Dell U2410

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T2k

Golden Member
Feb 24, 2004
1,664
5
0
Originally posted by: Winterpool
Don't think anyone's mentioned this here: the Brits at TFT Central have published perhaps the first formal review of the Dell U2410.

The most surprising thing I took away from their review: despite having a newer, arguably superior version of the same LG.Display H-IPS panel, the Dell U2410 does not improve on the HP LP2475w in all respects, viz:

- despite the vaunted factory calibration, Dell U2410 deltaE was worse than the LP2475w 'out of the box'
- inferior blacks and contrast to the LP2475w and the (PVA) Dell 2408WFP
- owing to above specs, U2410 not as ideal for video / movie watching
- '12-bit LUT didn't make too much difference'

However, like all other observers, TFT Central found the Dell's sRGB mode 'actually works pretty well', especially compared to the LP2475w's, which 'seemingly did nothing to actually reduce the colour space'.

The only thing that worries me about the Dell U2410 is the sRGB dithering issue in dark areas; otherwise its superior sRGB mode clearly renders it preferable to the LP2475w for most punters.

For some reason you are omitting important parts, let alone simply rewriting some of their conclusions:

1. Aside of calibrated sRGB the calibrated Standard mode showed SUPERIOR results:
"I reverted the preset mode back to 'Standard' via the OSD and carried out the calibration process again. This time I could not get access to the RGB levels, so I just allowed the software to automatically adjust things at a LUT level. Note that this was at a graphics card level, the screen does not feature a hardware LUT. The process was a great improvement! Gamma, colour temperature and luminance remained as before, but colour accuracy was improved significantly. Average dE was now only 0.2, and with a max of only 0.7, LaCie would classify colour fidelity as excellent across the board. This was actually our joint top performer in terms of colour accuracy average, matching the NEC 2490WUXi in dE average."[/b]

2. Calibrated sRGB is actually behind calibrated Standard:
"Colour accuracy was also pleasing, remaining only ever so slightly behind the calibrated 'standard' preset. With average dE of only 0.3, this was a very good result. It's nice to see Dell have addressed the issue from the 2408WFP which did not allow you to use the sRGB simulation mode, while also offering you decent colour fidelity. Nice to finally see an sRGB mode which actually works pretty well!"


3. Once again contrary what you are claiming here they PRAISE the 12-bit LUT:
"I'd recommend sticking with the 'standard' preset for calibration, or if you don't have a colorimeter you can use our calibrated ICC profile. Testing the screen with various colour gradients showed smooth transitions between shades and no sign of banding here. The 12-bit LUT is partly responsible for this as it provides a huge palette of colours for the screen to utilise, and its main function is to help ensure there are no issues with gradients. Given some of the issues previous generations have had in this regard (and in fact made the problem of banding quite infamous), it was probably a wise move to include this LUT and make sure they got it right first time."


4. And of course, end results are the opposite what you are claiming here - it BEATS the HP and matches the all-time-best NEC:
"Once calibrated however (and once you've found you need to leave the screen in 'standard' mode to do this!), the U2410 offered the best dE average results we have seen in our reviews. At 0.2 average, it matched the record holder, the NEC 2490WUXi, a screen aimed at colour enthusiasts primarily and which featured an effective hardware LUT calibration method as well. dE maximum for the U2410 was 0.7, where the NEC just pipped it with a maximum of 0.5. The NEC remains our overall champion...just; but the Dell U2410 was very impressive in this test. Colour accuracy has improved through Dell's generations as well, from 0.8 average in the 2407WFP-HC, to 0.5 in the 2408WFP, and now to 0.2 average. The U2410 also just beat the HP LP2475W (which uses a very similar panel part) which came in at 0.3, "


Question raises itself: how about actually 1. reading the article and 2. quoting it instead of spreading false BS?
 

T2k

Golden Member
Feb 24, 2004
1,664
5
0
PS in case you're challenged by their language: they said "out of the box" was disappointing but as soon as someone calibrates it or simply downloads THEIR profile it beats almost everything.
 

Winterpool

Senior member
Mar 1, 2008
830
0
0
My apologies if anyone got the wrong impression from my selective quotes. Anyone who reads the TFT Central review would know that this is an excellent monitor. My surprise, and my comments, noted that the Dell U2410 didn't beat the HP in everything, given the fact it uses a later rev of the same LG.Display H-IPS panel and presumably has superior processing tech (eg the 12-bit LUT). I certainly didn't mean to suggest that after calibration the Dell wasn't the superior display. The 'out of the box' experience is important to some punters because the majority of people who buy this monitor, I suspect, will not shell out for hardware calibration. I have certain doubts about simply using someone else's profile as well (currently there are users on the Hard|Forum who are reporting little improvement after using the TFT profile, though these appear to be purely subjective reactions on their part).

TFT Central's attitude towards the Dell's 12-bit LUT is a bit confusing. They attribute the smooth colour gradations at least partly to the 12-bit LUT, but then conclude 'in practice, the 12-bit LUT didn't make too much difference compared with previous models really'. TFT wrote that, not me! The reference to 12-bit LUT in fact making a positive difference is in the section on calibrating 'Standard' mode, so perhaps they meant that it doesn't make much difference in other modes (eg sRGB)? We already know there is some sort of dithering issue in the 'narrower' gamut modes (sRGB and Adobe), which XTKnight believes may be to do with the 8 to 12 to 10-bit conversions (source -> LUT -> panel) all then transformed into sRGB in real time.

One of the biggest things I took away from the TFT Central review was the impression that the Dell U2410 would make a superb yet affordable display for graphics and video professionals. After calibration the U2410 was comparable to the much more expensive NEC -- yet a Dell U2410 and a hardware calibration kit would still be hundreds cheaper than an NEC. If I were running an advertising agency, design firm, etc, on a limited budget, the Dell U2410 would prove a godsend.

For most tech enthusiasts, however, the issue remains: which monitor provides the best visual experience in sRGB -- I mean without paying over a grand for an NEC LCD2490WUXi, heh. The Dell U2410 seems like it's almost there -- it's certainly a marked improvement over the LP2475w in this respect -- and if the sRGB dithering issue can be resolved satisfactorily, I am fairly certain this is the monitor I will be buying for Christmas 2009.

T2k, I must confess I am rather startled by your reception of my previous post. If any readers peruse my posting history on this forum, I trust you'll see I have no fanboy / eP / master of the universe agenda. As to the Dell U2410, I want this monitor to turn out well, as a qualite 23 or 24-inch 1920x1200 IPS for under $500 has been my great wish for several years now. I remember the days when I wondered if I could ever save enough $ for the old 23-inch Apple Cinema Display...
 

Synomenon

Lifer
Dec 25, 2004
10,542
6
81
Is installing the U2410's driver from Dell's website necessary or recommended? I downloaded the driver, unzipped it then right clicked on the INF file to install, but I get a message that says:

"The INF file you selected does not support this method of installation"


When I go to the device manager, right click on the "Generic PnP Monitor" (the one for the U2410) and click on "Update Driver Software..." I browse my computer to the folder I extracted the driver to (the one downloaded from Dell's site) and point to the exact file (the only one that appears when I go to that folder) I get a message that says:

"Windows encountered a problem installing the driver software for your device

Windows found driver software for your device but encountered an error while attempting to install it.

Dell U2410(Digital)

The system cannot find the file specified."


I've tried downloading the driver again and extracting it to a different folder. Keep getting the same error. I'm running Windows 7 RC x64 and have downloaded the driver for Windows 7.
 

T2k

Golden Member
Feb 24, 2004
1,664
5
0
Originally posted by: Winterpool
My apologies if anyone got the wrong impression from my selective quotes. Anyone who reads the TFT Central review would know that this is an excellent monitor. My surprise, and my comments, noted that the Dell U2410 didn't beat the HP in everything, given the fact it uses a later rev of the same LG.Display H-IPS panel and presumably has superior processing tech (eg the 12-bit LUT). I certainly didn't mean to suggest that after calibration the Dell wasn't the superior display. The 'out of the box' experience is important to some punters because the majority of people who buy this monitor, I suspect, will not shell out for hardware calibration. I have certain doubts about simply using someone else's profile as well (currently there are users on the Hard|Forum who are reporting little improvement after using the TFT profile, though these appear to be purely subjective reactions on their part).

TFT Central's attitude towards the Dell's 12-bit LUT is a bit confusing. They attribute the smooth colour gradations at least partly to the 12-bit LUT, but then conclude 'in practice, the 12-bit LUT didn't make too much difference compared with previous models really'. TFT wrote that, not me! The reference to 12-bit LUT in fact making a positive difference is in the section on calibrating 'Standard' mode, so perhaps they meant that it doesn't make much difference in other modes (eg sRGB)? We already know there is some sort of dithering issue in the 'narrower' gamut modes (sRGB and Adobe), which XTKnight believes may be to do with the 8 to 12 to 10-bit conversions (source -> LUT -> panel) all then transformed into sRGB in real time.

One of the biggest things I took away from the TFT Central review was the impression that the Dell U2410 would make a superb yet affordable display for graphics and video professionals. After calibration the U2410 was comparable to the much more expensive NEC -- yet a Dell U2410 and a hardware calibration kit would still be hundreds cheaper than an NEC. If I were running an advertising agency, design firm, etc, on a limited budget, the Dell U2410 would prove a godsend.

For most tech enthusiasts, however, the issue remains: which monitor provides the best visual experience in sRGB -- I mean without paying over a grand for an NEC LCD2490WUXi, heh. The Dell U2410 seems like it's almost there -- it's certainly a marked improvement over the LP2475w in this respect -- and if the sRGB dithering issue can be resolved satisfactorily, I am fairly certain this is the monitor I will be buying for Christmas 2009.

T2k, I must confess I am rather startled by your reception of my previous post. If any readers peruse my posting history on this forum, I trust you'll see I have no fanboy / eP / master of the universe agenda. As to the Dell U2410, I want this monitor to turn out well, as a qualite 23 or 24-inch 1920x1200 IPS for under $500 has been my great wish for several years now. I remember the days when I wondered if I could ever save enough $ for the old 23-inch Apple Cinema Display...

After reading your reply I apologize for my wording - I got the wrong impression, it seems.

For some reason it seemed someone is trying to downplay this monitor - which would be very bad because I think this is a very good unit especially for this kind of money.

With this unit on the market I just changed my mind and will get few of this instead of spending a lot more on one DreamColor; 10-bit per channel doesn't worth that much for me, this 12-bit LUT should do fine for my video/multimedia endeavors.
 

yours truly

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2006
1,026
1
81
Originally posted by: T2k
PS in case you're challenged by their language: they said "out of the box" was disappointing but as soon as someone calibrates it or simply downloads THEIR profile it beats almost everything.

T2k, I'm a bit thick and am having problems downloading their settings. They seem to be using ICC (?) files or something and I can't install them

Are there a bunch of numbers I can punch in myself via the menu instead?

Thanks!
 

PurdueRy

Lifer
Nov 12, 2004
13,837
4
0
Originally posted by: hopeless74
Originally posted by: T2k
PS in case you're challenged by their language: they said "out of the box" was disappointing but as soon as someone calibrates it or simply downloads THEIR profile it beats almost everything.

T2k, I'm a bit thick and am having problems downloading their settings. They seem to be using ICC (?) files or something and I can't install them

Are there a bunch of numbers I can punch in myself via the menu instead?

Thanks!

You're hopeless....74

Here is a thread I responded to regarding color management. Should give you most anything you need to know. Let me know if you need any additional help and make sure to tell me what operating system you are using.

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...t_key=y&keyword1=color
 

yours truly

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2006
1,026
1
81
guys I've started to notice there's a pink hint to my new monitor

It's strangely more evident on my mouse cursor than anything else so far.

Is there anything I can do to make it go away or am I stuck with it?
 

T2k

Golden Member
Feb 24, 2004
1,664
5
0
The "purple snake" issue (HDTVs used to have this) or something different?
 

T2k

Golden Member
Feb 24, 2004
1,664
5
0
Originally posted by: hopeless74
Originally posted by: T2k
PS in case you're challenged by their language: they said "out of the box" was disappointing but as soon as someone calibrates it or simply downloads THEIR profile it beats almost everything.

T2k, I'm a bit thick and am having problems downloading their settings. They seem to be using ICC (?) files or something and I can't install them

Are there a bunch of numbers I can punch in myself via the menu instead?

Thanks!

What's your OS?
 

yours truly

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2006
1,026
1
81
Originally posted by: T2k
The "purple snake" issue (HDTVs used to have this) or something different?

argh! don't mention the purple snakes. My old Panasonic PX600 was littered with them. It used to drive me nuts.

Strangely this pink hue (?) has disappeared now. I uninstalled the ICC profile from that website (it was no good) and the problem has rectified itself.

I'm going to stop tinkering around with this monitor because I don't know what I'm doing, and I'll end up breaking it
 

Luddite

Senior member
Nov 24, 2003
232
3
81
Originally posted by: PurdueRy
Originally posted by: hopeless74
Originally posted by: T2k
PS in case you're challenged by their language: they said "out of the box" was disappointing but as soon as someone calibrates it or simply downloads THEIR profile it beats almost everything.

T2k, I'm a bit thick and am having problems downloading their settings. They seem to be using ICC (?) files or something and I can't install them

Are there a bunch of numbers I can punch in myself via the menu instead?

Thanks!

You're hopeless....74

Here is a thread I responded to regarding color management. Should give you most anything you need to know. Let me know if you need any additional help and make sure to tell me what operating system you are using.

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...t_key=y&keyword1=color

Purdue, could you possibly explain something I've been having difficulty grasping:

1). Why do some of the colors in sRGB images which are not color managed reportedly look oversaturated on a wide gamut monitor? And what does the 'over' in oversaturated mean exactly. Is it just more vibrancy than one is used to compared to a standard monitor, or does it imply actual color incorrectness of some sort. Does having the WG monitor correctly calibrated affect/help this at all?

2). How does the ICC profile for the sRGB image make the wide gamut monitor display it better or correctly?

3). Also, why do some wide gamut monitors (NEC 2690) display the same number of colors (67 mil) as standard gamut monitors? Does gamut not have anything to do with the number of colours? I see Dell lists the U2410 as being able to display 1 billion colors.

Thanks.
 

PurdueRy

Lifer
Nov 12, 2004
13,837
4
0
Originally posted by: Luddite
Originally posted by: PurdueRy
Originally posted by: hopeless74
Originally posted by: T2k
PS in case you're challenged by their language: they said "out of the box" was disappointing but as soon as someone calibrates it or simply downloads THEIR profile it beats almost everything.

T2k, I'm a bit thick and am having problems downloading their settings. They seem to be using ICC (?) files or something and I can't install them

Are there a bunch of numbers I can punch in myself via the menu instead?

Thanks!

You're hopeless....74

Here is a thread I responded to regarding color management. Should give you most anything you need to know. Let me know if you need any additional help and make sure to tell me what operating system you are using.

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...t_key=y&keyword1=color

Purdue, could you possibly explain something I've been having difficulty grasping:

1). Why do some of the colors in sRGB images which are not color managed reportedly look oversaturated on a wide gamut monitor? And what does the 'over' in oversaturated mean exactly. Is it just more vibrancy than one is used to compared to a standard monitor, or does it imply actual color incorrectness of some sort. Does having the WG monitor correctly calibrated affect/help this at all?

2). How does the ICC profile for the sRGB image make the wide gamut monitor display it better or correctly?

3). Also, why do some wide gamut monitors (NEC 2690) display the same number of colors (67 mil) as standard gamut monitors? Does gamut not have anything to do with the number of colours? I see Dell lists the U2410 as being able to display 1 billion colors.

Thanks.

1. They look oversaturated because in a non-managed environment, the monitor has no idea what the correct color is to display. Colors are all relative on a computer. The OS has to decide what each address(i.e. 255,200,235) refers to color wise. For example, on a monitor, 255,0,0 is the most red color the monitor can display. If you go and expand this gamut, the red color gets "more red". So you can see the problem here. This is where color profiles come in.

The best way I can describe the look of a sRGB image on a wide gamut monitor is "over saturated". However, that's really not quite correct. Yes, colors are more bold but there is also some color shift. Skin tones drift from having some yellow in them to being very red dominent, greens tend to "glow", etc.

2. When you save a image in sRGB the program saves information about what exact shade of red 255,0,0 is. The program can then use a look up table to determine that, while the image wanted the most red color possible, it was using the sRGB gamut and not the adobe RGB gamut(wide). Therefore, 255,0,0 in sRGB is 200,0,0(a guess) in AdobeRGB. This is not the most red color that the monitor can display but it is very close to the correct color that was originally intended. So a .icc profile is literally a giant look up table telling a program exactly how large the gamut of the monitor is so that it can "transcode" from other color gamuts to the monitor color gamut.

3. How many colors they can display depends entirely on the panel technology. Right now most all panels are 6 or 8 bit. This is the determining factor in how many individual colors can be displayed. The U2410 has a 12 bit look up table. This helps color accuracy a bit but it really isn't what the total number of displayable colors is dependent on.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,776
31
81
Darn, it sounds like this monitor is just as much a mixed bag as the rest. I was hoping for the end-all, be-all.
 
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