Question DEGRADING Raptor lake CPUs

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Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
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I noticed some reports about degrading i9 13900K and KF processors.

I experienced this problem myself, when I ran it at 6 GHz, light load (3 threads of Cinebench), at acceptable temperature and non extreme voltage. After only few minutes it crashed, and then it could not run even at stock setting without bumping the voltage a bit.

I was thinking about the cause for this and I believe the problem is, that people do not appreciate, how high these frequencies are and that the real comfortable frequency limit of these CPUs is probably at something like 5500 or 5600 MHz. These CPUs are made on a same process (possibly improved somehow) on which Alder lake CPUs were made. See the frequencies 12900KS runs at. The frequency improvement of the new process tweak may not be so high as some people presume.

Those 13900K CPUs are probably highly binned to be able to find those which contain some cores which can reliably run at 5800 MHz. Some of the 13900K probably have little/no OC reserve left and pushing them will cause them to degrade/break.

The conclusion for me is that the best you can do to your 13900K or 13900KF is to disable the 5800 MHz peak, which will allow you to offset the voltage lower, and then set all core maximal frequency to some comfortable level, I guess the maximum level could be 5600 MHz. With lowered voltage this frequency should be gentler to the processor than running it at original 5500 MHz at higher voltage. You can also run it at lower frequencies, allowing for even higher voltage drop, but then the CPU is slowly loosing its sense (unless you want some high efficiency CPU intended for heavy multithread loads).

Running it with some power consumption limit dependent on your cooling solution to keep the CPU at sensible temperature will help too for sure.
 
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Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
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So the Gigabyte F12f bios (Elite AX Z790 board) did not work for me, the microcode went back with the older bios. I just realised we are slightly off topic here, unless the reason for the crashes is the CPU degradation, but I doubt it, I did not stress it too much.
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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IF microcode 0x129 fixes the issue, then -1.1% is a solid trade for stability.
I won't argue that. But one test that we are not even sure if it includes the bios fixes, and no real test as to stability , I will wait until its proved before I believe anything Intel says.

Edit: @Kocicak said in post http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/degrading-raptor-lake-cpus.2608723/post-41273999

That he had the bios update, the microcode update and it sill rebooted while browsing. He also had the memory set down,

It will take a lot to convince me this is the fix. I stand by my post in reply 456 above.
 
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positivedoppler

Golden Member
Apr 30, 2012
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1.3V, 1.4V, or 1.5V I have no idea since unlike the old days cpus no longer print the operating voltage on the cpu itself. Yes Tech is awesome though. Just a dork having fun in his garage, kitchen, living room etc... super low production cost and be seems to love restoring old computers. So he base the 1.3V on the bios red warning
 
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Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
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The Australian guy mentions disabling e-cores, which is stupid IMO. Other than that he concluded that these CPUs are not good for more than 5 GHz operation, I think it for some high intensity usage could be even lower.

Any fix that does not decrease frequencies and voltage will not fix anything.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
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I was going to post that vid ^ Gigabyte is part of the problem but as he notes, it's Intel's fault for letting them do it. He is really frustrated with the whole mess, and points out users should not have to fix this stuff in the UEFI.

Most prebuilts will never get updated since it isn't being pushed through the OS updates.
 

KompuKare

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2009
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I was going to post that vid ^ Gigabyte is part of the problem but as he notes, it's Intel's fault for letting them do it. He is really frustrated with the whole mess, and points out users should not have to fix this stuff in the UEFI.

Most prebuilts will never get updated since it isn't being pushed through the OS updates.
He keeps saying that the whole Intel settings are needlessly complex making me wonder if the boost tables and TVB were written by totally different teams at Intel?

Guess the good news is that this microcode is not one of those you cannot revert if each profile has its own. The bad news is that this isn't some security update where home users can say to themselves not relevant to me so I'd rather not apply this and keep my 5% performance. Yet performance robbing security updates can usually not be reverted especially on OEM systems whereas one which is supposed to prevent permanent damage to your CPU can be reverted.
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,508
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This showed up in my YT feed today after watching reviews on the 9700x...not sure what to make of it. Sort of amusing but can't tell if its serious or just sarcasm.

Starts around 2min after intro clips.


From the video description:

"Its all in the video with this one people may hate or be salty but well. FAIR USE at its finest we can all have our options I guess but only if we stop getting feed the wrong Info and say no to the hype train yes we understand Hardware is failing @ a alarming rate but they are the reason behind it whilst the last decade they have been slowly but surely egging on the company's ego breaking balls where possible "

It seems like he is blaming tech tubers for egging on intel to overclock? It is certainly one way to look at things.
 

Kryohi

Member
Nov 12, 2019
42
92
91
Its cumulatively like 1.1%. If it wasn't measured for you, you'd never be able to tell the difference in your actual use.
How so? The average is over all kinds of benchmarks, including a lot of fully multicore ones, which were expected to be fine. But what if a customer specifically bought RPL for numpy or crypto single core performance? -8% is basically worth a generation of performance these days. In their actual use, they would definitely see the regression.

I'm not trying to say Intel is doomed, Raptor Lake has become worthless, etc. Simply saying that some people who bought RPL for certain uses are definitely getting ripped off by the whole thing, even with no stability or RMA issues. Saying that 1.1% loss of performance is within margin of error is hiding that some losses are definitely there.
 
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evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,012
626
126
This is infuriating. I decided to finally upgrade my old haswell NAS server to a raptor lake i7-13700K and also my desktop to another build with the same cpu a few months back. Also have a 12th gen as well. I'm going to have to live the next few years knowing that these machines might go unstable and s@#$ the bed.
 
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Jul 27, 2020
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I decided to finally upgrade my old haswell NAS server to a raptor lake i7-13700K
If it's mostly videos on that NAS server, I guess you can live with that. But if it's anything critical (files your career/profession/business depends on), you really should create another NAS with a more reliable CPU, Alder Lake or Ryzen or maybe a previous gen cheap Xeon/Epyc (Markfw has one in FS/FT).
 
Reactions: Ranulf

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,012
626
126
If it's mostly videos on that NAS server, I guess you can live with that. But if it's anything critical (files your career/profession/business depends on), you really should create another NAS with a more reliable CPU, Alder Lake or Ryzen or maybe a previous gen cheap Xeon/Epyc (Markfw has one in FS/FT).
TBH I might just keep my haswell nas going and just use the 13th gen for all my home automation / security camera stuff that i was planning on doing. waste of electricity i guess.
 

del42sa

Member
May 28, 2013
99
114
106
great, now we know that the repair has no effect on performance, now we just have to find out if it has an effect on the premature death of affected CPUs and their degradation, or is it just a blank shot again .....
 
Jul 27, 2020
19,595
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I was testing out my 12700K in Intel XTU, trying to achieve higher ST score in CPU-Z. I think it went up to 851 with maybe 5.2 or 5.3 GHz. Afterwards, the RX 6800 developed glitching (weird texture flashing) in Quake 2 RTX, even with a restart. It took some time for the glitching to go away. Someone said that PCI Express connectivity is affected when the processor goes above 5 GHz. I believe that now.
 
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