Deficit Shrinks???

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Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
61
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Oh... are we changing the subject now? Just admit you're wrong. It will do your soul good.
Not changing anything. Unless you're saying the CBO is full of liars.

But, go ahead and rail on Clinton for reining in the deficit while the Propagandist has obliterated any kind of spending controls.

Now you're trying to reframe the debate... Adding in things that weren't part of the original discussion. Instead of admitting you are wrong you're trying to start comparing one administration to another. Remember, this was about CLINTON and your fanciful notion of a surplus and my rock solid evidence that he grew the National Debt EVERY YEAR HE WAS IN OFFICE.... not about Dubbya's spending.

If you want to discuss Dubbya's fiscal performance I'm all for it. I bet we'll be in agreement more often than you'd think when it comes to his spending practices. If you want to discuss that, fine. But it's not part of this debate.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
The national debt and fiscal surpluses are two different animals. The debt continued to rise while a fiscal surplus was achieved for two years in a row.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
The surplus was an accounting trick.

Let's agree to disagree before someone kills us both.
Not in 1999 and 2000. When the Social Security surplus was taken out of the picture, a surplus still remained. But, that fiscal year surplus wasn't enough to reduce the national debt as the interest costs were still greater.
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,216
1
61
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
The surplus was an accounting trick.

Let's agree to disagree before someone kills us both.
Not in 1999 and 2000. When the Social Security surplus was taken out of the picture, a surplus still remained. But, that fiscal year surplus wasn't enough to reduce the national debt as the interest costs were still greater.

The interest is covered in the national budget. Any surplus would have gone to the principal. Which it didn't. Are we going to start again?
 

glugglug

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2002
5,340
1
81
10:1 odds the shrink is a "miscalculation" in order to have a positive press release and will be found out to be a lie within 3 months. Kind of like the unemployment numbers turn out to be consistently wrong and get corrected later each month.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: glugglug
10:1 odds the shrink is a "miscalculation" in order to have a positive press release and will be found out to be a lie within 3 months. Kind of like the unemployment numbers turn out to be consistently wrong and get corrected later each month.

100:1 odds you are ignorant. The same thing happened last year, the deficit was projected to be $521 billion and came in at $100 billion less.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: glugglug
10:1 odds the shrink is a "miscalculation" in order to have a positive press release and will be found out to be a lie within 3 months. Kind of like the unemployment numbers turn out to be consistently wrong and get corrected later each month.

100:1 odds you are ignorant. The same thing happened last year, the deficit was projected to be $521 billion and came in at $100 billion less.



And the year before as well...
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: glugglug
10:1 odds the shrink is a "miscalculation" in order to have a positive press release and will be found out to be a lie within 3 months. Kind of like the unemployment numbers turn out to be consistently wrong and get corrected later each month.

100:1 odds you are ignorant. The same thing happened last year, the deficit was projected to be $521 billion and came in at $100 billion less.



And the year before as well...


Nice talking points but this is the first year in 4 that the deficit is actually smaller than the previous (assuming it continues at this pace). Smaller than projections when still rising at rediculous rates (previous years before I get jumped) doesn't mean a whole damn lot.

Like I said...nice, but trillions added to our national debt. will take decades to catch up with, if ever.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: glugglug
10:1 odds the shrink is a "miscalculation" in order to have a positive press release and will be found out to be a lie within 3 months. Kind of like the unemployment numbers turn out to be consistently wrong and get corrected later each month.

100:1 odds you are ignorant. The same thing happened last year, the deficit was projected to be $521 billion and came in at $100 billion less.



And the year before as well...


Nice talking points but this is the first year in 4 that the deficit is actually smaller than the previous (assuming it continues at this pace). Smaller than projections when still rising at rediculous rates (previous years before I get jumped) doesn't mean a whole damn lot.

Like I said...nice, but trillions added to our national debt. will take decades to catch up with, if ever.



But the debt to gdp has not really changed, so we have not go that far behind...
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: glugglug
10:1 odds the shrink is a "miscalculation" in order to have a positive press release and will be found out to be a lie within 3 months. Kind of like the unemployment numbers turn out to be consistently wrong and get corrected later each month.

100:1 odds you are ignorant. The same thing happened last year, the deficit was projected to be $521 billion and came in at $100 billion less.



And the year before as well...


Nice talking points but this is the first year in 4 that the deficit is actually smaller than the previous (assuming it continues at this pace). Smaller than projections when still rising at rediculous rates (previous years before I get jumped) doesn't mean a whole damn lot.

Like I said...nice, but trillions added to our national debt. will take decades to catch up with, if ever.



But the debt to gdp has not really changed, so we have not go that far behind...

It hasn't?

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: glugglug
10:1 odds the shrink is a "miscalculation" in order to have a positive press release and will be found out to be a lie within 3 months. Kind of like the unemployment numbers turn out to be consistently wrong and get corrected later each month.

100:1 odds you are ignorant. The same thing happened last year, the deficit was projected to be $521 billion and came in at $100 billion less.



And the year before as well...


Nice talking points but this is the first year in 4 that the deficit is actually smaller than the previous (assuming it continues at this pace). Smaller than projections when still rising at rediculous rates (previous years before I get jumped) doesn't mean a whole damn lot.

Like I said...nice, but trillions added to our national debt. will take decades to catch up with, if ever.



But the debt to gdp has not really changed, so we have not go that far behind...

It hasn't?



Less than 5% and the debt to gdp has been going down for the last several months..
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
No no no... Have you read anything in this thread? Tax cuts do not decrease income to the government, they increase it. It worked for Kennedy. Under Reagan, tax revenues generated by the income tax doubled despite HUGE tax cuts. And the same thing is happening right now with Dubbya. The government is collecting MORE money after the tax cuts. ...
That is deceptive. Tax receipts have risen more or less steadily for most of the last century: after tax cuts, after tax increases, after no tax changes at all. This is a simple and obvious consequence of a growing economy and an inflating dollar. The valid question is how much did each tax cut reduce the rate of revenue growth.

The "tax cuts fuel growth" mantra has been faithfully parroted since the Reagonomics era, yet there is scant objective evidence it is true to any material extent, no data to objectively quantify the specific impact of cuts compared to the hundreds of other factors affecting the economy. Economists are divided, to say the least. In short, the tax cut religion is based on speculation and faith, not good science.

National debt, on the other hand, places a very real and measurable drain on our economy, and is beginning to show a psychological impact on investors, foreign and domestic. If the world continues to lose confidence in America's financial health, we may lose the investment we need to sustain growth. This poses a much greater risk to the U.S. economy than moderately higher taxes.
Are you really trying to suggest that taxation has no provable effect on the economy? :disgust:
Are you really trying to evade the fact that tax receipts have risen fairly steadily for the last hundred years or so, whether taxes were raised, cut, or left unchanged. Your claim that tax cuts were somehow responsible for increased tax receipts is speculative, to put it mildly.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,572
66
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
...
Are you really trying to evade the fact that tax receipts have risen fairly steadily for the last hundred years or so, whether taxes were raised, cut, or left unchanged. Your claim that tax cuts were somehow responsible for increased tax receipts is speculative, to put it mildly.
so if they raise regardless, then tax cuts are an obvious choice!

 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
...
Are you really trying to evade the fact that tax receipts have risen fairly steadily for the last hundred years or so, whether taxes were raised, cut, or left unchanged. Your claim that tax cuts were somehow responsible for increased tax receipts is speculative, to put it mildly.
so if they raise regardless, then tax cuts are an obvious choice!
Not at all. You conveniently deleted my quote addressing this:
  • That is deceptive. Tax receipts have risen more or less steadily for most of the last century: after tax cuts, after tax increases, after no tax changes at all. This is a simple and obvious consequence of a growing economy and an inflating dollar. The valid question is how much did each tax cut reduce the rate of revenue growth.

    The "tax cuts fuel growth" mantra has been faithfully parroted since the Reagonomics era, yet there is scant objective evidence it is true to any material extent, no data to objectively quantify the specific impact of cuts compared to the hundreds of other factors affecting the economy. Economists are divided, to say the least. In short, the tax cut religion is based on speculation and faith, not good science.

    National debt, on the other hand, places a very real and measurable drain on our economy, and is beginning to show a psychological impact on investors, foreign and domestic. If the world continues to lose confidence in America's financial health, we may lose the investment we need to sustain growth. This poses a much greater risk to the U.S. economy than moderately higher taxes.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,572
66
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
...
Are you really trying to evade the fact that tax receipts have risen fairly steadily for the last hundred years or so, whether taxes were raised, cut, or left unchanged. Your claim that tax cuts were somehow responsible for increased tax receipts is speculative, to put it mildly.
so if they raise regardless, then tax cuts are an obvious choice!
Not at all. You conveniently deleted my quote addressing this:
  • That is deceptive. Tax receipts have risen more or less steadily for most of the last century: after tax cuts, after tax increases, after no tax changes at all. This is a simple and obvious consequence of a growing economy and an inflating dollar. The valid question is how much did each tax cut reduce the rate of revenue growth.

    The "tax cuts fuel growth" mantra has been faithfully parroted since the Reagonomics era, yet there is scant objective evidence it is true to any material extent, no data to objectively quantify the specific impact of cuts compared to the hundreds of other factors affecting the economy. Economists are divided, to say the least. In short, the tax cut religion is based on speculation and faith, not good science.

    National debt, on the other hand, places a very real and measurable drain on our economy, and is beginning to show a psychological impact on investors, foreign and domestic. If the world continues to lose confidence in America's financial health, we may lose the investment we need to sustain growth. This poses a much greater risk to the U.S. economy than moderately higher taxes.
keep telling yourself that, its the liberal mantra that sounds good but doesnt hold water, the trueht is tax cuts ARE good for the economy, and 100 years of tax data prove this:
The major argument against the pro-growth tax policies being debated in Congress seems to be that the "rich" will benefit from them disproportionately. Whether a proposal involves limited change like capital gains tax relief or fundamental reform like the flat tax, opponents are quick to charge that the result would be to make the tax code less fair.

A key element of this debate is the question of what constitutes fairness. Supporters of tax reform believe that fairness means treating all taxpayers equally before the law; a wealthy person who makes 100 times more than another person, for example, should pay 100 times more in taxes. Others believe in equality of results rather than equality of opportunity. As such, they want government to impose increasingly punitive tax rates on higher-income taxpayers to facilitate income redistribution.

Yet battles over tax policy, including the one now taking place in Washington, D.C., involve more than the subjective meaning of fairness. Claims about incomes, tax burdens, and historical trends abound. In all too many cases, however, the assertions being made are contradicted by the readily available numbers. For example:

Myth: The rich don't pay their fair share.

Reality: According to IRS data 1, the top 1 percent of income earners pay nearly 29 percent of the income tax burden, the top 10 percent pay more than 59 percent, and the top 20 percent pay more than 74 percent. The bottom 50 percent of income earners, on the other hand, pay less than 5 percent of income taxes.

Myth: Lower tax rates mean the rich will pay less.

Reality: This outcome depends on how much tax rates are reduced. History indicates that the revenue-maximizing rate is less than 30 percent.2 In other words, when marginal rates are higher than 30 percent, the rich probably will pay more if rates are lowered. The reason? Because incentives to hide, shelter, and underreport income are reduced.

Consider what happened the three times this country enjoyed significant tax rate reductions:

1920s: The top tax rate fell from 73 percent to 25 percent, yet the rich (in those days, those earning $50,000 and up) went from paying 44.2 percent of the tax burden in 1921 to paying more than 78 percent in 1928.3
1960s: President John F. Kennedy slashed the top tax rate from 91 percent to 70 percent. In the ensuing three years, those making more than $50,000 annually saw their tax payments rise by 57 percent, and their share of the tax burden climbed from 11.6 percent to 15.1 percent.4
1980s: The Reagan years saw the top rate fall from 70 percent in 1980 to 28 percent in 1988. What happened to the rich? The top 1 percent went from shouldering 17.6 percent of the income tax burden in 1981 to paying 27.5 percent of the total in 1988. The top 10 percent saw their share of the burden climb from 48 percent in 1981 to over 57 percent in 1988.5

Myth: Only millionaires should care about the tax-the-rich issue.

Reality: Like fairness, "rich" is a subjective term. Some in Washington, D.C., think you are wealthy if your income rises much beyond $56,200. According to a Tax Foundation analysis of Internal Revenue Service (IRS) data, the cutoff point for the top 20 percent of tax returns is $56,262. This top quintile of income earners is also the group that those who oppose pro-growth tax policies commonly refer to as the "rich." It also includes the vast majority of small businesses that use the personal income tax instead of the corporate income tax. (See Chart 3.)

Myth: Lower tax rates mean the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Reality: President Kennedy was right: A rising tide lifts all boats. Census Bureau data show that earnings for all income classes tend to rise and fall in unison. In other words, economic policy either generates positive results, in which case all income classes benefit, or it causes stagnation and decline, in which case all groups suffer. As Chart 4 illustrates, the high tax policies of the late 1970s and early 1990s are associated with weak economic performance, while the low tax rates of the 1980s are correlated with rising incomes for all quintiles.

Myth: Lower tax rates will lead to a repeat of the failed policies of the 1980s.

Reality: In the 1980s, tax revenues climbed by 99.4 percent, and the economy enjoyed its longest peacetime expansion in history. This is the very antithesis of failure. (See Chart 6)

Myth: The average family's income declined during the Reagan years.

Reality: This assumes that President Ronald Reagan was responsible for the economy's miserable performance before he took office and after he left office. As Chart 7 shows, however, average family income rose substantially when the Reagan tax cuts were in effect. Incomes were falling at the end of the Carter Administration and before the tax cuts took effect, but that hardly can be blamed on President Reagan. Likewise, it is unfair to blame him for the reversal in family incomes that occurred when President George Bush raised taxes.

Myth: The middle class shrank during the Reagan years.8

Reality: This actually is true, but not for the reason critics suggest. The percentage of the total of households with middle-class incomes (defined as $15,000 to $50,000 in 1989 dollars) declined from 55 percent to 51 percent between 1980 and 1989, but this occurred because increasing numbers of Americans were climbing the ladder of success, not because middle-class households were becoming poorer. The percentage of households earning lower incomes also fell during the Reagan years, dropping from 27.5 percent in 1980 to 25.3 percent in 1989. This reduction in lower-income and middle-income households occurred because the over-$50,000 category expanded from 17.6 percent to 23.5 percent of households. (See Chart 8)

Myth: Lower tax rates deprive government of revenues needed to fund programs that help the poor.

Reality: During the past 30 years, the federal government has spent more than $5 trillion on means-tested programs. At best, this massive expenditure--in real terms, twice the U.S. cost of fighting World War II--had no effect on the poverty rate.9 Chart 9 shows that the dramatic increases in inflation-adjusted welfare spending have not led to reductions in the poverty rate. Instead, a growing body of social science data indicates that these programs have hindered reductions in poverty by undermining work incentives and subsidizing self-destructive behavior like having children out of wedlock.

Myth: Taxes should be higher for business and lower for people.

Reality: Businesses do not pay taxes; they only collect them. It is people--consumers, workers, or shareholders--who pay the taxes collected at the business level. This does not mean it is necessarily wrong to make business the collection point for taxes. For purposes of simplicity, all taxes on dividends, interest, and other forms of capital income would be collected at the business level under a flat tax, for example, and businesses would be responsible for collecting all taxes under a national retail sales tax. Supporters of tax reform, however, recognize that these taxes are still a burden that is borne by individuals.

Myth: Eliminating capital gains taxes, death taxes, the double taxation of dividends, or the double taxation of savings merely will create loopholes for the rich to exploit.

Reality: Existing provisions of the tax code dealing with capital have the effect of taxing income more than once. More specifically, they impose multiple layers of taxation on savings and investment. Defenders of the status quo can argue that these provisions are desirable. They can claim that the goal of income redistribution necessitates double taxation. They even can say there is nothing morally wrong or economically destructive about discriminating against taxpayers who save and invest. They cannot argue legitimately, however, that elimination of double taxation creates loopholes. Double taxation is a bias; adopting policies that tax income only once institutes fairness. (See Chart 10)

Myth: Lower taxes on capital--savings and investment--represent "trickle down" economics.

Reality: Because every economic theory, including Marxism, agrees that capital formation is the key to faster growth and higher standards of living, attaching odious labels to policies designed to reduce or eliminate the tax code's bias against savings and investment is particularly counterproductive. Chart 11 illustrates that increases in real wages over time are closely correlated with the amount of capital per worker. In other words, if workers are paid on the basis of what they produce, it makes sense to adopt tax policies that encourage investment in the tools, equipment, machinery, and technology that help workers produce more.

Conclusion

When politicians pit one group against another, the only winners are those who believe more power should be concentrated in the federal government in Washington, D.C. The economic evidence clearly demonstrates that the U.S. economy will produce significant income gains for all Americans so long as appropriate policies are followed. When politicians adopt punitive tax policies, however, the economy's performance stumbles, and the most likely victims are Americans on the lower rungs of the economic ladder.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
The president has nothing to do with the economy. Republicans told me so when the economy was in the toilet.

Besides, just add the cost of Iraq to the budget instead of hiding it off the books and you'll be right back where you were. Or worse.

 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,572
66
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: BBond
The president has nothing to do with the economy. Republicans told me so when the economy was in the toilet.

Besides, just add the cost of Iraq to the budget instead of hiding it off the books and you'll be right back where you were. Or worse.
Since when is the war cost not figured into the federal budget? Why has this lie been repeated over and over in this thread?

 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: BBond
The president has nothing to do with the economy. Republicans told me so when the economy was in the toilet.

Besides, just add the cost of Iraq to the budget instead of hiding it off the books and you'll be right back where you were. Or worse.
Since when is the war cost not figured into the federal budget? Why has this lie been repeated over and over in this thread?

Did the Bush administration include the cost of the war in its 2005 budget?

No. Instead, it plans to ask for funding in the form of supplemental appropriations from Congress in early 2005. This has led some critics to charge that the Bush administration is trying to hide the cost of the war from American voters. "We must give the troops what they need to be successful under increasingly risky conditions. And the president must tell the hard truth to the American people about how much longer our troops will remain in Iraq and how much more it will cost," House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi said May 5. The Bush administration says it can't estimate the costs because it does not know how many soldiers it will keep in Iraq and under what conditions they will serve. One solution: the Bush administration could have budgeted $30 billion to $50 billion--assuming the war would cost at least that much. "It was a policy decision" [not to], Holtz-Eakin says.

Link

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Department of Defense: Straight out of Rumsfeld's Mouth
Rumsfeld Explains Why War Costs Not in Main Budget Request
By Jim Garamone
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Feb. 16, 2005 ? Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld explained here today why the costs of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are not included in the president's annual budget request.

Rumsfeld gave the administration's reasoning during testimony before the House Armed Services Committee.

The administration sent a supplemental request to Congress Feb. 14 for almost $90 billion, most of which is earmarked for Iraq and Afghanistan operations. Aside from the supplemental request, the administration has asked Congress for $419.3 billion in Defense Department funding for fiscal 2006.

The secretary said a key part of the separate requests is simply the length of time it takes to put a budget together. It takes Pentagon officials up to a year to put together a budget request, he said. So, for example, the fiscal 2006 defense budget request has just been presented to Congress, while officials already are working on the fiscal 2007 request.

Once the Pentagon comes up with a proposal, it has to be cleared through the Office of Management and Budget. The president approves the request and then presents it to Congress. Congress can take eight to 10 months to pass the request, and "then it takes 12 months after that to execute it," the secretary said. This can mean a period of some two and a half years.

"In war, circumstances on the ground can change quickly, and what was not an urgent necessity at one point in a conflict can prove to be urgent in the next, as the enemy's strategy shifts and as new challenges arise," Rumsfeld said.

Officials prepare supplemental appropriations ? which used to be called emergency supplemental appropriations ? much closer to the time they are needed. The secretary said this allows for more accuracy in assessing actual costs and quicker access to the needed funds.


 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,572
66
91
www.bing.com
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
No. Instead, it plans to ask for funding in the form of supplemental appropriations from Congress in early 2005
Supplemental appropriations arent part of the overall budget? Changing a cost from one budget to the next doesnt change the total bottom line. Besides, appropriations dont count until the money is spent, which could be over a perioud of several years as the article points out.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
No. Instead, it plans to ask for funding in the form of supplemental appropriations from Congress in early 2005
Supplemental appropriations arent part of the overall budget? Changing a cost from one budget to the next doesnt change the total bottom line. Besides, appropriations dont count until the money is spent, which could be over a perioud of several years as the article points out.

The appropriatioins for Iraq aren't included in the budget. And we know they're spent over a period of years, having already spent $200 billion or so over the last two years.
 
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