Question DEGRADING Raptor lake CPUs

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Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
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I noticed some reports about degrading i9 13900K and KF processors.

I experienced this problem myself, when I ran it at 6 GHz, light load (3 threads of Cinebench), at acceptable temperature and non extreme voltage. After only few minutes it crashed, and then it could not run even at stock setting without bumping the voltage a bit.

I was thinking about the cause for this and I believe the problem is, that people do not appreciate, how high these frequencies are and that the real comfortable frequency limit of these CPUs is probably at something like 5500 or 5600 MHz. These CPUs are made on a same process (possibly improved somehow) on which Alder lake CPUs were made. See the frequencies 12900KS runs at. The frequency improvement of the new process tweak may not be so high as some people presume.

Those 13900K CPUs are probably highly binned to be able to find those which contain some cores which can reliably run at 5800 MHz. Some of the 13900K probably have little/no OC reserve left and pushing them will cause them to degrade/break.

The conclusion for me is that the best you can do to your 13900K or 13900KF is to disable the 5800 MHz peak, which will allow you to offset the voltage lower, and then set all core maximal frequency to some comfortable level, I guess the maximum level could be 5600 MHz. With lowered voltage this frequency should be gentler to the processor than running it at original 5500 MHz at higher voltage. You can also run it at lower frequencies, allowing for even higher voltage drop, but then the CPU is slowly loosing its sense (unless you want some high efficiency CPU intended for heavy multithread loads).

Running it with some power consumption limit dependent on your cooling solution to keep the CPU at sensible temperature will help too for sure.
 
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Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,020
3,480
136
Uh, or you could buy a 12700k or 12900k for less money and get the same performance in many programs. Then you don't have to reinstall windows etc..
I get the good pricing on the 12700K and 12900K but they require quite a bit more Vcore than the Raptors, I've had both and did extensive v/f testing. Also the larger L2 on the Raptors is good for a few percent IPC. If I stay with the same socket, which is likely given the small performance delta among everything available now, it'll be a 14600K or 14700K I'm pretty sure. I do appreciate all of the advice though.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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That one is more likely to hit thermal throttling so you will need to upgrade your cooling. This is the same reason why 14900KS disappointed me immensely. What's the point of hitting north of 6 GHz if it immediately throttles and unable to sustain any of that performance?
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
7,062
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I get the good pricing on the 12700K and 12900K but they require quite a bit more Vcore than the Raptors, I've had both and did extensive v/f testing. Also the larger L2 on the Raptors is good for a few percent IPC. If I stay with the same socket, which is likely given the small performance delta among everything available now, it'll be a 14600K or 14700K I'm pretty sure.
I don't understand this, the 12900K offers the same or better performance as 14600K, L2 be damned. The 14600K will also require more Vcore than 14900K, it's not a top bin anymore. I can understand if you're curious about Arrow Lake for example, I would be too if I wanted to spend time on a new build, but the arguments you're using to get yourself there are very weird considering the context. If your aim is to have fun with new builds then please state so, so others stop coming up with practical solutions to your stated problems.

Get Arrow Lake, you'll have plenty of time to build the system and decide if you're willing to keep or return. Normally I don't encourage leaning into the return window, but given the awkward state LGA1851 is today, I would argue it's fair game.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,020
3,480
136
I don't understand this, the 12900K offers the same or better performance as 14600K, L2 be damned. The 14600K will also require more Vcore than 14900K, it's not a top bin anymore. I can understand if you're curious about Arrow Lake for example, I would be too if I wanted to spend time on a new build, but the arguments you're using to get yourself there are very weird considering the context. If your aim is to have fun with new builds then please state so, so others stop coming up with practical solutions to your stated problems.

Get Arrow Lake, you'll have plenty of time to build the system and decide if you're willing to keep or return. Normally I don't encourage leaning into the return window, but given the awkward state LGA1851 is today, I would argue it's fair game.
Okay, here's what's going on in my mind regarding this comparison.
I have a local MC so the 14600K is $40 less than the 12900K.

12900K tops out at 5.2GHz, 14600K at 5.3GHz. But the Raptor will do the same frequency with less volts and heat. I had a 14600K, they hit 5.5 easy if you want. Raptor is on a better more efficient higher clocking process than Alder.

So you lose 2 P cores with 14600K but gain a bit back in L2, thermals, and price. It's a close one, I'll give you that!

I've been torn about what to do here for a while, I'll admit that. I don't want to lead anyone here on so I'm not meaning to do that. When Intel sends the return label I"ll have to do something. Honestly I'm constantly bouncing among three options. 265K build, which I could do at MC for the cost of the reimbursement. Just pick up a 14600K or 14700K at MC and be done with it. Or a 9900X build.

I hate that Arrow Lake is borked in some apps, Photoshop, Office, gaming,... and is dead end socket-wise. I'm concerned about cooling with Zen 5. Not thermal loads but temps I can't control on air. As I write this it's more replace the raptor or go Zen 5.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
5,065
5,389
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Okay, here's what's going on in my mind regarding this comparison.
I have a local MC so the 14600K is $40 less than the 12900K.

12900K tops out at 5.2GHz, 14600K at 5.3GHz. But the Raptor will do the same frequency with less volts and heat. I had a 14600K, they hit 5.5 easy if you want. Raptor is on a better more efficient higher clocking process than Alder.

So you lose 2 P cores with 14600K but gain a bit back in L2, thermals, and price. It's a close one, I'll give you that!

I've been torn about what to do here for a while, I'll admit that. I don't want to lead anyone here on so I'm not meaning to do that. When Intel sends the return label I"ll have to do something. Honestly I'm constantly bouncing among three options. 265K build, which I could do at MC for the cost of the reimbursement. Just pick up a 14600K or 14700K at MC and be done with it. Or a 9900X build.

I hate that Arrow Lake is borked in some apps, Photoshop, Office, gaming,... and is dead end socket-wise. I'm concerned about cooling with Zen 5. Not thermal loads but temps I can't control on air. As I write this it's more replace the raptor or go Zen 5.
Are you in a decision deathloop? Take a complete break from thinking about it.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,020
3,480
136
Are you in a decision deathloop? Take a complete break from thinking about it.
I'm going to build a Zen 5 rig once the 9950X gets back in stock at MC. The mobo and RAM are on the way.

Since I'll be sending my 14900K back I decided to "live on the edge" for a bit and I set everything to auto in the BIOS except for a 200W power limit because that is about all my air cooler can comfortably handle. You know what? When they work a 14900K running full tilt is very performant in day-to-day tasks. What I mean by that is that most tasks don't fully saturate the cores so for example when I'm updating some files in Studio One the CPU will be cranking along at 5.7GHz all cores. Or just opening and closing apps, things requiring quick bursts of compute. On the downside I'm seeing Vcore over 1.4V and I wonder how long the CPU will survive? Not that is matter really at this point for me. If there really is a "non defective" 14900K that can run stock then outside of the high power use/thermals, it IS a fast CPU.
 

lakedude

Platinum Member
Mar 14, 2009
2,774
524
126
Just pick up a 14600K or 14700K
Aren't those still among the potentially problematic RL chips?

Are you figuring you will be safe starting from scratch and running with some updates or limits in place?

Did you not really need the 14900k to begin with?

For what it is worth I think most enthusiasts are a bit too CPU happy, buying more than they need (if you know you have a specific need for more CPU grunt I'm not talking about you). I once did an experiment and bought a laptop with the best GPU and fastest storage but the slowest CPU available in that model and I was never so happy. Been saving money on CPUs ever since.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,460
12,309
136
Aren't those still among the potentially problematic RL chips?
Yes. Theoretically, a brand new Raptor Lake going into a fully-updated board shouldn't develop problems, or if it does it'll be a slower degradation process than before. The jury's still out on how all the new power profiles and microcode updates affect the lifespan and behavior of a Raptor Lake.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,020
3,480
136
Aren't those still among the potentially problematic RL chips?

Are you figuring you will be safe starting from scratch and running with some updates or limits in place?

Did you not really need the 14900k to begin with?

For what it is worth I think most enthusiasts are a bit too CPU happy, buying more than they need (if you know you have a specific need for more CPU grunt I'm not talking about you). I once did an experiment and bought a laptop with the best GPU and fastest storage but the slowest CPU available in that model and I was never so happy. Been saving money on CPUs ever since.
Yes I am definitely CPU happy. I could easily live with half the CPU I have now. It was just a few years ago I was using Haswell day-to-day. But this is what we do right? I mean live on the bleeding edge of technology and then complain when something doesn't work? Just kidding of course but you know what I mean. It's for work, it's for play, it's for fun.
 

poke01

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2022
3,260
4,480
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Yes I am definitely CPU happy. I could easily live with half the CPU I have now. It was just a few years ago I was using Haswell day-to-day. But this is what we do right? I mean live on the bleeding edge of technology and then complain when something doesn't work? Just kidding of course but you know what I mean. It's for work, it's for play, it's for fun.
I get you, I like to live on the bleeding edge too. More specifically for GPUs in my case. Excited for BMG, RDNA4 and Blackwell. I can’t afford all three architectures so I might get BMG for a side rig. Our hobbies are expensive huh…
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,020
3,480
136
Pat finally paid the price for his complacency: https://www.intc.com/news-events/pr...tel-announces-retirement-of-ceo-pat-gelsinger

Though it only means he will be a few millions poorer and now gets to spend all his time fishing or whatever.

He's probably relieved that he no longer has to dance on stage.
Intel seems like a sailboat in irons. So I guess it's back to business as usual? Put a finance guy in charge so the next guy can clear out as much treasure, and on and on, until the ship finally sinks beneath the waves forever. Shouldn't be long now. Time to short Intel.

As usual there is no useful information in that press release except who is out and who is in.
Why, why exactly is Pat out? What bad decisions did he make and what could have been done differently during the time he was there. It's always hard to see a once great and innovative company slowly wither away.
 
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Jul 27, 2020
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What bad decisions did he make
His reactive decisions weren't quick enough.

Took too long to demote Raja Koduri (shouldn't have promoted him in the first place if he had taken a more hands-on approach).

Took too long to address Raptor Lake contamination issues.

Empowered his customer service personnel to ruin the customer experience by trying to blame their customers for the Raptor Lake issues (oh maybe you haven't chosen the correct settings in BIOS???)

Refusing to initiate a product recall for Raptor Lake in an attempt to boost customer confidence in Intel products.

Not taking any decisions to release a tool to identify CPUs with degradation issues so everyone with a possibly affected CPU can't do anything other than RMA or wait and pray.

Took too long to realize that trying to deliver Intel 4 based MTL products through hot lots would be too costly.

Fired actual engineers instead of managers.

Probably the worst CPU launch in history with Arrow Lake, where retailers are now forced to run bundle promotions to sell motherboards.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,020
3,480
136
His reactive decisions weren't quick enough.

Took too long to demote Raja Koduri (shouldn't have promoted him in the first place if he had taken a more hands-on approach).

Took too long to address Raptor Lake contamination issues.

Empowered his customer service personnel to ruin the customer experience by trying to blame their customers for the Raptor Lake issues (oh maybe you haven't chosen the correct settings in BIOS???)

Refusing to initiate a product recall for Raptor Lake in an attempt to boost customer confidence in Intel products.

Not taking any decisions to release a tool to identify CPUs with degradation issues so everyone with a possibly affected CPU can't do anything other than RMA or wait and pray.

Took too long to realize that trying to deliver Intel 4 based MTL products through hot lots would be too costly.

Fired actual engineers instead of managers.

Probably the worst CPU launch in history with Arrow Lake, where retailers are now forced to run bundle promotions to sell motherboards.
I'll play devil's advocate.
Fire Raja, oh wait he's an engineer, don't fire engineers or fire engineers?
What's the issue with Raptor Lake exactly? I'm returning my 3rd but it still works fine, just needs more volts than 3 months ago. I don't even know if Intel knows.
What are hot lots? Low yields lots?
Was Arrow Lake Pat or was that started before him?
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
26,746
15,785
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Its simple to me, until the dust clears, don't buy any Intel CPU, as if it does work, I may not get an RMA, and from all the evidence, I can't buy one better than a 9950x anyway,
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Fire Raja, oh wait he's an engineer, don't fire engineers or fire engineers?
I still doubt that he's an engineer. Maybe he once was in his early career but he became more of a manager of engineers and he wasn't a particularly good one since he found out too late that his GPU needed a lot more effort with drivers. I think that was very surprising. A good engineer would've known that during the design phase and either tried to make changes to prevent needing crazy software engineering effort on drivers or put together a crack team of driver writers together to kill the possibility of failing. A manager tries to foresee all the problems that could arise and then takes steps to mitigate them. His Alchemist post-launch comments made it seem like he had ZERO idea that drivers could destroy his GPU's success or he just plain lied and spent years and years in an effort to collect as much cash in his bank account as possible <<< more likely possibility if you ask me.

What's the issue with Raptor Lake exactly? I'm returning my 3rd but it still works fine, just needs more volts than 3 months ago. I don't even know if Intel knows.
I haven't owned anything beyond a 12700K so don't know from experience. But there seem to be plenty of online accounts of crashes on Raptor Lake CPUs, both desktop and mobile. One reason could definitely be heat density since at least one user here complained that his 13600K was not easy to cool. Maybe the lack of proper heat dissipation is causing the transistors or data pathways to degrade earlier than expected.

What are hot lots? Low yields lots?
maddie gave an excellent description of that.

Was Arrow Lake Pat or was that started before him?
Regardless of when it was started, if I were him, I would've tried to understand the problems with Meteor Lake and either demanded the engineers to solve the core issue or shifted the focus over to Lunar Lake much earlier to get it to market six months to a year earlier than planned. If Intel were so desperate to learn to do things the disaggregated way, they should've tried their experiments on a lower volume product instead of doing it on their high volume bread and butter product. I think it was sheer arrogance of Intel to think that the public would lap up whatever they put on the market and that arrogance caused Arrow Lake to fail in the end. It wouldn't have mattered that much if the only thing AMD had was 9950X but they really changed the perception of Zen 5 overnight with 9800X3D, forcing everyone to ask, "Arrow Lake? Whatever the heck for???".
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,552
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I upgraded my Z690 ACE system from a 12600K to a 14700K.

Theoretically it should be safe from degradation due to being on the latest BIOS as of today's date prior to even installing the CPU.
It has a 280mm AIO with a LGA1700 contact frame which appears to be barely sufficient to keep it from thermal throttling under full load.





The rig will be running 24/7 running Folding@Home on the GPU which is a lightly threaded workload for CPU purposes (usually) so I should be hitting max 1T boost with at least some regularity.
I will monitor for any degradation or instability.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
26,746
15,785
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I upgraded my Z690 ACE system from a 12600K to a 14700K.

Theoretically it should be safe from degradation due to being on the latest BIOS as of today's date prior to even installing the CPU.
It has a 280mm AIO with a LGA1700 contact frame which appears to be barely sufficient to keep it from thermal throttling under full load.

View attachment 112906

View attachment 112907

The rig will be running 24/7 running Folding@Home on the GPU which is a lightly threaded workload for CPU purposes (usually) so I should be hitting max 1T boost with at least some regularity.
I will monitor for any degradation or instability.
I would love to see the temps and if any degradation running the CPUs on PG or some other demanding app where the cores are at 100% load 24/7 for days.
 
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