with new releases.
2. Competitors generally didn't step up to fill the void.
3. Laptops became much more affordable.
4. Consumer electronics media streamers (both UPnP and Microsoft's "Media Center Extenders") mostly obviated HTPCs.

 

[drewfus]

People want a paradox. they want extremely powerful pcs, but they want them small and inexpensive. its just not practical. high end parts need room to breathe, and those sff cases just dont have it. not at the the pricepoint shoppers want anyway.

its like cell phones, they get smaller and smaller with more and more features that people think they want. and they only hold a charge for about 5 minutes. batteries take up space, and when you jam them all small, dont be to shocked if it explodes when you are trying to call verizon tech support

 

[wwswimming]

Everybody and his brother is buying lappys now!

true, the sales curves for laptops are about like this -

_____.
____.
___.
__.
_.

... a curve with a positive slope, where Y=mX+B,
and m>0.

BUT ==> i think it depends a lot on what you
call "small form factor". if you include micro-ATX
systems in smaller cases, like the XQ-Pack and
all the other uATX cases, well, i don't know what
that curve looks like.

 

[capeconsultant]

I built a couple Shuttles. They were wicked hard to work on and no way quiet enough. They had some damn nerve calling those things quiet.

Try an HP Pavillion Slimline if you want SILENT.

And pricey too. Nuff said

 

[nowayout99]

Everyone's pointed to a lot of good reasons.

I chalk it up as a fad that came and went. That's not to say they'll go away, but it's not "hot" anymore also because they were not able to capitalize and keep up with the pace of technology and the needs of enthusiasts.

The Shuttle cases, motherboards, and PSUs being proprietary and unswappable became a major hindrance. You couldn't match the case you want with the motherboard you want, with the power supply you need. You have to take the prefab models they offer, and they all seemed to result in one compromise or another. (for example a dual-slot GPU means using on-board audio. The case you want doesn't come with a powerful enough PSU for your GPU, or maybe the MB only has integrated graphics. Want a silver AM2 case? You might be SOL. etc. ad nauseam.)

If they would have settled on layout standards for their MBs, cases, and PSUs to allow better customization it might have turned out a bit better. Rather, they are still constantly tweaking everything.

I loved my Shuttles, but they don't seem practical any longer. They were also almost the the only SFF's I thought were attractive looking. But as an enthusiast system builder, I want what I want without compromise on the inside too.

The price increases didn't really help either, but I'm happy to pay for something I want. I won't pay for a sacrifice.

 

[gorobei]

Originally posted by: nowayout99

I loved my Shuttles, but they don't seem practical any longer. They were also almost the the only SFF's I thought were attractive looking. But as an enthusiast system builder, I want what I want without compromise on the inside too.

The price increases didn't really help either, but I'm happy to pay for something I want. I won't pay for a sacrifice.

Shuttle SP35P2 Pro
http://www.vr-zone.com/article...2C_Better%3F/5448.html
Looks like they listened to somebody. P35 chipset, overclocks with all 4 dimm slots populated, some sort of custom cooling for chipsets, custom 400W psu with pcie 6pin [+12v 2 x 16A rails, probably has a pfc since there is no voltage select switch]. Onboard audio is the realtek 888, but there is room for a sound card if you dont use a double slot video card.

I'm not crazy about the two 60mm and one 90mm(?) fans at the rear. [Wish they went with a single 120mm.] No indication how the dedicated cpu exhaust fan works with custom coolers. [probably not enough room for a TR-ultima90]

seems to retail for $420. Assume to build an equivalent barebone is
$150(m/b) + $100(case) + $90(psu with custom wires) = roughly in the $350+ range.
so you're paying $70 for Shuttle to design and package it. Not a half bad deal.

 

[Tenet]

Yeah gorobei, the Shuttle SP35P2 Pro is a beaut. MWave has it for $401. I'd probably get that if:
a) Didn't just buy a new Microfly MX6 case w/600W modular psu for $100
b) had a bigger budget.

Right now I'm trying to decide which socket 775 mobo to get for it, and what cpu. Too bad mobo manufacturers aren't designing mATX mobos which cater to SFF enthusiasts in the Shuttle way, i.e. leave out the vga chipset, leave out the legacy ports, put more usb ports and e-sata, put the pcie16 slot near the outside edge of the board where the card can be cooled better, and enhance the overclocking capabilities. I'm sure a lot of people would pay extra to get that.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: VinDSL

Originally posted by: larciel
What happened to the [SFF] market? I believe decreasing price on laptops pushed SFF out of its niche. What daaya think?

You've judged wisely!

Everybody and his brother is buying lappys now!

End of story...

lol... i think thats half true. The mobile processors now are so fast, they almost keep up with desktop line processors. So a laptop is a better choice.

But i think why most people ditch the SFF route is because people are looking at quadcores, and overclocking when you build a SFF. Its a LanBox or a Media/Game Center.

Also G80 processors were very big and long, only a few SFF cases could make it. The ones that couldnt decided to shift there line over to HTPC cases. Hence why HTPC cases took off faster then SFF cases.

You add a quad overclocked + G80 in a SFF, and you'll get headaches, and a furnace hot enough for the devil himself to be comfortable with.

 

[Dadofamunky]

Originally posted by: gorobei

Shuttle SP35P2 Pro
http://www.vr-zone.com/article...2C_Better%3F/5448.html
Looks like they listened to somebody. P35 chipset, overclocks with all 4 dimm slots populated, some sort of custom cooling for chipsets, custom 400W psu with pcie 6pin [+12v 2 x 16A rails, probably has a pfc since there is no voltage select switch]. Onboard audio is the realtek 888, but there is room for a sound card if you dont use a double slot video card.

I took a long look at that one. It's a very attractive unit. eventually I decided that my next build really needed at least one more slot and a bit more flexibility in terms of layout. But that particular Shuttle is very nice. Sudhian has excellent forums on that specific unit and a pretty devoted crowd around those machines!