Definition of equality

[Whaspe]

Equality has been something Western civilizations have been idealizing and pursuing for quite some time now. And in the name of equality....


Hockey mum wants co-ed locker room
Nine Defy Vatican's Ban on Ordination of Women
Same-sex marriage law passes

Often words like freedom and human rights also come up when looking at these issues. What I'm curious about is whether you can have equality and maintain differences at the same time. I don't see everyone jumping up and declaring that having separate washrooms for men and women to be unfair and a hindrance to equality. Does equality mean that everyone get's the same regardless or does it also incorporate the innate differences between men and women, homosexual and heterosexual, and religious and secular. My personal view is that all too easily people champion their cause with stating that they want equality or their human rights upheld. It's then too easy to accuse their opponents of being against these virtues. What are your thoughts?

 

[Orsorum]

That girl's cute. In about four years, I'd hit it.

That being said, I'll come back later and post something more substantive.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Orsorum
That girl's cute. In about four years, I'd hit it.

I wonder what people's responses would be if I said that about a 14 year old boy.

 

[aidanjm]

Originally posted by: Whaspe
Equality has been something Western civilizations have been idealizing and pursuing for quite some time now. And in the name of equality....


Hockey mum wants co-ed locker room
Nine Defy Vatican's Ban on Ordination of Women
Same-sex marriage law passes

Often words like freedom and human rights also come up when looking at these issues. What I'm curious about is whether you can have equality and maintain differences at the same time. I don't see everyone jumping up and declaring that having separate washrooms for men and women to be unfair and a hindrance to equality. Does equality mean that everyone get's the same regardless or does it also incorporate the innate differences between men and women, homosexual and heterosexual, and religious and secular. My personal view is that all too easily people champion their cause with stating that they want equality or their human rights upheld. It's then too easy to accuse their opponents of being against these virtues. What are your thoughts?

is that girl being supplied with changing facilities that are equivalent (to what the boys have access to)?

 

[Isla]

I'll tell you what I tell my children.

They are all EQUAL to me in terms of how much I love/value them.

However, they are naturally DIFFERENT from each other and wouldn't like it if I treated each of them the same. My son would not be amused if I gave him a pair of earrings and my daughters would say "WTH?" if I gave them Legos. (If my son wanted earring, he could have them, and if my daughters wanted Legos, that would be fine too--- but that's not them personally.)

The challenge is to find acceptable ways to show that you respect and value equally without trying to nonsensically treat everyone 'equally'. The goal is to be FAIR, which is not the same as "same".

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Orsorum
That girl's cute. In about four years, I'd hit it.

I wonder what people's responses would be if I said that about a 14 year old boy.

In an ideal society, I'd hope that the degree of acceptance/rejection of such a statement would be the same.

The reality, of course, is that any statements about homosexual desires are treated with revulsion in 2005 America. We can't even pretend to be an "equal" society.

 

[Whaspe]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Whaspe
Equality has been something Western civilizations have been idealizing and pursuing for quite some time now. And in the name of equality....


Hockey mum wants co-ed locker room
Nine Defy Vatican's Ban on Ordination of Women
Same-sex marriage law passes

Often words like freedom and human rights also come up when looking at these issues. What I'm curious about is whether you can have equality and maintain differences at the same time. I don't see everyone jumping up and declaring that having separate washrooms for men and women to be unfair and a hindrance to equality. Does equality mean that everyone get's the same regardless or does it also incorporate the innate differences between men and women, homosexual and heterosexual, and religious and secular. My personal view is that all too easily people champion their cause with stating that they want equality or their human rights upheld. It's then too easy to accuse their opponents of being against these virtues. What are your thoughts?

is that girl being supplied with changing facilities that are equivalent (to what the boys have access to)?

Some of the older facilities have only one change room and previously they would make a janitors room or something like that into a girl change room to comply with regulations. 14 is typically the age where atheletes start taking showers after the game, so now everyone changes together, boys must where boxers and girls boxers and a shirt until showers at which point they take turns (so they aren't showering together). However, they must also always have an adult present which ends up being the girls mother in alot of cases.

 

[Whaspe]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Orsorum
That girl's cute. In about four years, I'd hit it.

I wonder what people's responses would be if I said that about a 14 year old boy.

In an ideal society, I'd hope that the degree of acceptance/rejection of such a statement would be the same.

The reality, of course, is that any statements about homosexual desires are treated with revulsion in 2005 America. We can't even pretend to be an "equal" society.

Too true, there shouldn't be negative hatred shown to gays, but rather respect even if you disagree with their lifestyle. The question becomes, is it necessary for gays to have marriage rights in order to accomplish that. The majors arguments that I have heard in support of gay marriage would be validation of their lifestyle, and wishing to receive proper tax benefits and other perks of living in a commited relationship. But does marriage give this? It's true that in Canada they now receive proper tax/legal benefits but I would think that so far allowing gay marriage has only polarized this nation and solidified many peoples bigoted thoughts. The major arguments for the girl wanting to change with her boy teammates is that up to this point they had; hormonal changes shouldn't stop this. And that she would miss out on the comraderie and bonding that goes on. However, should we ignore what boys turn into during this stage of their lives? Or the developemental changes going on inside her? Is there an age where her parents and her will not want her changing with the boys?

In both cases, I wonder when the differences are taken into account enough that while maintaining fairness and respect we also recognize that we're not identical and that treating the situation as if we are glosses over the real problem/situation.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: aidanjm
is that girl being supplied with changing facilities that are equivalent (to what the boys have access to)?

a valid question but i think at this age a girl shouldn't be in the locker room with boys (but if the girls lockerroom is a closet like someone mentioned that should certainly be remedied). having played sports through all of my school years i honestly cannot imagine a female being in the lockeroom with a bunch of guys. there would be a lawsuit in no time and i wager the females involved could be put through some very serious mental and possibly physical anguish.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Orsorum
That girl's cute. In about four years, I'd hit it.

I wonder what people's responses would be if I said that about a 14 year old boy.

since so many people associate homosexuality with sexual deviance they would assume you are a child molester. another good question would be if it was a 14 year old boy and you were a woman saying that....

 

[Stunt]

Whaspe, I agree there should be lines drawn when it comes to equality. It all comes down to being treated the same as any other person in a similar situation. In reference to the three examples you have given, one must address each issue individually...so here's my take:

a) Girl in guy's change room. She is not being treated any differently in the sense that she can listen to pregame/intermission/postgame coaching and comments. Her changing in front of guys has no impact on the team other than perhaps putting her in a situation where guys may mistreat her. At that age, guys have raging hormones and this will do nothing but set the stage for some undesirable situations. The mother has yet to give a valid reason why there is a rights issue.

b) Women are human beings, no different than men other than sexual organs. To restrict their priesthood is wrong, while i think this should be a top down sort of policy, sometimes it takes a few rebels to actually get the ball rolling. If the Catholic Church is flexable enough to recognize evolution, it most certainly can allow equality of women. I see no valid argument against women becoming priests.

c) Gay Marriage is a big issue these days, and I'm surprised people haven't done more to reduce the polarity in the matter. Many societies are torn right down the middle on the issue and yet politicians feel the need to appeal to the polarity. Personally I think gay relationships are just as valid as hetero relationships, yet are not recognized as such (in the states at least). A gay couple should be entitled to the same benefits as any other straight couple. The thing people have to start realizing is that marriage handed out by the state is no longer a religious union, the vast majority of marriages are un-religious and many end in divorce. Preserving/Saving the term marriage is not going to be helped by restricting gays, but taking the term marriage out of state affairs. It was a mistake to allow marriage become encorperated by the state, and the state should recognize all relationships as unions to address property rights for all relations (gays, straights, common-laws). Marriage should be a religious ceremony for devout Christians, this is the only way to actually save the term marriage.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Isla
I'll tell you what I tell my children.

They are all EQUAL to me in terms of how much I love/value them.

However, they are naturally DIFFERENT from each other and wouldn't like it if I treated each of them the same. My son would not be amused if I gave him a pair of earrings and my daughters would say "WTH?" if I gave them Legos. (If my son wanted earring, he could have them, and if my daughters wanted Legos, that would be fine too--- but that's not them personally.)

The challenge is to find acceptable ways to show that you respect and value equally without trying to nonsensically treat everyone 'equally'. The goal is to be FAIR, which is not the same as "same".

Level-headed Isla shines through again.

You're exactly right. There's treating one another fairly or equally but then there's the ridiculous PC stance of everyone should be exactly equal.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Isla
I'll tell you what I tell my children.

They are all EQUAL to me in terms of how much I love/value them.

However, they are naturally DIFFERENT from each other and wouldn't like it if I treated each of them the same. My son would not be amused if I gave him a pair of earrings and my daughters would say "WTH?" if I gave them Legos. (If my son wanted earring, he could have them, and if my daughters wanted Legos, that would be fine too--- but that's not them personally.)

The challenge is to find acceptable ways to show that you respect and value equally without trying to nonsensically treat everyone 'equally'. The goal is to be FAIR, which is not the same as "same".

Level-headed Isla shines through again.

You're exactly right. There's treating one another fairly or equally but then there's the ridiculous PC stance of everyone should be exactly equal.

i'm not arguing with you but different people have different viewpoints on what "fair" is in a given situation. i guess you can't make everyone happy all the time though...

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Stunt

b) Women are human beings, no different than men other than sexual organs. To restrict their priesthood is wrong, while i think this should be a top down sort of policy, sometimes it takes a few rebels to actually get the ball rolling. If the Catholic Church is flexable enough to recognize evolution, it most certainly can allow equality of women. I see no valid argument against women becoming priests.

But also no grounds for forcing the church to do so - you can't rewrite scripture or doctrine with legislation, whether the issue is women priests, villification of gays, or anything else. If the women in the Catholic Church come to realize they are treated as second class citizens, they will either fight for change (as these women are doing, successfully or not) or simply find/create a new Church that reflects their values.

 

[Stunt]

Very true. State legislation of female priests is wrong, if the church does so on its own merits, like they have done with gay marriage in some places, that is perfectly fine. (even if it is against church law)

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Orsorum
That girl's cute. In about four years, I'd hit it.

I wonder what people's responses would be if I said that about a 14 year old boy.

About the same. It would tell me what's really on your mind. The difference is gender, but the bottom line is sex. And isn't sex the way we hope to merge with the other in unity?

More to the topic, what are you (the OP) feeling? What is the point you are trying to make? Are you not expressing a 'fear' and a feeling that we are 'loosing something you value'?

Seems like you see change and want to hang on to the status quo, that you have moral judgments you seek to bolster, no?

Once you identify what it is you fear, you can begin to examine the assumptions as to why. You will find they unexamined and simply assumed, I think? Then you can ask how you managed to acquire them, to feel what it is you really feel. That won't be easy, but it can set you free from manipulation by your unconscious. It can free you from attachment and open the door to your heart. In this way you can maybe pour on the world what you are hoping it will give you and cannot. One fills oneself by emptying out because at your core there is only the good and the light.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Orsorum
That girl's cute. In about four years, I'd hit it.

I wonder what people's responses would be if I said that about a 14 year old boy.

About the same. It would tell me what's really on your mind. The difference is gender, but the bottom line is sex. And isn't sex the way we hope to merge with the other in unity?

More to the topic, what are you (the OP) feeling? What is the point you are trying to make? Are you not expressing a 'fear' and a feeling that we are 'loosing something you value'?

Seems like you see change and want to hang on to the status quo, that you have moral judgments you seek to bolster, no?

Once you identify what it is you fear, you can begin to examine the assumptions as to why. You will find they unexamined and simply assumed, I think? Then you can ask how you managed to acquire them, to feel what it is you really feel. That won't be easy, but it can set you free from manipulation by your unconscious. It can free you from attachment and open the door to your heart. In this way you can maybe pour on the world what you are hoping it will give you and cannot. One fills oneself by emptying out because at your core there is only the good and the light.

psychology major?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Isla
I'll tell you what I tell my children.

They are all EQUAL to me in terms of how much I love/value them.

However, they are naturally DIFFERENT from each other and wouldn't like it if I treated each of them the same. My son would not be amused if I gave him a pair of earrings and my daughters would say "WTH?" if I gave them Legos. (If my son wanted earring, he could have them, and if my daughters wanted Legos, that would be fine too--- but that's not them personally.)

The challenge is to find acceptable ways to show that you respect and value equally without trying to nonsensically treat everyone 'equally'. The goal is to be FAIR, which is not the same as "same".

Level-headed Isla shines through again.

You're exactly right. There's treating one another fairly or equally but then there's the ridiculous PC stance of everyone should be exactly equal.

i'm not arguing with you but different people have different viewpoints on what "fair" is in a given situation. i guess you can't make everyone happy all the time though...

Well, fair would have different meanings in different contexts but, everyone should have the same opportunity to succeed in any given environment. What they do with those opportunities is up to them.

 

[piasabird]

I dont think a coed shower is such a good idea. This has nothing to do with equality. It is just common sense not to put a bunch of horny guys and one girl in a coed locker room.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I dont think a coed shower is such a good idea. This has nothing to do with equality. It is just common sense not to put a bunch of horny guys and one girl in a coed locker room.

i agree - there is no way i could have handled that.

 

[rustynails]

:beer: ~rpg

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I dont think a coed shower is such a good idea. This has nothing to do with equality. It is just common sense not to put a bunch of horny guys and one girl in a coed locker room.

I saw that in a movie once, and she seemed pretty okay with it *snicker*

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I dont think a coed shower is such a good idea. This has nothing to do with equality. It is just common sense not to put a bunch of horny guys and one girl in a coed locker room.

Right, based on the fact that low self-esteem men look for any excuse to act out their frustrations. It was her fault because she tempted me.

Golly, every decent Christian Republican young man of character should be able to easily pass that test.

 

[zendari]

It's not Christian Republicans who believe in consequence free state subsidized promiscuous sexual activity amongst anyone and everyone.

I thought the whole feminist equality movement died when they realized they'd have to be eligible for a draft.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: zendari
It's not Christian Republicans who believe in consequence free state subsidized promiscuous sexual activity amongst anyone and everyone.

I thought the whole feminist equality movement died when they realized they'd have to be eligible for a draft.

Women should fight the wars they start.