Question DEGRADING Raptor lake CPUs

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Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
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I noticed some reports about degrading i9 13900K and KF processors.

I experienced this problem myself, when I ran it at 6 GHz, light load (3 threads of Cinebench), at acceptable temperature and non extreme voltage. After only few minutes it crashed, and then it could not run even at stock setting without bumping the voltage a bit.

I was thinking about the cause for this and I believe the problem is, that people do not appreciate, how high these frequencies are and that the real comfortable frequency limit of these CPUs is probably at something like 5500 or 5600 MHz. These CPUs are made on a same process (possibly improved somehow) on which Alder lake CPUs were made. See the frequencies 12900KS runs at. The frequency improvement of the new process tweak may not be so high as some people presume.

Those 13900K CPUs are probably highly binned to be able to find those which contain some cores which can reliably run at 5800 MHz. Some of the 13900K probably have little/no OC reserve left and pushing them will cause them to degrade/break.

The conclusion for me is that the best you can do to your 13900K or 13900KF is to disable the 5800 MHz peak, which will allow you to offset the voltage lower, and then set all core maximal frequency to some comfortable level, I guess the maximum level could be 5600 MHz. With lowered voltage this frequency should be gentler to the processor than running it at original 5500 MHz at higher voltage. You can also run it at lower frequencies, allowing for even higher voltage drop, but then the CPU is slowly loosing its sense (unless you want some high efficiency CPU intended for heavy multithread loads).

Running it with some power consumption limit dependent on your cooling solution to keep the CPU at sensible temperature will help too for sure.
 
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Storm-Chaser

Senior member
Mar 18, 2020
236
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@Kocicak

Interested in the Gigabyte 6.0GHz tune... what LLC were you running for that and did you notice very much vcore fluctuation under full load? I'm assuming it was holding 1.43v under max load for those two 6.0GHz cores?

A day later, what are your thoughts on it. Seems good from my armchair, in the sense that you are boosting higher than stock with less vcore? IIRC single core max package voltage is 1.6v or thereabouts. And we have seen ADL go 1.6v single core.... without overclocking.
 

Kocicak

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2019
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I just selected Instant 6 GHz in the CPU Upgrade bios setting. I did not set anything else.

I was surprised, that the voltage fluctuated a lot during the load, 1.43V was the maximum of that, it went down to 1.35V if I remember correctly.

IMO it is almost useless without increasing the 5.5 GHz limit for all P cores.
 

Storm-Chaser

Senior member
Mar 18, 2020
236
76
71
IMO it is almost useless without increasing the 5.5 GHz limit for all P cores.
Well that sounds almost ideal. You have two of the best P cores @ 6.0GHz and the six remaining at 5.5-5.6GHz? If you can set it up that way?

Why is it almost useless in your book? Isn't it better than having your processor throttle to 5.8 on two cores?
 

Storm-Chaser

Senior member
Mar 18, 2020
236
76
71
I just selected Instant 6 GHz in the CPU Upgrade bios setting. I did not set anything else.

I was surprised, that the voltage fluctuated a lot during the load, 1.43V was the maximum of that, it went down to 1.35V if I remember correctly.

IMO it is almost useless without increasing the 5.5 GHz limit for all P cores.
And what about the jump to 1.47 volts, was that just a small bump and then back to normal?
 
Jul 27, 2020
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I run my 12900k at 1.64 volts / 5.6ghz all core. Run around hogsmewad in hogwarts, cpu temps hit 106c. No signs of degradation
That's a lot of voltage! I was nervous setting my CPU from 1.10V to 1.17V, where it is right now.

106C is well below the default max of 115C so I guess you are using a good AIO cooler?
 

Timmah!

Golden Member
Jul 24, 2010
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I do not believe that the "K" CPUs will be used for any professional type of use.

13600K and 13700K may still have some safe OC headroom left, but 13900K may be sold close to what the silicone is capable of.

The stress I subjected the CPU to was not extreme at all, and if some of the CPUs are really weak, we will see some increased failure rate in upcoming months. It only matters, what is the percentage of these weak CPUs, and if the problem are just random infrequent defects or if the problem is deeper and the manufacturing process itself is not suited for these extreme frequencies.

What? It can do almost 40k in Cinebench. Thats very close to 24core Threadripper 5000 and 32 core TR 3000 numbers. It can absolutely be used for professional type of use like say archviz rendering.
 

Wolverine2349

Senior member
Oct 9, 2022
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Oh, i see, my bad. What do you meant by professional use then? Overclocking and stuff like that?


That professional high end intense use will degrade the 13900Ks CPUs even at stock?

Well I got the e-cores disabled on my 13900KS and it clocked at 5.6GHz all core and 5GHz ring 1.26V LLC6 and temps are excellent on air as they only average mid 80s in CInebench R23. Where as regular 13900K, I needed 1.33V or even 1.35V LLC6 for stability at 5.6GHz e-cores off and 5GHz ring and temps averaged low to mid 90s in Cinebench R23. 13900KS even uses 30 to 40 watts less too under full load.

The superior binning of 13900KS so worth it on air cooling even though not clocked higher.
 
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Timmah!

Golden Member
Jul 24, 2010
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That professional high end intense use will degrade the 13900Ks CPUs even at stock?

Well I got the e-cores disabled on my 13900KS and it clocked at 5.6GHz all core and 5GHz ring 1.26V LLC6 and temps are excellent on air as they only average mid 80s in CInebench R23. Where as regular 13900K, I needed 1.33V or even 1.35V LLC6 for stability at 5.6GHz e-cores off and 5GHz ring and temps averaged low to mid 90s in Cinebench R23. 13900KS even uses 30 to 40 watts less too under full load.

The superior binning of 13900KS so worth it on air cooling even though not clocked higher.

Oh, i see...at last. Lol.

Regarding degrading at stock, i would not know. We honestly dont know what exactly went wrong with OPs CPU and whether its not just random chance that is no concern to anyone else. Maybe just bad luck, dud of CPU.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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That professional high end intense use will degrade the 13900Ks CPUs even at stock?
??

You know you just said that "short tall person there."
LOL...

Professionals will not use a 13900K.
There is a reason why its a consumer cpu, and not a workstation, or a server, which most professionals use

But seeing how the 7800X3D is sprinting itself to meltdown, i would not be surprised if we start seeing the same on the 13900k, as it has a similar boosting profile.
So yes, keeping the cpu in stock, and with how aggressive the boosting profile is on Raptor, i would not be suprised if it gets degraded much quicker then any other intel cpu you had, with the possible exception on Wolfdale and Yorktown, which i can tell you i killed way too many to count by giving it too much voltage.
 
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A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
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??

You know you just said that "short tall person there."
LOL...

Professionals will not use a 13900K.
There is a reason why its a consumer cpu, and not a workstation, or a server, which most professionals use

But seeing how the 7800X3D is sprinting itself to meltdown, i would not be surprised if we start seeing the same on the 13900k, as it has a similar boosting profile.
So yes, keeping the cpu in stock, and with how aggressive the boosting profile is on Raptor, i would not be suprised if it gets degraded much quicker then any other intel cpu you had, with the possible exception on Wolfdale and Yorktown, which i can tell you i killed way too many to count by giving it too much voltage.
You posted this at the exact time I was having thoughts while making a late night sandwich. I was reflecting on kochak's posts from a few weeks ago about smelling burning plastic and remembered there were two isolated incidents in the last 3 months where my few gens older intel system emitted a melting plastic smell but quickly went away. I've not noticed any burn marks on my mobo as of this post but I'll be taking a closer look late this week when we've got some decent weather and I can bring it outside + a portable spotlight. not noticed any strange behavior from the computer either.
 

A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
4,351
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Unfortunatly, I do not think so.
He makes a valid point. The 13900K or 7950X are prosumer hardware by today's definition. They lack the io and expandabilities of Xeon W or TR. And obviously not server grade hardware. If you value your time and every minute lost waiting is money lost then you'll step up to the big boys of hardware.
 

Thunder 57

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2007
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He makes a valid point. The 13900K or 7950X are prosumer hardware by today's definition. They lack the io and expandabilities of Xeon W or TR. And obviously not server grade hardware. If you value your time and every minute lost waiting is money lost then you'll step up to the big boys of hardware.

Of course not, but what if you do not need a bunch of I/O?
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,894
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Of course not, but what if you do not need a bunch of I/O?

then how does it classify as a professional system? Just because a professional use it?
Then if a professional sushi chef uses a 2 dollar knife, is that the same as a professional 2000 dollar Japanese sushi knife?

Its like if a car was designed as family sedan (unmoded)... how is it a Nascar race car?
Same concept.

the 13900f was not designed for professional, and working enterprise enviorments.
They won't even use it in studios, unless its to debug a game or software meant for consumers.
There are Xeons Big and Small, Thread Rippers, and EYPC's for "professional" environments, and they have there own rules, unless you go into HEDT, where some of them are similar, but they are still different from real production machines.

Can a professional use a consumer cpu?
Sure... he can... can he use it for professional settings... i don't think he would like to unless its his only option.
Will businesses use consumer stuff... only on the low low end like cubical office.
Will studio's and production companies use consumer..

NO... there on the big boys, or Apple, which is a hybrid of professional / consumer.
 
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