Define "Fair" Taxation & Spending

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Hammer67

Member
Dec 12, 2005
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All that being said, as a fiscal conservative, I see no fair end to the current tax structure. I hope they consider alternative plans. Unfortunately we have become an entitlement society, dependant on government assistance and politicians are too scared to take any of that away for fear of losing votes.
 

Hammer67

Member
Dec 12, 2005
25
0
0
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Ah, the trickled on theory of economics. Its worked great in the 1980s (for the rich) and its working great now (for the rich.)

Actually, depending on your view and which economist you talk to, it worked quite well and the years of prosperity that CLinton inherited in his first term were the direct result of the "trickle down" theory under Reagan and Bush uno.
 

Meuge

Banned
Nov 27, 2005
2,963
0
0
Originally posted by: Hammer67
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Ah, the trickled on theory of economics. Its worked great in the 1980s (for the rich) and its working great now (for the rich.)

Actually, depending on your view and which economist you talk to, it worked quite well and the years of prosperity that CLinton inherited in his first term were the direct result of the "trickle down" theory under Reagan and Bush uno.

That's only if you buy an opinion, or listen to fox news. Stern, Wharton, Yale etc... teach it quite differently.
 

EatSpam

Diamond Member
May 1, 2005
6,423
0
0
Originally posted by: Hammer67
Originally posted by: EatSpam
Ah, the trickled on theory of economics. Its worked great in the 1980s (for the rich) and its working great now (for the rich.)

Actually, depending on your view and which economist you talk to, it worked quite well and the years of prosperity that CLinton inherited in his first term were the direct result of the "trickle down" theory under Reagan and Bush uno.

I'm pretty sure that "great economy" helped elect Clinton and lose the election for Bush I. All those votes for Perot were Repubs saying "Bush and his agenda sucks."
 

Hammer67

Member
Dec 12, 2005
25
0
0
Originally posted by: EatSpam
I'm pretty sure that "great economy" helped elect Clinton and lose the election for Bush I. All those votes for Perot were Repubs saying "Bush and his agenda sucks."

Well...not to go back to that whole thing...:laugh:

I can't say I disagree as there were a lot of other factors involved with Clinton winning, some valid. But, from an economical point of view, it has been argued for on both sides.

I, personally, don't think that a president has much effect on an economy at all, at least not during their brief stays in office. The economy is a roller coaster that has alwyas gone up and down no matter who is in office. Currently the economy seems to be doing just fine considering all the things that have happened in the past 4 years.

It's very cyclical.
 

wirelessenabled

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2001
2,190
41
91
Originally posted by: Stunt

I am against subsidies of all types, welfare (in current form), large military, government involvement in social issues, foriegn aid (economic aid much better).

...Discuss!

You forgot one of the biggest versions of the Gov subsidies, that for large Corps, huge farmers, rich households, etc.

Boeing in my home state of WA got $3.2 billion to not even promise that they would hire 1200 Washingtonians to build the 787 airliner; about $2.7 million per not even guaranteed job. The big Corp farms reap a windfall every year. Halliburton anyone? Bridge to nowhere?

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
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Originally posted by: zendari
Anything other than flat tax isn't the best and fairest taxform.

Ah, but take that logic to the end and you'd actually support a REgressive tax, not a flat one. Think about it, let's say I make $100k per year and you make $50k per year. I'm not Bill Gates, you aren't dirt poor. We could live in the same town, although you'd probably have a smaller house, we both drive to work at the same company, but I probably have a nicer car. Overall, though, we probably have about the same cost to society. We use roads, schools, and police and fire services equally. Yet even under a flat tax, I'd pay twice as much in taxes as you would. Is that "fair"? Our impact on society is about the same, why do I have twice as much obligation to contribute as you do, simply because I make more money? I can't really see a valid argument there, assuming you accept the idea that taxes are supposed to be "fair" in the sense that no one bears an undue burden in the tax system.

Of course that's not how the system works, even your flat tax system is based on relative costs of taxation. In my example, a flat tax assumes a dollar is worth about half as much to me as it is to you, so the perceived cost I have of paying $10,000 in taxes is the same perceived cost you have of paying $5,000 dollars in taxes. A flat tax is "fair" in this case because, while I pay more, each dollar I pay is worth less to me than it would be to you. So everyone paying 10% is fair, because 10% has the same impact on everyone, even though it represents a different amount of money to each person, because it represents the same relative amount.

Ah, but there's a hole in that logic. I remember arguing with my high school economics professor over this very topic. He made a flat tax argument in class, based on most of the traditional "fairness" arguments used by a lot of flat tax supporters and that I crudely outlined above. I suggested that there was a problem with that argument, the relative costs aren't accurate because the decline in the value of a dollar plotted against income isn't flat. Again going back to my example case, that $10,000 is actually worth LESS to me than the $5,000 is to you. This is because the basic costs of living don't rise at a flat rate. As income rises, the basic costs become less and less a percentage of income. Food, for example, is a significant expense to a poorer family, while it is a minor one to a rich family, even though the rich family almost certainly eats far better. This means that the more money you have, the more disposable income you have, so a flat tax rate means that the less money you have, the MORE taxes cost you.

A flat tax is based on an ideal world that simply doesn't exist. A truly fair tax system takes into account more variables than income. We might not be at that point now, but a system based around reality, instead of one number, seems like a better choice.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Then there are the Dissipates of the world who talk of a no tax, anarchy/capitalist society. I would have to argue that in such a regime there would indeed be a group of people (large or small) who would be severly oppressed creating an "unfair" system. Then consider the inherent value of currency, those who are rich are more likely to save and have far more disposible income to invest in items that likely will raise their net worth (houses, stocks, bonds, education); unlike the mainstream citizen who buys declining investments (vacations, rent, clothes, electronics, computers)...making money *progressively* easier to grow with wealth.

Those who are rich always have more to save and invest. But take a look at today's rich. Today's rich are rich because of business protections, tariffs, subsidies and regulations (which always hurt the little guy more than the well established 800 pound gorilla). Today's corporate elitist regime is a farce of capitalism. The outrageous distribution of wealth in the U.S. is a result of this regulation and protectionism. Without the state propagating the business class special interests, one could only become rich by working hard and competing on a fair basis. I can hardly believe for a second that the increased competition and possibilities for upward mobility that would result from the absence of a state would be less 'fair' than the crony pseudo-capitalism imposed by our plutocratic demogogic political class.

It is true that wealth tends to generate wealth and poverty tends to generate poverty, but there are reasons for that for which the state cannot fix. The only remedy is and always will be the free market. The only thing a 'progressive' income tax does is remove wealth from the free market that would go towards investments in new factors of production and jobs.

Wealth re-distribution schemes have always been complete failures, with the government being the ultimate winner as the monopolist middle man.
 

IronMentality

Senior member
Sep 16, 2004
228
0
0
All the corporation yadda yadda blah blah B.S. about them screwing everyone, leave that in front of the door - don't bring that to this discussion.

Rainsford: Let's say I am the guy making $50,000. You make $100,000. The tax rate is 10%. You pay $10,000, I pay $5,000. Any time socialist redistribution of wealth is tried, it doesn't work. This isn't a perfect world. If you paid a 15% rate ($7,500 to the government), and every successive rate increased, the poor would somehow net more money then they otherwise would've had?

I'd rather pay $5,000, and keep all that money myself. if I have kids, I would still qualify for child tax credits (which the richer well-off citizens are providing for poorer citizens) and push for a voucher system to give poorer Americans purchasing power to enjoy a higher quality of education (both children and adults).

The money left over? It stays in America. It's invested in America. We all benefit. (especially if American goods are purchased with that money as well)
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: IronMentality
All the corporation yadda yadda blah blah B.S. about them screwing everyone, leave that in front of the door - don't bring that to this discussion.

Rainsford: Let's say I am the guy making $50,000. You make $100,000. The tax rate is 10%. You pay $10,000, I pay $5,000. Any time socialist redistribution of wealth is tried, it doesn't work. This isn't a perfect world. If you paid a 15% rate ($7,500 to the government), and every successive rate increased, the poor would somehow net more money then they otherwise would've had?

I'd rather pay $5,000, and keep all that money myself. if I have kids, I would still qualify for child tax credits (which the richer well-off citizens are providing for poorer citizens) and push for a voucher system to give poorer Americans purchasing power to enjoy a higher quality of education (both children and adults).

The money left over? It stays in America. It's invested in America. We all benefit. (especially if American goods are purchased with that money as well)

I'm not talking about redistribution of wealth, I'm talking about "fair" taxation levels. If paying a 15% rate has the same impact on me as paying a 10% rate has on you, isn't that "fair"? I'm not into wealth redistribution, I'm just arguing for fair taxation, as measured by the relative cost to every person who pays taxes. And making taxes less of a burden for Bill Gates than some poor schmoe living in the inner city doesn't seem fair to me.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: IronMentality
All the corporation yadda yadda blah blah B.S. about them screwing everyone, leave that in front of the door - don't bring that to this discussion.

Why not? Does it offend you in some way?

 
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