Delusion and General Stupidity

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mruffin75

Senior member
May 19, 2007
343
0
0
fanboy-ism is everywhere...including here...

I've seen conversations on here along the lines of :

"Hi, I've got a software problem, only one core is being used by the software..how do I go about making the 2nd core of my system used as well?"

"get a C2D system dood! That's how you'll fix your problem!!"

The problem was purely software!! There was nothing hardware related at all! Yet this person was trying to tell the OP that he needed to spend $400-500 on new hardware.
 

secretanchitman

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
9,352
23
91
wow....i dont even know what to say to people like that.

c2d/c2q > athlon/phenom. get over it. its been like that since it first came out in 2006.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,221
608
126
I really didn't see much to laugh at there? Especially considering the site's name. You get to see a lot worse from a lot smarter folks regarding a lot of matters. (ATI vs NV, Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD, Apple vs PC, etc..) I thought the overall posts were very modest. There are a few people posting in that page and I saw only one person posting in serious denial - And he doesn't seem to be a jerk, at least.
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81
Originally posted by: dmens
it was in i.r.t. to 65nm K8 cache delay and AMD's marketing line saying that the reason the cache delay got worse from 90nm to 65nm was because of their desire for "K8 scalability" which makes no zero sense. i said it was just process scaling but amdzone would have none of that, lol. deliberately running a L2 cache slower won't win much on power, and will kill performance, so what's the point.

Unfortunately for your theory, AMD told the truth.

Originally posted by: Aluvus
Originally posted by: dmens
it was in i.r.t. to 65nm K8 cache delay and AMD's marketing line saying that the reason the cache delay got worse from 90nm to 65nm was because of their desire for "K8 scalability" which makes no zero sense. i said it was just process scaling but amdzone would have none of that, lol. deliberately running a L2 cache slower won't win much on power, and will kill performance, so what's the point.

also 10 years ago i was in high school still so yeah no chance of knowing anything about anything back then.

For those playing at home, the official explanation was that it was to give them breathing room to introduce chips with much larger L2 caches if needed. Whether that is true or not is of course open to debate.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuch...howdoc.aspx?i=2893&p=3

They never did release Barcelona chips with drastically larger caches. So if that genuinely was the reasoning, it ultimately didn't do them any good.

It is true. Facts aren't really open to debate. Of course, whether or not you should believe me is open to debate.

Also note that the latency went from 12 to 14 cycles, not 12 to 20; there are some complicated reasons behind why the cache latency measurement apps get the wrong answer. My own latency measurement program can produce the correct result.
 

dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,274
959
136
Originally posted by: CTho9305
Unfortunately for your theory, AMD told the truth

heh, that was the response i got at amdzone.

if scaling was on the dot, can you explain why the latency had to go up just to allow the possibility of a larger and slower cache?
 

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
1
81
Originally posted by: dmens
Originally posted by: CTho9305
Unfortunately for your theory, AMD told the truth

heh, that was the response i got at amdzone.

if scaling was on the dot, can you explain why the latency had to go up just to allow the possibility of a larger and slower cache?

Presumably so whatever control logic there was could be reused across the versions. It would definitely reduce the design complexity. I'm speculating, but I would imagine the validation resources required also go way up if the different cache sizes have different latencies. You can't just assume that because your design works with an n cycle latency means it'll work with an n+1 or n-1 latency. It's naive to assume that changing latencies won't expose new bugs/quirks. Compare the L2 latencies for the various existing AMD CPUs - I'm pretty sure they don't change by size (any change would be by revision). You can also check die photos to see that the different sizes weren't all just down-bins, but there were really separate tape-outs.
 

tofumonster

Member
May 25, 2007
135
0
0
"My experience with Phenom is that's it's not a bad cpu, yes it could do with more clockspeed but 2.4 sees it toe to toe with q6600, so I think a lot of people are buying into this negative marketing campaign coming from intel."

Well THERE'S a knee-slapper. Hahahaha
 

dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,274
959
136
Originally posted by: CTho9305
Presumably so whatever control logic there was could be reused across the versions. It would definitely reduce the design complexity. I'm speculating, but I would imagine the validation resources required also go way up if the different cache sizes have different latencies. You can't just assume that because your design works with an n cycle latency means it'll work with an n+1 or n-1 latency. It's naive to assume that changing latencies won't expose new bugs/quirks. Compare the L2 latencies for the various existing AMD CPUs - I'm pretty sure they don't change by size (any change would be by revision). You can also check die photos to see that the different sizes weren't all just down-bins, but there were really separate tape-outs.

i find that hard to believe because the very first thing done with a new process is to determine the size of the big cache. before any other studies are done, they figure out the absolute smallest bitcell they can create, then the cache size is set, then all the other studies begin. the cache size sets the economies of scale and price, hence everything else as well. if the cache size was determined up front, why would they design with the option to make it larger, knowing that the would be economically undesirable?

that said, even if the bigger cache option existed and never materialized, how hard is it to move the data strobe back to the pre-validated fetch time of 12 cycles? and since AMD actually performs separate tapeouts with chopped caches, there is no way they would force that pipeline to be systolic and waste validation effort on multiple products.

and lastly, i find it incredibly difficult to believe that the PR mouthpiece of any company will ever tell the bare truth. it is not a matter of if but how strong the bullshit detector reads. and that particular explanation for a common issue with shrinks definitely set off alarms.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
We all know fanboy exists. But why do you people go to "AMDZone" (what do you expect from a site with that name) and read and care about what fanboys talk about? For all the post in that thread, I actually think some posts are fair and the some people have no problem admitting AMD's problem, like the very first post. And there are places for Phenom, the price is quite good for quad core and the performance is decent if you are not comparing it to an overclocked intel quad. And AMD do have advantage in mobo and and prices.

Those are people with their money and their opinion, they have their way of using their computer, and maybe Phenom is better for the price they wanna pay and how they wanna use their computer. Why do you people feel the need to bash those people, do you really need something to make you feel like you are superior, smarter then others?
 

harpoon84

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2006
1,084
0
0
Originally posted by: dmens
yep people can believe whatever they want, but doesn't change the fact that amdzone is hilarious and a primo trolling target.. check it, those crazies are serious:

http://abinstein.blogspot.com/
http://scientiasblog.blogspot.com/

I've read scientia's blog, he needs 10000 words just to get his AMD biased point across, unbelievable. He must think that the pure volume of BS would overwhelm reality or something.
 

v8envy

Platinum Member
Sep 7, 2002
2,720
0
0
Originally posted by: The Boston Dangler

for those of us in the civilized world, 50C equals 122F. throw another shrimp on the barbie, ya chucklehead.

That could be ambient case temperatures. I could see a micro-atx case full of cables and no working fans hitting 50C ambient, no problem.

It's pretty sad. CompUSA near me has a whole wall of Phenom 9500s for $150, and yet I'm not even in the slightest bit tempted. Maybe I'll change my tune once they're $100...

 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: rchiu
Why do you people feel the need to bash those people, do you really need something to make you feel like you are superior, smarter then others?

I view it as more of harmless venting. Some folks need to vent off some steam with their frustrations over seeming Reality Distortion Fields surrounding certain product lines.

I say let it out, vent it and feel better. It's harmless so long as it doesn't turn into a hobby.

In truth, I think many would agree, Anandtech forums these days is fairly mild in terms of the AMD vs Intel flaming that use to occur. Not perfect, but bottling frustration up isn't healthy either.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: rchiu
We all know fanboy exists. But why do you people go to "AMDZone" (what do you expect from a site with that name) and read and care about what fanboys talk about? For all the post in that thread, I actually think some posts are fair and the some people have no problem admitting AMD's problem, like the very first post. And there are places for Phenom, the price is quite good for quad core and the performance is decent if you are not comparing it to an overclocked intel quad. And AMD do have advantage in mobo and and prices.

Those are people with their money and their opinion, they have their way of using their computer, and maybe Phenom is better for the price they wanna pay and how they wanna use their computer. Why do you people feel the need to bash those people, do you really need something to make you feel like you are superior, smarter then others?

Because we're not fanboys? At least not most of us. This is just as hilarious as probably the Intel supporters/denial-boys were when A64 was stomping the $%&^ out of P4 Prescott.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Originally posted by: harpoon84
Originally posted by: dmens
yep people can believe whatever they want, but doesn't change the fact that amdzone is hilarious and a primo trolling target.. check it, those crazies are serious:

http://abinstein.blogspot.com/
http://scientiasblog.blogspot.com/

I've read scientia's blog, he needs 10000 words just to get his AMD biased point across, unbelievable. He must think that the pure volume of BS would overwhelm reality or something.

Its like magic... chant mystical words and reality bends...
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: amenx
If you really want to go off the deep end... http://sharikou.blogspot.com/

Delusional to the extreme.

I find it sad to see folks who wear this AMD/Intel rivalry like a badge of crusades on their shoulders.

Surely a better cause in the name of humanity can be found. Why not blog on the travesties of human rights violations in Africa, China, India?

Instead they choose to spend their time rallying to the noble (?) cause of defending one corporation's battle against another corporation. All over who makes the most financial gain? What a waste, it's just business.

That's not even geeky sad, that's just your plain'ole everyday "ahh" sad.
 

Zstream

Diamond Member
Oct 24, 2005
3,395
277
136
Originally posted by: tofumonster
"My experience with Phenom is that's it's not a bad cpu, yes it could do with more clockspeed but 2.4 sees it toe to toe with q6600, so I think a lot of people are buying into this negative marketing campaign coming from intel."

Well THERE'S a knee-slapper. Hahahaha

You do know that at stock the phenom generally equals the performance of the q6600. It is a little on the -5% margin but still. So please just stop, we all know the q6600 is a better overclocker but if you do not overclock and looking for a cheap combo then AMD all the way.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: Zstream
You do know that at stock the phenom generally equals the performance of the q6600. It is a little on the -5% margin but still.

At stock what? (9600? 9900?) Are you stating that a 2.4GHz Phenom is at performance parity with a Q6600? Scaled for cost parity? Scaled for Power Consumption parity?

I must admit I missed the benchmark reviews you are referring to, everything I have seen tends to show 2.6GHz Phenom < 2.4 GHz Kentsfield in the performance, and << when it comes to performance/watt.

http://www.tomshardware.com/20...om_9600_black_edition/

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuch...ts/showdoc.aspx?i=3153

http://www.lostcircuits.com/cpu/amd_phenom/

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...amd-phenom9600-be.html
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
50C is cool at idle and daily usage? Jesus christ... Did we actually see someone say that about a NEW cpu in this day and age? My god my CPU hits 59C-62C under FULL LOAD, Idle is half that around 25C jesus christ that's a hot CPU idle, wtf is it at load?
 

nyker96

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
5,630
2
81
I don't think this is much surprise coming from AMDZone, I bet in the days of P4 vs A64s or P-D vs X2s all the Intel fan sites are saying similar things to justify them buying Intel cpus. I wouldn't be surprised that many of these people never even own a Intel CPU at home to compare to. Or if they did they wouldn't mention it. I'd be honest I loved AMD from Anthlon years up to X2 vs P-D era. Never considered Intel. AMD did make some great products. Another thing the poster is right about AMD mb been cheaper for the same features sets although the current lack of compatibility for some AM2 boards with Phenom is disappointing. I do hope amd do better and we get some competition in the CPU market if it's not due to AMD slagging off, Intel would have already introduced 45nm quads to the masses by now and probably at a decent price. So yet AMD is slow right now, but we NEED them or we might not even have C2Ds at this point in time.
 
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